TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!

[GEARBOXGARAGE]

Check out their facebook page, this was posted earlier today. Looks like more options coming soon!
https://www.facebook.com/Total.Cost.Involved?ref=br_tf

[lolife99]

Nice.
Everyone is seeing the $$$ possibilities in producing C10 parts.

They have the pre-'60 trucks covered.
http://www.totalcostinvolved.com/c/2...Classic-Trucks
Surprised it took so long to get to the 60-87 trucks.

[andrewmp6]

I believe jim meyer racing was the first one and a few others came in slowly.But its not just these trucks the early mustang 10 years ago had a small aftermarket but it boomed about 5 years ago.

[GEARBOXGARAGE]

Originally Posted by andrewmp6

I believe jim meyer racing was the first one and a few others came in slowly.But its not just these trucks the early mustang 10 years ago had a small aftermarket but it boomed about 5 years ago.

Yeah, I think Jim Meyer had an offering like 15 years ago, and still do. I'm surprised it is taking everyone else so long to jump on the band wagon!

[andrewmp6]

http://roadstershop.com/ has a full frame that has a irs

[SCOTI]

The 'problem' w/any of these is price. The RS chassis will set you back around 15 large w/o the trick IRS.... That's a difficult chunk to pony up.

[andrewmp6]

Yeah a full frame from anywhere is pricey now,Some places are 8k to 10k for a bare frame.

[slow4dr]

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/1...-amp-D-Project

[aggie91]

I am following it on the pro-touring web site...looks interesting so far...

[slow4dr]

*another update*


The first articles have had a few revisions through development but we're getting close.

Here, Ed is changing the anti-dive angle to 7.5.


A quick tack weld


We also revised the crossmember. We raised it up to frame another inch and put a degree tilted back.


Ed installing the upper plate onto the frame to confirm some simulations.


-Jason

[GEARBOXGARAGE]

Are you guys utilizing a CPP MOD Spindle for your front kit? Would love to see a truck kit come with truck spindles and not Mustang II's.

[slow4dr]

Originally Posted by GEARBOXGARAGE

Are you guys utilizing a CPP MOD Spindle for your front kit? Would love to see a truck kit come with truck spindles and not Mustang II's.

Yep, we are using their '73-'87 spindle on our kit so no MII spindles.

[GEARBOXGARAGE]

Originally Posted by slow4dr

Yep, we are using their '73-'87 spindle on our kit so no MII spindles.

That's great! Can't wait to see the finished product.

[slow4dr]

Originally Posted by GEARBOXGARAGE

That's great! Can't wait to see the finished product.

A pretty big change of plans. In order to use the CPP spindles we wouldn't be able to use the more readily available T-Bird rack without a big compromise in turning radius. The T-Bird power rack is the same rack that most aftermarket companies use to replace a manual MII rack. This rack does not have enough travel to be used on the CPP spindle because the steering arms are too long. The factory steering box has 7" of travel whereas the T-Bird and MII racks have 6". We'd lose 14% of the turning angle if we went this route. The other major compromise is that the tie rod end needs to fit into the spindle from the bottom instead of the top in order to keep the engine in the factory location. Once the tie rod is moved it limits your ability to run 15" & 16" wheels with any sort of backspace/width.

We mocked up our Custom spindle that we use on some of our Pro-Touring builds and it would work very well in this capacity. While this spindle works well in its current applications we feel that making something even more robust would be more fitting. So we will begin designing a new spindle immediately. Should only be a few weeks delay in production.

-J

[GEARBOXGARAGE]

It's awesome that you are keeping with the ideology that 1/2 ton trucks need 1/2 ton truck rated suspension/steering components. Others seem to think MII spindles are sufficient, but let's face it, they were designed for cars that barely tipped the scale past 2,000 lbs. Not to mention the wheel bearings, which I brought up in a conversation recently with another vendor. The conversation seem to go down hill when I started mentioning L10 life for the bearings and how they are over loaded by 150% when ran on a truck weighing in close to 3k. Keep up the great engineering work, I'm quickly becoming more and more of a TCI fan!

[slow4dr]

Originally Posted by GEARBOXGARAGE

It's awesome that you are keeping with the ideology that 1/2 ton trucks need 1/2 ton truck rated suspension/steering components. Others seem to think MII spindles are sufficient, but let's face it, they were designed for cars that barely tipped the scale past 2,000 lbs. Not to mention the wheel bearings, which I brought up in a conversation recently with another vendor. The conversation seem to go down hill when I started mentioning L10 life for the bearings and how they are over loaded by 150% when ran on a truck weighing in close to 3k. Keep up the great engineering work, I'm quickly becoming more and more of a TCI fan!

Our chro-moly pins have proved themselves pretty well over the years. For instance our Road Race Camaro weighs in at 3800 lbs with driver. That car has 8 years of complete and total abuse and not so much as even basic maintenance done to it. It still has the original grease in the original bearings. We know though that the C10 is a different monster all together.

Something that struck us as odd is the OEM C10 spindle pin is smaller than the MII pin. So basically the I/D of the C10 bearing is smaller than the MII bearing. Although the C10 bearings are larger overall, both width and O/D. If GM felt the pin was suffeciently strong enough, who are we to argue? We will base our new spindle pin dimensions off the OEM pin. Ours will just be made out of Chro-Moly. This way replacement parts like rotors and bearings will also be OEM.

-J

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by slow4dr

Our chro-moly pins have proved themselves pretty well over the years. For instance our Road Race Camaro weighs in at 3800 lbs with driver. That car has 8 years of complete and total abuse and not so much as even basic maintenance done to it. It still has the original grease in the original bearings. We know though that the C10 is a different monster all together.

Something that struck us as odd is the OEM C10 spindle pin is smaller than the MII pin. So basically the I/D of the C10 bearing is smaller than the MII bearing. Although the C10 bearings are larger overall, both width and O/D. If GM felt the pin was suffeciently strong enough, who are we to argue? We will base our new spindle pin dimensions off the OEM pin. Ours will just be made out of Chro-Moly. This way replacement parts like rotors and bearings will also be OEM.

-J

While this sounds logical.... Is it?

Wouldn't GM have likely based decisions of the 'pin' design & dimensions w/the vehicles anticipated use in mind which likely wasn't near what the current trends are (autocross specifically). Just wondering out loud here. Obviously you guys put alot of thought into what you design.

[GEARBOXGARAGE]

Originally Posted by slow4dr

Our chro-moly pins have proved themselves pretty well over the years. For instance our Road Race Camaro weighs in at 3800 lbs with driver. That car has 8 years of complete and total abuse and not so much as even basic maintenance done to it. It still has the original grease in the original bearings. We know though that the C10 is a different monster all together.

Something that struck us as odd is the OEM C10 spindle pin is smaller than the MII pin. So basically the I/D of the C10 bearing is smaller than the MII bearing. Although the C10 bearings are larger overall, both width and O/D. If GM felt the pin was suffeciently strong enough, who are we to argue? We will base our new spindle pin dimensions off the OEM pin. Ours will just be made out of Chro-Moly. This way replacement parts like rotors and bearings will also be OEM.

-J

Looks like I type-o'd on the weight of a pick-up. Should of been "close to 4k" not "close to 3k". But any way, you're definitely right on the trucks being a "different monster all together" with most of the weight on the front. I not so sure if the pin size on the spindle is as big of an issue as the bearing size, but using a superior material like the Chrome-moly you mentioned is a huge plus. In theory, by incorporating a smaller I.D., or smaller pin design, with the larger O.D. allowed by the truck rotor, GM could then use a bearing with either more rollers, or larger rollers, or possibly both, increasing the weight capacity of that application. The larger/higher roller count disperses the energy more efficiently. For those that may not be familiar with the L10 Life I mentioned in an earlier post, this is a mathematical equation that can predict a 90% failure mode under specific loads. This can literally narrow it down to expected hours of in-service operation, pretty accurate stuff. A few months back, the engineering team I work with had a Lunch-N-Learn seminar with Timken Bearings and the information they shared was tremendous.

Again, kudos to you TCI, for the great development going on!

[slow4dr]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

While this sounds logical.... Is it?

Wouldn't GM have likely based decisions of the 'pin' design & dimensions w/the vehicles anticipated use in mind which likely wasn't near what the current trends are (autocross specifically). Just wondering out loud here. Obviously you guys put alot of thought into what you design.

We are actually going to build the spindle and pin to be strong enough to handle anything a customer can throw at it. If a weakness presents itself during testing we will go a different route. The pin itself will be made form chromoly so strength won't be an issue. For selfish reasons I am pushing them to overengineer everything so I can be able to adapt a long travel set-up onto our crossmember.

Originally Posted by GEARBOXGARAGE

Looks like I type-o'd on the weight of a pick-up. Should of been "close to 4k" not "close to 3k". But any way, you're definitely right on the trucks being a "different monster all together" with most of the weight on the front. I not so sure if the pin size on the spindle is as big of an issue as the bearing size, but using a superior material like the Chrome-moly you mentioned is a huge plus. In theory, by incorporating a smaller I.D., or smaller pin design, with the larger O.D. allowed by the truck rotor, GM could then use a bearing with either more rollers, or larger rollers, or possibly both, increasing the weight capacity of that application. The larger/higher roller count disperses the energy more efficiently. For those that may not be familiar with the L10 Life I mentioned in an earlier post, this is a mathematical equation that can predict a 90% failure mode under specific loads. This can literally narrow it down to expected hours of in-service operation, pretty accurate stuff. A few months back, the engineering team I work with had a Lunch-N-Learn seminar with Timken Bearings and the information they shared was tremendous.

Again, kudos to you TCI, for the great development going on!

-J

[aggie91]

Originally Posted by slow4dr

...For selfish reasons I am pushing them to overengineer everything so I can be able to adapt a long travel set-up onto our crossmember.

-J

I like where this could go. I have a longterm desire to build an older body style 2wd pre-runner style truck with a long travel front suspension..

[slow4dr]

More mock up pieces and parts



The crossmember is now in its 3rd iteration of the original idea.







-J

[GEARBOXGARAGE]

Awesome job guys! keep it up. How much shock travel are you expecting for the front? Looks like you could get 5" with 12" springs.

[aggie91]

That's looking good!

[slow4dr]

Originally Posted by GEARBOXGARAGE

Awesome job guys! keep it up. How much shock travel are you expecting for the front? Looks like you could get 5" with 12" springs.

We're going to use the 5" travel Ridetech shocks. I am not 100% sure what the motion ratio is but wheel travel will end up around 6.5"-7".

-J

[CHRIS67GMC]

It is a good thing you are not using the modular spindle. They do not hold up to racing. The pin would actually deflect in the spindle. I went as far as welding them front and back on the pin to help this but it was not enough they still flex bad enough to cause brake knock back.

These trucks are really hard on parts in a autocross/road race environment.