fatman mustang 2 front x-member

[68c10owner]

anyone ever used this x-member? i`m thinking about putting it on the frame i just got. any info would be great. thanks

[Glen]

I would strongly reccomend not using that product.

[grnddwn]

If you look in the suspension section there's along indepth post on crossmember sectioning it is definitly a better way to go if your look for more drop or better control arm clearence

[68c10owner]

thanks, i`ll look for it in the suspension area.

glen, why do you not recomend this kit?

[68LSS1]

I have the Stage III kit. With the stock spindles (supplied with kit) it's good for 5" of drop. Could get more with dropped spindles but I didn't primarily get the kit for the drop-that was the third reason. The first, get rid of a bunch of weight. The second was to update the suspension. I plan on driving this everyday and I want it to handle great and wanted rack and pinion steering. The third was to drop it but I'm not going for the "bagged" look.
As far as why anyone would not recommend it, I don't know. Some say the Mustang II ball joints are too small for our trucks but that is a bunch of crap from people who don't know what they are talking about. Those same ball joints are used on many mid and full sized Ford cars. You get unequal length A-arms which is about the best front suspension that you can get for handling. And as Fatman says, "Don't buy our kits if you're building a trailer queen. Buy our kits if you are going to drive it." There is quite a few drag cars running Fatman set ups as they have been around a long time. The Stage III kit looks great too. Polished coil overs and tubular, polished A-arms. I probably have some pix of my set up temp installed I could email if you are interested. Also MOTHERTRUCKERS is an authorized dealer so he can probably save you a few bucks. I do agree that if drop is what your after this would not be the way to go. But try to find some others who ACTUALLY have one.

[68c10owner]

thanks for the input. i would like to see some pics. my address is chopperhead2@juno.com. i do want a "dropped " truck but i still want to drive the thing. i installed a fatman kit on my old `57 p/u but used stock control arms. the fatman kit uses tubular upper arms and sells a tubular lower as well. they look plenty beefy. thanks again

[Longhorn Man]

Does the handeling improvement warrent the time and money spent? in reality, these things wandle bretty dam good to begin with.

[Glen]

I dont want to start a big argument. I just disagree with their build style and geometry, especially on their MII stubs and crossmembers.

[68LSS1]

68c10owner-give me a day or two and I'll get the pix to you.
Longhorn Man-I agree it's not a bad handling truck stock but it doesn't compare to anything rolling of the assembly lines today IMO. My Expedition has smoother steering and better response and it's a tank also. I don't feel that a steering box can compete with a power rack for response, feel or control. My trucks underlying theme is to use the body as that is what I like (if I wanted a new one I'd buy a new one) and bring the drivetrain, interior and suspension to current levels of performance. I also want to push those levels to that of a sports car. There's not a lot of trucks (at least around here) that can do that. A modern Chevy SS truck if you will. Or Chevy's version of the Lightning. The Lightning is sort of what I'm molding it after, or attempting to. I want the performance with fuel economy so I can drive it everyday. I would like the handling and braking to match.

[MOTHERTRUCKERS]

Lets see
pro's
less weight about 400lbs
easier accessability for oil filter,fuel filter etc.
over the counter rebuild parts availability
no header clearance problems
great handling
easy alignments
better brakes


con's
initial cost
ford parts on a CHEVY? are ya nuts?
must be welded on

[SCOTI]

Less weight? Maybe.... but 400lbs???

Easier accessibility? The oil filter accessibility is uneffected by the front suspension, the fuel filter may or may not be affected.

Parts availability? Both are equally available. Would be easier to get a rack than a new steering box @ local parts places.

No header clearance probs? Maybe... maybe not. Chances are your current headers won't clear the new location of the MII rack outlet that the column must attach to. So.... possibly no interference, w/headers built for use w/a MII front suspension.... but you have to pay extra for the new headers (could sell old ones & offset the price). Manifolds on either prob would work w/o issues.

Great handling? Define 'Great'? 60's trucks have never been a threat on road courses & neither have pintos. Now, the MII handles better than the 30+yr old OEM stuff.... sure, but so does a fresh rebuild w/updated truck parts +sway bars.

Alignments? A wash. The edge possibly going to the MII since the bolts are on top of the a-arm attaching plate & easier to access. It's also easier to knock the MII out of alignment vs. the GM set-up.

Better brakes? Stock vs. stock (apples to apples) comparison, I don't think so. Both DISC set-ups come w/single piston calipers. The MII comes stock w/a 10.25" rotor & the truck has 12" rotors. Now if comparing to drums... yes the MII is better. But.... both can have bigger/better aftermarket brake systems adapted.

Initial cost? Although neither is cheap, MII's do cost more than completely rebuilding/upgrading the stock GM stuff.

Ford parts on a Chevy? Most people accept the 9" w/o issue. Good parts are good parts..... irregardless of manufacturer. If it works for you is good enough reason to use it.

Must be welded? Fatmans also makes a bolt-in crossmember for Chevy trucks.

As stated previously.... No offense intended. Just more info for informed decision making.

[68c10owner]

this is exactly what i was looking for. good opinions from both sides. i haven`t decided what to do yet and that is why i put this post out there so i could see who used it and what their experience was with the product.

68lss1, pics would be great and i look forward to seeing them.

fatman does sell a 12" brake rotor for the mII frontend but i`m sure it is expencive. i do have a complete disc brake set up from a 71 that i was going to install and i still might. i just picked up a new frame so i might just put the truck discs on my 68 and go MII on the new frame.

i have to agree with 68lss1 about updating the old to ride like the new. after many thoughts on what way to go with the truck, i think i`m going the same route as him with my truck. i`m also concidering the mII because it`s different and not alot of people are doing it. i know the corvette front and rear kits are popular but out of my price range.

thanks for all of your input and i`m taking into concideration everything you all have said. the bottom line is, it`s my truck and i`ll go any direction i want with it and right now the mII sounds like a good frontend and would probably be just as easy to get parts for, get a alignment,and add airbags too if i want. thanks again

[ratrod67]

I remember reading a couple pages of people having problems with the street rod version of this kit. When they were being used on heavier cars there were problems with the lower control arm mountings cracking and ripping away. There was even a case where an accident was caused by this. I tried to find the post but I can't get into the site. It has some weird page and I can't get past it. I believe that Glen posts on the site and maybe he will remember what I'm talking about. My memory isn't exactly perfect anymore.

[70 Jimmy]

Glen,

Come on man, back your argument up! I love to hear a good backed up oppinion.

[Glen]

The stuff that RATROD speaks of is the lower control arm strut rod eliminators. They eliminate the lower strut rod that keeps the control arm from folding up, back in toward the rear of the fenderwell. For example if you want to go above reasonable usage, imagine the forces pushing back on the lower control arm if you were to hit a curb.....that is the direction I am talking about.

They are not specific to Fatmans stuff, a lot of street rod companies use them and they are probably fine on lightweight highboys. The website mentioned above involved a fat fendered car.

[68LSS1]

Glen, I too would like your input. I won't consider it arguementative. It probably won't change my mind but I wouldn't mind hearing it. Especially of actual proven problems. Could this be something that has be redesigned on the kits? As I'm going for total vehicle enhancement the rotor size is irellevant. I will be using Wilwood or Baer calipers and rotors, 4 wheel disc and a Hydratech system so my braking distances will rival that of a exotic sports car.
SCOTI- beleive him on the weight. I removed the stock crossmember complete and it is a monster. I'd guess the Fatman crossmember to be under 100lbs. In my opinion it is vey capable of supporting the truck and am not concerned even with the hp I plan on running. No steering box, idler and pitman arms. Tubular A-arms. Two people can lift the entire set up. As far as header clearance there will not be a issue. And even by chance if there was you'll have to fab a shaft with a couple joints anyway so you can adjust as necessary for what ever combination you've got. Why is every one ok with putting a massive big block or sectioning the stock crossmember for laying rocker but when it comes to handling everyone just accepts that it's a truck so it never will? Rebuilding the stocker and adding sway bars is fine but it won't handle as well as a new Chevy truck. A trailing arm rear suspension is one of the best ever to come of Detroit. Likewise, the unequal length A-arm suspension is also. Of course that is considering if both are set up properly. What can these trucks or any truck be pushed to if properly set up? I understand you can argue with physics as CG is CG (center of gravity) but again, why do we have to settle for "it handles great for a 25 year old truck" when it may be possible to lay better skid pad numbers than a new Mustang or Camaro? And lastly as far as the welding, the only neccessary is on the Stage III set ups. The Stage I and II are bolt in. On the stage III a gusseted spacer must be welded to the crossmember which could be taken to a welding shop if needed. The motor mounts will not require welding either. That was a well worded and thought out response SCOTI. feel free to respond.

[68LSS1]

Originally posted by Glen
The stuff that RATROD speaks of is the lower control arm strut rod eliminators. They eliminate the lower strut rod that keeps the control arm from folding up, back in toward the rear of the fenderwell. For example if you want to go above reasonable usage, imagine the forces pushing back on the lower control arm if you were to hit a curb.....that is the direction I am talking about.

They are not specific to Fatmans stuff, a lot of street rod companies use them and they are probably fine on lightweight highboys. The website mentioned above involved a fat fendered car.

Well, all I can say is I hope you're wrong but in approximately two years I'll find out what over 750rwhp/700rwtq and (hopefully) launches with the front end 2' in the air can do to it.


If someone wants to host the pix when I dig them out I have 3 or 4 with the kit temporarily installed that everyone can see.
And I don't care what you have or what you build, it's mechanical and it will or can be made to break. I've got a few destroyed 9" rears, powerglides, and such under my belt.

[BigBlockBurris]

Living only 25 minutes from Fatman Fab. I bought a Fatman MII for a first gen camaro. A friend and I rode over to the shop to pick it up and I have NEVER been treated so rude as a customer in my life. It was like they didn't have time for us since I geuss we weren't spending major $$$ with them, but what I spent for the MII kit wasn't exactly cheap either! I spent well over $1500 with them, as I bought the bigger brake kit also. I overlooked the rudeness at the time because, hey it was close, and no shipping right? We'll when I was assembling this "kit" I accidentally tore a wheel seal. No big deal. So I call Fatman back up and ask if he'll sell me a wheel seal since it wasn't an automotive parts store part. He wouldn't sell me the seal, said he only sold kits no parts!
I bought the %&#@* thing from him and he wouldn't sell me a seal! I eventaully found the seal (not a automotive seal) and bought several for $2 a piece. I will NEVER buy anything from those ___holes again! I would the MII conversion again in a minute (fixing to do a Chevy II) but I will not buy anything from Fatass, I mean, Fatman. As for original ??? about strenght. I put this front end under a 68 Camaro with a BB Chevy. Numerous Drag strip and street miles. No problem. I know this isn't a answer but anytime I hear the name Fatman it makes my blood boil!


BBB

[SCOTI]

68LSS1, I was curious so I did some weighing on a scale @ the house.

Naked crossmember.................... 60lbs
73-87 Upper A-arm ..................... 5lbsx2
73-87 Lower A-arm .................... 20lbsx2
Man Steer Box ............................ 20lbs
73-87 Spindle/1.25"rotor assm .. 50lbsx2
Inner/outer tierod + sleeve ........ 5lbsx2
Manual pitman arm ..................... 2lbs
Idler ............................................ 2lbs
Stock length coils ........................ 8lbsx2

Total............................................ 260lbs. Even adding the stock calipers, your @ less than 270lbs. I didn't add shocks or sway bar because they both will have these so it's a wash. Like I said, the MII does weigh less, just not 400lbs less. I'm not guessing here, I actually went to the garage & weighed this stuff, so simple math tells the truth.

Personally, I like the MII stuff on certain apps. I think I've seen you on the pro-touring site, if you research the suspension board, there aren't many handling cars that use MII geometry. It's fine for a cruiser, not for cornering. This is also true for the factory truck stuff.

That being said, Progressive Automotive & Flat Out Engineering both make weld-in crossmembers w/R & P set-ups based on Corvette geometry which is much better than MII. If I were to use a bolt-in crossmember w/R & P, I would prefer the Jim Meyer set-up since it uses Caprice/F-body spindles, rotors, & suspension parts w/a T-bird sourced R & P.

I do believe a truck can be made to handle better & I'm 100% for it as well. I would just hate for someone to spend the $$ for the MII set-up & not out handle a stock, updated, & tuned GM truck set-up. BTW, glad to be a part of an intelligent discussion. Please post the pics of your truck whenever you get the chance.

[Dave Reed]

An informational thread to say the least.
Thanks guys

So, who knows about the Art Morrison chasis'?

[grnddwn]

Jim Meyer makes a sweet frame built to your specs and a really nice front crossmember and no M2 parts

[68LSS1]

SCOTI, I was aware of the Progressive Automotive stuff but I personally didn't like the bolted on spindle adapter. I am not aware of Flat Out Engineering and after a search, didn't find a website. Do you have a link?
I didn't originally plan on going to this extreme but I'm here. If I did do it all over I would give some more consideration to the Jim Meyer frame if I could get him to do a trailing arm set up.
I beleive you on the weight but is there any way the '67-72 stuff weighs more? I know the tie rods, idler/pitman, gear box should all be about the same but I would think the earlier A-arms and crossmember weigh a lot more. Anybody got some off a truck they can weigh?
And yes that's me tooling around on the Pro-touring board. I wish I would of come across that board along time ago. Hoping the Hydratech GP goes through soon!
Later, I'm off to the garage to weigh the Fatman stuff.

[68LSS1]

Crossmember 56
caliper, rotor, pads and spindle 40 x2
upper A-arms 5 x2
lower A-arms 6 x2
complete coilovers 8 x2
rack & pinion (w/all tie rods) 15

The A-arms were weighed with all bolts, bushings, washers or nuts (including ball joints). The spindles were complete, ready to bolt on and included bearings, pads, rotors, calipers, dust cap/nut and adapters. The coilovers were shocks and springs and mounting hardware. In fact only hardware not weighed was bolts/washers/nuts to install crossmember. SCOTI had 260lbs without calipers/pads or shocks to the 189lbs of the Fatman set up.
If anybody has some A-arms, crossmember, or a power steering gearbox off a '67-72 I'd appreciate if it could be weighed. I'd weigh my old stuff but Ed @ MOTHERTRUCKERS has it.

[jack'd up]

I going to do one on my '55 1st series. But have been warned about the fatman front clip. I want to use bags under the front anybody else used one of these clips with bags?
Thanks, Dennis

[Tx Firefighter]

First, the issue of failure of the Mustang II parts was discussed on the HAMB board several years ago. The cars with problems did not have Fatman crossmembers. They were Heidts and other thinner brands.

I have a Fatman ultra low front end under my 54 Chevy. Let me tell you my experience.....

I bought the crossmember from them. They give you a builder's guide that recomends a combo of parts to finish out the installation (brakes, brake hoses, shocks, springs, etc.). I used exactly what they recomended on my car. The front suspension wound up being a couple of inches too narow for my tastes. The rear end was about 4 inches wider than the front end. I was annoyed at it, so I called Fatman and told them they recomended the wrong brake kit (ECI brand brake kit). ECI sells two different kits. One kit does not widen the front end and the other one widens it about 2 inches. I told them they ought to recomend the wider kit that makes the front track 2 inches wider so it would look better. He told me to send them my brake kit back and he would replace it with the other kit to make my front track wider. I had bought all of my brake parts locally and had already run them several thousand miles on my car. He offered to take my stuff, THAT I DID NOT BUY FROM HIM, and replace it with the other parts, free of charge, no strings attached. Brent (Fatman) said he wanted a satisifed customer and would do what ever I wanted to do to be happy.

I wound up getting wheels with an inch less backspacing, which helped the problem. Yes, the front wheels are full reversed and the rear are normal, but it doesn't show with the hubcaps in place.

Am I totally pleased, no. But I didn't want to spend the money to ship that heavy brake stuff to the east coast.

But, I will definitely buy Fatman again, anytime I want MII stuff.