Anyone ever had luck getting summit to honor a warrantee for a bad crate engine?

[Ironangel]

Originally Posted by Ozzy2013

I agree 100% give us exact compression numbers and vacuum reading also have them check the timing at idle and advanced and tell us exactly what it is . Do a leak down test after the compression test .Do all of this and report back .You have an awesome group of people trying to help but it wont do any good unless we have solid FACTS .You can theorize all day long .Not being a jerk but this is the ONLY way it can get fixed.Get all of this done recorded and post it until you do you are just wasting your time.

This is the winning response! Please do let us know whats up with that motor AirSpeed...

Originally Posted by AirSpeed

Mine hadn't been run, I went over ever inch of it, no soot in the exhaust, no intake had ever been bolted on, there wasn't a scratch on it. No oil, no balancer, the crank was spotless. Are you sure?

Correct!

Originally Posted by 67ChevyRedneck

That may be done on the high end "complete" engine packages... But not on the generic replacement long blocks. I have one sitting in my garage...there is no way its ever been fired. GM also has break in instructions for the motors.

Correct, neither has mine and didn't come with instructions!...

Originally Posted by Fitz

I'm glad you work for Chevrolet but sorry, the factory does not run all of them. See the attached photo of my engine still in the crate. Exhaust ports are clean, no oil or coolant in that motor and the admonition from the factory that it has not been broken in and needs a very careful break-in period before getting to heavy on the right foot.

Your my hero Fitz, Love that 502! Ever had a bored 396 eat your lunch?

Originally Posted by marvgarr68

What is the vacuum reading? This will tell you everything from late cam timing to bad ignition timing, open valves, burned valves, and so on. It needs to have a vacuum gauge hooked up.

Another very good post!

Originally Posted by tcrist

Yep, done something similar MANY times. It's worse when your wife comes out and says "could it be this?", and it is!!!.

Dont even f&#$in go there!

Originally Posted by Ironangel

Damn! That was a six beer thread! I sure hope you follow up and give us a heads up on the failure AirSpeed...I bought the 260hp version of the same "Mexico" built motor from GM Performance, via JEGS website on ebay for a whopping $1275.00 delivered. I purchased that motor back in April of 2014 and it's still on the stand out there in the shop waiting as a back-up motor for my 72 LWB daily driver/tow vehicle as I have two. One for driving, one for racing and cruise nights...I've done alot of research on these motors and for the most part, all good, key words being "most part"...With that said and after six beers of reading through your dilemma, here's some info that may help explain the phantom that eludes...It was brought to my attention (too long ago dont ask) that some of these crate motors did in fact get the "Friday Attentions" and wrong or faulty cams, lifters, push rods, bolts, etc, installed...After reading two thirds of this thread I was thinking "wiped out cam" and then my failing memory showed up to reinforce the possibility of an inferior component(s) installed...I sure hope you've done a follow up on the motor in question so the rest of us can get a heads up. If not, you owe me a six pack of Bud Platinum! Good on you and GM for replacing that pig...~ Michael of the clan Hill~

[AirSpeed]

I just got my truck back from the gm dealer, they're trying to tell me that my plug wires are to long and the truck won't ever time correctly, that this engine will never run right with a quadrajet, even though Summit and GM recomend it. They say it absolutely has to be a holly! Then they told me it could be the RTV I used on the front and rear of the intake, that it should never be used anywhere on an intake even though there's no leak. They say there is nothing wrong other than that. They then charged me $100. I have tried the exact quad GM and summit say will work with no luck, I know the plug wires are fine, they are a little long but there's no way it will take anymore time for electricity to travel the extra four inches of plug wire on three cylinders, there are no vacuum leaks. Anyone ever have trouble using a quad on one of these engines? Issues with silicone on the intake? Long plug wires preventing timing? Then they told me my carb leaks, that there is gas puddling all over my intake, I looked and the only wet spot was right next to the oil fill on the valve cover that I didn't get cleaned up when I spilled a cap full of oil. My intake is dry, you can tell no gas leaked anywhere, they just assumed the 1/2 teaspoon of oil was gasoline.
Anyway they couldn't figure anything out. When I brought up that summit recomends a quadrajet the guy just shrugged, When I mentioned people have been using RTV for the intake for decades he shrugged again. I was a little mad about all this but my toungue because I have a car I bought from them that may need service someday, now that I'm home I doubt I'll take even my car there again. I understand these engines are simple, that there's only so much that can go wrong but it sounded like they were just making excuses. The best part was when they offered to install a new carb and the "correct" plug wires for a mere $1245, how generous!

[green72s]

Wow, I'm really sorry that this is still going on and that you weren't given any good explanations for what's happening. Hang in there, you'll figure it out. There has been a lot of good information provided on this thread, perhaps using the information to create a solid step by step plan would be helpful.

[67ChevyRedneck]

I knew it sounded too easy.... They may be right though... It may be the trans or something you've missed. I think on certain intakes you need to block off the center egr port, not sure what issues it would cause though. Something to look into?

[Sillyoldman]

Bite the bullet and funnel the money in the right direction. It sounds like there's problems beyond what you bought from Summitt.

[Steve Cole]

Is there any way there could be a plug or cap left on from assembly or shipping? Something that would block airflow or fuel flow? You did say the engine runs strong so that would point me back to the tranny or torque converter.

[AirSpeed]

Thanks guys but I promise, every suggestion has been tried, several times. I'm getting my old engine rebuilt, I will probably pull this one and give it to my daughter, I gave her my 69 which has the original engine and it's tired. But still stronger than my new engine after forty two years! Her boyfriend is talking about tearing the one in my truck apart and upgrade it then put it in the 69. It was funny at the dealer, one of the guys was talking about getting the engine I have, I asked him if my warrantee was transferable and he said yes, so I offered to sell him my engine half price, he gave me a very fast and loud NO THANK YOU!, this was right after he told me there's nothing wrong with it.

[leftybass209]

The dealer couldn't figure it out because there's no diagnostic port. Plug wires are too long? Wrong sealant on the intake? Did he get his sae cert from a cracker jack box? An engine this basic is not hard to diagnose for those in the field. I honestly think you've had an unfortunate run of lazy mechanics who do book work troubleshooting.

[cdrummer316]

Techs at dealerships nowadays can't diagnois anything without a laptop. Being that your engine is old school they have to guess at what it is. Unless your spark plug wires are 12ft long I doubt that is your problem. But from what I read you saying that it idles fine and revs fine but has no power in gear tells me its a timing issue. I know you checked everything but I can almost guarantee it's a timing issue. I'm a forklift technician and I had an old Yale lift that was doing the same thing your engine is. Even tho this was a 4 cylinder and yours is a v8 the same rules apply. I assumed the timing was fine because it idled and revved and started with no issues. But once in gear it didn't have enough power to move out its own way. Did all the parts swapping just like you, carb, dis, wires, plugs, adjust timing and nothing worked. I knew the cylinder head was off before I worked on it due to a bad head gasket so I checked the timing and found that even though the timing marks lined up the position of the camshaft wasn't right. Moved the cam 180 and put back together. Ran it and it was like I put a new engine. From my experience I don't assume anything. Guess what, someone put your engine together. Don't trust that what they did was right.

[70']

Originally Posted by AirSpeed

I just got my truck back from the gm dealer, they're trying to tell me that my plug wires are to long and the truck won't ever time correctly, that this engine will never run right with a quadrajet, even though Summit and GM recomend it. They say it absolutely has to be a holly! Then they told me it could be the RTV I used on the front and rear of the intake, that it should never be used anywhere on an intake even though there's no leak. They say there is nothing wrong other than that. They then charged me $100. I have tried the exact quad GM and summit say will work with no luck, I know the plug wires are fine, they are a little long but there's no way it will take anymore time for electricity to travel the extra four inches of plug wire on three cylinders, there are no vacuum leaks. Anyone ever have trouble using a quad on one of these engines? Issues with silicone on the intake? Long plug wires preventing timing? Then they told me my carb leaks, that there is gas puddling all over my intake, I looked and the only wet spot was right next to the oil fill on the valve cover that I didn't get cleaned up when I spilled a cap full of oil. My intake is dry, you can tell no gas leaked anywhere, they just assumed the 1/2 teaspoon of oil was gasoline.
Anyway they couldn't figure anything out. When I brought up that summit recomends a quadrajet the guy just shrugged, When I mentioned people have been using RTV for the intake for decades he shrugged again. I was a little mad about all this but my toungue because I have a car I bought from them that may need service someday, now that I'm home I doubt I'll take even my car there again. I understand these engines are simple, that there's only so much that can go wrong but it sounded like they were just making excuses. The best part was when they offered to install a new carb and the "correct" plug wires for a mere $1245, how generous!

If you know that's not the issue then let them do it, they won't be able to charge you if it doesn't fix the problem right? Then they will have to acknowledge that it's something else and keep loooking

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by leftybass209

the dealer couldn't figure it out because there's no diagnostic port. Plug wires are too long? Wrong sealant on the intake? Did he get his sae cert from a cracker jack box? An engine this basic is not hard to diagnose for those in the field. I honestly think you've had an unfortunate run of lazy mechanics who do book work troubleshooting.

x2!

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by cdrummer316

Techs at dealerships nowadays can't diagnois anything without a laptop. Being that your engine is old school they have to guess at what it is. Unless your spark plug wires are 12ft long I doubt that is your problem. But from what I read you saying that it idles fine and revs fine but has no power in gear tells me its a timing issue. I know you checked everything but I can almost guarantee it's a timing issue. I'm a forklift technician and I had an old Yale lift that was doing the same thing your engine is. Even tho this was a 4 cylinder and yours is a v8 the same rules apply. I assumed the timing was fine because it idled and revved and started with no issues. But once in gear it didn't have enough power to move out its own way. Did all the parts swapping just like you, carb, dis, wires, plugs, adjust timing and nothing worked. I knew the cylinder head was off before I worked on it due to a bad head gasket so I checked the timing and found that even though the timing marks lined up the position of the camshaft wasn't right. Moved the cam 180 and put back together. Ran it and it was like I put a new engine. From my experience I don't assume anything. Guess what, someone put your engine together. Don't trust that what they did was right.

X2! I also think it's timing, rotor phasing to be exact.

[Average Joe]

Originally Posted by AirSpeed

I just got my truck back from the gm dealer, they're trying to tell me that my plug wires are to long and the truck won't ever time correctly, that this engine will never run right with a quadrajet, even though Summit and GM recomend it. They say it absolutely has to be a holly! Then they told me it could be the RTV I used on the front and rear of the intake, that it should never be used anywhere on an intake even though there's no leak. They say there is nothing wrong other than that. They then charged me $100. I have tried the exact quad GM and summit say will work with no luck, I know the plug wires are fine, they are a little long but there's no way it will take anymore time for electricity to travel the extra four inches of plug wire on three cylinders, there are no vacuum leaks. Anyone ever have trouble using a quad on one of these engines? Issues with silicone on the intake? Long plug wires preventing timing? Then they told me my carb leaks, that there is gas puddling all over my intake, I looked and the only wet spot was right next to the oil fill on the valve cover that I didn't get cleaned up when I spilled a cap full of oil. My intake is dry, you can tell no gas leaked anywhere, they just assumed the 1/2 teaspoon of oil was gasoline.
Anyway they couldn't figure anything out. When I brought up that summit recomends a quadrajet the guy just shrugged, When I mentioned people have been using RTV for the intake for decades he shrugged again. I was a little mad about all this but my toungue because I have a car I bought from them that may need service someday, now that I'm home I doubt I'll take even my car there again. I understand these engines are simple, that there's only so much that can go wrong but it sounded like they were just making excuses. The best part was when they offered to install a new carb and the "correct" plug wires for a mere $1245, how generous!

I would run from this dealer! I thought Summit or GM was taking care of you on this? How about a different GM dealer? Has the cam been degreed or verified it was ground correct? This just plain SUCKS! I sure hope somebody steps up and does the right thing for you. Thanks for posting about your experience though.

[1972RedNeck]

Originally Posted by AirSpeed

Thanks guys but I promise, every suggestion has been tried, several times.

You never gave us any vacuum readings.

[Ozzy2013]

We never got any readings i cant say it enough give us the FACTS .

[hamjet]

I'm still sticking with my earlier post, (#51) and think the cam is out of sinc with the crank. it's going to have to be checked with a degree wheel...

[D.PASSMORE]

I'll throw this out here. Try this method, break the troubleshooting down to 3 areas: Motor, Transmission and Gearing. Ensure each one is functioning correctly and that it meets need for your application. ie: modified 4x4.
On the same note about your crate motor, your situation was similar to mine. I purchased a GM crate motor 295 HP for my 72 K20. I had a strong mildly built 350 in it that blew a head gasket, plus it had a lot of miles on it. My son needed a vehicle to drive to school (16yrs old at the time). I bought that motor, as it would be dependable, low HP driver for him. Plus I would rebuild my other motor.
So, as you experienced, what a SLUG! When I got the motor, I checked it out, two really lose rocker arms, fixed that. I went basic, EPS edelbrock carb and intake and NAPA wires and rebuilt point distributor. It ran great, I had to play with the jetting of the carb to get to run at max power. Even with the motor tuned (new dual exhaust), stout TB 350 and 4:10 gearing it was like driving my grandmothers 1976 Ford Granada with a four banger! Well, unfortunately he wrecked the old girl and we parked it. It has been setting for the last few years, only about 5k on the motor. Over the holidays, we pulled that motor and checked it out - good shape. Now, were going to use the bottom end and pump it up on the top end. I purchased some AFR heads, have a nice eldelbrock performer intake, recondition/rebuilt Quadra-jet and Taylor wires and a DUI small GM distributor. I still have to spec the CAM. So look for a motor build thread over in the drive train section. Good Luck!

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by D.PASSMORE

On the same note about your crate motor, your situation was similar to mine. I purchased a GM crate motor 295 HP for my 72 K20. I had a strong mildly built 350 in it that blew a head gasket, plus it had a lot of miles on it. My son needed a vehicle to drive to school (16yrs old at the time). I bought that motor, as it would be dependable, low HP driver for him. Plus I would rebuild my other motor.
Now, were going to use the bottom end and pump it up on the top end. I purchased some AFR heads, have a nice eldelbrock performer intake, recondition/rebuilt Quadra-jet and Taylor wires and a DUI small GM distributor. I still have to spec the CAM. So look for a motor build thread over in the drive train section. Good Luck!

NOW you're talking! Looking forward to seeing how this engine turns out, putting good heads on this will be very productive!

The cam on this engine is too much for the low compression heads. I'd suggest 64cc AFR 180s and use the thin felpro 1094 head gasket and get the quench right.

If you have the same 290HP engine, here are your cam specs. I would suggest checking tappet lift and multiply X 1.5 to be sure it has the same lift.

"The 350/290 HP engine uses an aggressive flat tappet camshaft to achieve the level of performance for its intended usage. Camshaft lift is .450" intake / .460" exhaust. Camshaft duration (@.050") is 222 degrees intake and exhaust. Lobe centerline is 114 degrees. Normal engine manifold vacuum for the 350/290 HP engine is 10-12" Hg at idle (650-750 rpm)".

You could choose a split duration cam with 112 lobe centerline and enjoy more vacuum. I like the Lunati voodoo cam for this app, let me know if you want recommendations for the cam and don't go overboard on the size of the head intake runners.

To achieve the performance potential of the AFR heads you will need headers. For the 4X4 I would suggest tri-y design with cross-over dual pipes.

Here are all the specs on that engine.
http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam...e-12499529.pdf

[D.PASSMORE]

mechanicalman, thanks for the info. I will need some guidance on the build. I do have AFR 64 cc w/ 195 intake runners and I'm running straight dump 2.5 OE corvette manifolds.

Air speed, don't give up on it. Ill let you know when I start the top end rehab and thread. The last time I had a stock bottom end rebuilt/reassembled at a good machine shop, it ran about $1500. So, with your crate motor, you have a good bottom end if you want to "pump it up"!

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by D.PASSMORE

mechanicalman, thanks for the info. I will need some guidance on the build. I do have AFR 64 cc w/ 195 intake runners and I'm running straight dump 2.5 OE corvette manifolds.

Air speed, don't give up on it. Ill let you know when I start the top end rehab and thread. The last time I had a stock bottom end rebuilt/reassembled at a good machine shop, it ran about $1500. So, with your crate motor, you have a good bottom end if you want to "pump it up"!

I used to run ram's horn manifolds on my truck, 2.25" angle-dumps. Then did fairly well in dual exhaust with crossover pipe configuration. I was able to improve on them.

I noticed when they are bolted on, they tend to sag a little and tended to mis-align with the head. Using some wet paint on the head I bolted the manifolds on and let gravity do what it does then tightened the bolts, and removed the manifolds. I noticed that the top of the manifold hung down into the port enough to disrupt exhaust gas flow so I got out the grinder and ground out the parts where the paint did not transfer on the top side of the port and blended it in. I don't think it would be productive to grind the bottom of the head port to match the ex manifold, I only modified the top side or the manifold ports.

Then many years later I installed Hooker long tube headers and was amazed at how much better they flowed than the ram's horns through the exact same ex pipes. I will concede that ram's horns are the best OEM ex manifolds out there, and I have no experience with the 2.5" center dumps I expect they would be better than the 2.25" angle dumps.

195cc AFRs are more for 383 than for 350, especially on a 4WD, unless you are geared low and are willing to turn more RPMs.

I hope you were able to salvage/repair the wrecked vehicle

[Scott Liggett]

Originally Posted by AirSpeed

I just got my truck back from the gm dealer, they're trying to tell me that my plug wires are to long and the truck won't ever time correctly, that this engine will never run right with a quadrajet, even though Summit and GM recomend it. They say it absolutely has to be a holly! Then they told me it could be the RTV I used on the front and rear of the intake, that it should never be used anywhere on an intake even though there's no leak. They say there is nothing wrong other than that. They then charged me $100. I have tried the exact quad GM and summit say will work with no luck, I know the plug wires are fine, they are a little long but there's no way it will take anymore time for electricity to travel the extra four inches of plug wire on three cylinders, there are no vacuum leaks. Anyone ever have trouble using a quad on one of these engines? Issues with silicone on the intake? Long plug wires preventing timing? Then they told me my carb leaks, that there is gas puddling all over my intake, I looked and the only wet spot was right next to the oil fill on the valve cover that I didn't get cleaned up when I spilled a cap full of oil. My intake is dry, you can tell no gas leaked anywhere, they just assumed the 1/2 teaspoon of oil was gasoline.
Anyway they couldn't figure anything out. When I brought up that summit recomends a quadrajet the guy just shrugged, When I mentioned people have been using RTV for the intake for decades he shrugged again. I was a little mad about all this but my toungue because I have a car I bought from them that may need service someday, now that I'm home I doubt I'll take even my car there again. I understand these engines are simple, that there's only so much that can go wrong but it sounded like they were just making excuses. The best part was when they offered to install a new carb and the "correct" plug wires for a mere $1245, how generous!

Reading this, I will not comment on the other stuff the dealer concluded. But, Quadrajets are notorious for leaking out of the bottom where there are well plugs to the bottom of the fuel bowl. The gasoline will puddle inside the intake, under the carburetor. It is a simple fix by removing the carb, flipping it over and taking a two part epoxy, like JB Weld to seal up those plugs. They will be soaked with gasoline if they are leaking. Also, they stick down from main body in a hole in the base plate. You do not have to disassemble the carb to fix it.

An overly rich condition will kill horsepower. Once fixed, replaced your spark plugs as they are now probably black from running rich. Then set your timing to the engine manufacturer's recommendations. I am sure you feel more power in the ole seat of the pants dyno.

[aris_unlimited]

This just has me convinced that when I buy my crate engine, I buy it at a GM dealership and have them install it (which I was planning on doing myself since it is a big block conversion and I wanted to troubleshoot the install myself). Just so I get that extra bit of warranty.

[Fitz]

Originally Posted by Ironangel

Your my hero Fitz, Love that 502! Ever had a bored 396 eat your lunch?

No, have you?

[tcrist]

Originally Posted by aris_unlimited

This just has me convinced that when I buy my crate engine, I buy it at a GM dealership and have them install it (which I was planning on doing myself since it is a big block conversion and I wanted to troubleshoot the install myself). Just so I get that extra bit of warranty.

Let us know what they quote you for the install.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by aris_unlimited

This just has me convinced that when I buy my crate engine, I buy it at a GM dealership and have them install it (which I was planning on doing myself since it is a big block conversion and I wanted to troubleshoot the install myself). Just so I get that extra bit of warranty.

I hope you get a more competent dealer than what was discussed here.

If anything this would make me NOT buy a GM crate engine and NOT want to have anything to do with a GM dealer service dept.

The crate engine: Poorly engineered combination of parts in this instance. GM should sell this engine as a short block only or put higher compression heads on it.

The dealership service: Incompetent as described in the conversation.

This being said, it's different for me as I do not trust others to build my engines.