Better kickpods in 60-66 Trucks

[par4tom]

If you are looking to build custom kickpods in your 60-66 truck, what follows is A way to do so while saving yourself a lot of time and money. Notice I did not say that this was THE way...just a way to get competition sound out of your 60-66 trucks. And...I hope the moderator will leave this up for a bit on the main forum before moving it somewhere else...

First, credit where credit is do. I learned to do kick panels from the Godfather of custom Fabrication, Steve Brown. Back in my sound competition circuit days in the late 90's (I was undefeated in my power class)...Steve's designs were light years ahead of the rest of us. He won the national competition and truthfully...I hated parking next to his car as it made me feel like an idiot.

He later went on to work for Alpine...building some of the amazing cars that Alpine would use at CES and Sema. However, he did take me aside at one of the shows and showed me exactly how to build kickpanels with fiberglass. This was revolutionary stuff back in the day...old school now!!!

Second...I always struggled with which way and what method was the best way to illicit amazing sound without numerous trial and error in speaker alignments. Much thought has developed from the early days when speakers were meant to be placed as close together as possible and aimed at the center of the vehicle.

However, in the last 7 to 8 years, science has blown up those earlier theories and Glass Wolf (I don't know who he is but here is a link to his webpage) has perhaps the best information on how to get better sound without guessing. He won 2 national sound competitions in a standard cab truck. So those of us with these older trucks...great sounds are possible.

http://www.glasswolf.net/papers/imaging.html

Here is my build thread with Steve Brown's influence and Glass Wolfs amazing secret to getting perfect imaging and sound quality without guessing...Pic of my drivers side pod

[par4tom]

Before getting started, you should know that I have the Vintage Air system and do not need my fresh air vents. If you need to retain your vents, then you will have to modify some of these steps...

First step is to thoroughly tape off the entire area you will be working on. I use 2" blue tape. Tape the kick panel from the bottom up, so that the next layer of tape will overlap the previous layer. This prevents resin from dripping down onto the sheet metal...

I also use two strips of about 4 to 5 layers of tape to pull everything up once I am done glassing everything. You can see the strips sticking out to the left...

[par4tom]

The first step here is to decide whether you want to use a wood backplate for the pod or make one out of fleececloth. (Notice - I did not say chop mat!) Chop mat is way old school and a mess to work with...fibers get in your clothing and skin and itch...

In my build, because the panel is virtually flat, I decided to use 3/8" fiberboard as my backplate. Here you can see me using a piece of cardboard to sketch up my backplate template. Once you get this to a shape you want, then transfer it to the 3/8" MDF and cut with a jigsaw. Here you can see the backplate as I am mocking everything up...

[par4tom]

As I was building this first pod, I thought the 3/8" MDF was a bit thin, so I made a surround piece with 3/4" MDF, used a flush-trim bit and the backplate outline as a template. Here you can see the surround piece. I glued and crown nailed to the 3/8" piece. I also rounded over the outside edge for a better look.

Note:
There are many different ways to do this. I suppose you could use 3/4" MDF for the backplate (Or plywood - use whatever you have). I don't feel one way is better then another.

[par4tom]

Here is where Old School starts to meet new technology. If you notice, I am using a 6 1/2" midbass driver and a 2" mid-range/tweeter combination down in the kick pods. I also have a 1" dome tweeter up in the A pillar, crossed over at an extremely high 8khz. This is done as a result of glass-wolfs input in the link on the first post, and also with the design help of Ken Pearson, the owner and chief designer of CDT Audio in Buellton CA.

NOTE ON DRIVERS IN KICKPODS

Both Glasswolf and Mr Pearson were saying the same thing regarding drivers in kickpods. You will not get stellar sound out of a driver larger than 4" or 5 1/4" in a sealed kickpod. So...if you are not going to use the open cowl vent as your backspace to a 6 1/2" driver, you either need to mount a 6 1/2" driver in the door or you need to go with a smaller driver. The reason being is that your hardest hitting mid-bass frequencies are around 80 to 120 hz (Like the tom-tom drum)...a 6 1/2" driver will not reproduce those sounds in a small, sealed enclosure. This is why in my previous system where I was using a 6 1/2" driver in my Acura...the midbass was always week. Study Glass wolfs other pages as he is way more qualified than I on this topic...here is the 2" mid-range tweeter CDT Audio speaker I am using.

[par4tom]

After cutting out my speaker rings for the 6 1/2" driver, I used a 1" wide of black upholstery board and an upholstery stapler to nail it to the surround of my midbass driver...there are other ways to do this but I just prefer this method as it saves me time from using a router for a surround ring...

For the 2" driver, Mr. Pearson was emphatic that the tweeter should NEVER share the enclosure space with a mid/bass driver. He suggested using a 2" PVC cap and gluing it to the back of my speaker's faceplate. You can see the PVC below...ignore the golfshaft sticking out of the speaker opening for a moment...

[par4tom]

Previously, I have referred you to Glasswolfs Website and here I think you will find the answer to the best sound possible. I followed his advice to the T and the results I have heard out of my system on the first start-up were better then any system I have built previous. Imaging was stable, centered over the dash and midbass was phenomenal due to using the cowl vents as the enclosure.

To start with (I apologize for plagiarizing Glasswolfs work)...the best way to achieve maximum performance out of kickpods, is to sit in the drivers seat with the window rolled up. Have a friend stand outside the truck, and stick a small piece of tape directly across from the opening of your ear. Once this is done, measure 5" forward towards the front of the truck and then 1 1/2" inches down.

Stick a piece of blue tape on this precise location because all of our construction is going to orient to this point. Here you can see the piece of blue tape on my drivers side window at the aim point...

And...if you don't care to be this precise, then you can align your speakers anywhere you want. Old school practice was to aim the speakers at the head of the occupant on the other side of the car. Passenger side was aimed at the drivers head and then vice versa...

[par4tom]

With my blue tape on the window, I took a piece of MDF and used a drill press to drill a hole perpendicular to the faceplate. I then took some old golf shafts I had (you can use a wood down, piece of iron, whatever you want...just make sure it is straight). I liked the golf shaft as it was lightweight and long enough to aim at the piece of blue tape.

Having never done speaker alignment like this before, I have to admit I stumbled a bit. You will need a partner. To mount the speaker face plate and aim the shaft at the blue tape, took me a bit of practice. Once I got the shaft aimed properly, I cut some small pieces of MDF to use as legs to the faceplate and then hot glued (Or C.A. glue is better and faster) the legs in place.

Here you can see my alignment with the mid/tweet. I forgot to take a picture of the midbass driver alignment. However, it is the same thing.

The second picture is of the drivers side. I had gotten the hang of this by the time I got to this side of the truck. You can see both golf shafts aimed precisely at the blue piece of tape. Once this was done, I glued a few more legs of support and double checked my work.

One word with regards to how far up into the kickpanel I placed my speakers and where they need to go. First, the tweeter/mid needs to go closer to the occupants than the midbass driver. For the midbass driver, I had wanted to actually mount this into the existing cowl vent opening, but in doing so, this would have blocked most of the driver from my aim point on the opposite side window. I settled on having about 80 percent of the speaker visible to the blue tape on the opposite side. The mid-tweet MUST BE 100% visible due to the frequencies they produce...

I would say this entire process took me a couple of hours...but it later paid huge dividends in quality of sound.

[Low Elco]

Hmm.... Beddy interesting. I've seen some of this on CAF, but I like the imaging stuff please continue!

[par4tom]

I now turned my attention to sealing off the back of the kickpod from the outside elements. To do this, I took a piece of 100% polyester fleece (You can get it at any fabric store - be sure to get the type that stretches a bit and does NOT have the backing) and stretched it across my speaker apparatus and stapled it to my back plate.

I would advise never using shop mat again. It is way to hard to work with and won't produce the results you want. Here you can see the speaker pods after I had glassed them with polyester resin. I use Home Depot resin along with a handful of 2" chip brushed to apply.

A word on applying resin to fleece - You will notice that I used a blue fleece to cover the speakers for resin. This is because the fleece will turn completely black when you have saturated the cloth all the way through to the back. Make sure that you get 100% penetration of the resin into the fleece cloth or your build will not be as rigid.

Some guys prefer to use a heavier fleece. Some guys like to use speaker grill cloth. I don't like either because the grill cloth is not strong enough and the superheavy fleece is a waste of resin. Resin is expensive...

Here you can see the fleece cloth after a couple of coats of resin. I coated the inside as well...

[par4tom]

With the first fleece cloth cured, I then took the same exact fleece cloth and stretched it over the entire panel...I staple the cloth down inside the speaker opening in order to retain the recessed look. If you plan on flushmounting your speakers on top...that is definitely easier.

The two arrows I drew, shows a huge gap between the back of the kickpod and the edge of the truck. More then anything, I hate gaps and I'll show you how I fixed this later on.

Here is a picture of the panel, right before final resin application...

[par4tom]

After resin photo...make sure you go slow on the first coat as you want to make sure that the fleece cloth turns completely black. I then do two or three heavy coats of resin after to add strength and save myself some time sanding...I hate sanding!!!

[par4tom]

With the resin fully cured, I take some of the green 36 grit paper and start blocking it out by hand. Some guys like to take body filler and layer it on there. I prefer the other way as it gives my hands a chance to "feel" what is happening with the panel and feel major areas of imperfections. With the panel almost completely knocked down, I start the process of applying body filler.

Here is a tip I got from Steve Brown of Alpine - Use Rage Gold filler!!! Number one, it doesn't shrink. Number 2 - it cuts very easily when still green. Number 3 - Cheap filler hardens up too quick and takes hours of extra sanding. Since my time is money, I spend the extra bit of coin on Rage Gold (Not Rage Ultra) as in the end...it is SOOO much cheaper than doing the extra work. I'm 53 years old...too old to sand a lot!

Also...here is where I would like guys to note how much less filler I am using and how much better my shape is then using chop mat. If you are still using chop mat...stop!!! Fleece is so much better and easier to work with...

[New_70'C10]

It's been a while since I've seen someone resin their own kickpods and you are doing an excellent job. All of the technical information is great as well.

Thanks for sharing it with us and I think it has inspired me to go this route with mine when it comes time.

Thanks again,
Charles.

[par4tom]

The final step before covering in carpet, or vinyl or painting, is to make sure your gaps are perfect...

To do this, I masked off the area between the rubber weather stripping and the panel, and then mounted my panel to the kick panel. From there, I took a bit of Rage Gold and Duraglass mixed 50% - 50%, and then squeezed the material into the gap between panel and the wall. Don't worry about making allowances for vinyl when you wrap the panel as the vinyl will compress enough to make everything look perfect.

As you can see, the side wall of the truck is not very flat (and why should it be there is not a straight panel on these trucks to begin with!!) but the back filling works wonders in getting things to fit together...

The area shows the final product before vinyl and the actual gap is about 1/32" of an inch.

[par4tom]

Here is the driver's side kickpanel ready for vinyl. I will use vinyl top adhesive and brush it on versus using a pot sprayer. Bushing it on will eliminate the bumps. Do not use a spray can adhesive as it will not hold...

For vinyl, I highly encourage the use of Katzkin vinyl. I have used this for years and on one of my CES cars back in 2002, I used Katzkin and almost 15 years later the vinyl still looks great.

When I am stretching vinyl, I use a space heater and a heat gun to keep the vinyl very, very warm. Starting from the deepest part of the panel...in this case, below the mid-bass driver, I slowing work the vinyl across until there are no stretch marks. You will notice, that there are no relief cuts either and this from a guy who is a novice at stretching vinyl. You can find Katzkin on-line and get it in about 30 colors...

[par4tom]

With the vinyl now stretched, I run my wires and mount up the speakers. There was one item that I forgot...and when I washed the truck for the first time, I flooded the entire floorboard with water.

To remedy, I built some baffles out of mdf and fiberglass that fit into the opening of the cowl vent and then used silicone to seal the baffle to the sheet metal of the kick panel. Note...I left the baffle open and pointed down and covered everything in several coats of resin so that in 20 years, it will be as good as it is today...

[par4tom]

More pictures of baffles...

[par4tom]

And final product...

All in all, I'd say I have about 25 to 30 hours in these pods because I haven't built something for this type of vehicle before or in this manner. If I was doing it again...probably take about 20 hours...plus I get the added benefit of stinking up my shop and my clothes with the smell of resin for the ensuring 4 or 5 days. Can't beat that!!!

Most any high-quality stereo shop can build these...however I have found that "younger" guys take a lot of short cuts...so make sure you tell them what you want and insist on quality.

Carpeted pods are easy to make and should run you about $800 bucks for something really nice. Very forgiving.

Vinyl covered are quite a bit more work due to extra sanding, cost of vinyl and extra work and would run you about $1300 to $1500. If you want to paint them, probably in the $1800 range for a shop to make these for you and paint them as there are several hours more work to primer, sand and paint and clear.

I prefer the Katzkin Vinyl as it has great marbling and texture and doesn't lose that texture when you have to make a harder stretch.

OR...you can do it yourself and spend about $80 to $150 in materials and have the satisfaction of doing your own work!!! Now you know how...

[par4tom]

Final thoughts...there is no reason that anyone with some basic tools can't make a great sounding, attractive set of kick pods that fit perfectly. Study GlassWolfs pages in that first link. Wish I had had this information 20 years ago.

In this last picture it is a bit hard to see, but I routered out a couple of Lexan black trim rings to cover the screws on the mid bass driver and give it a finished look. I do have a couple of grills that fit over these speakers...but I kinda like the "old-school" look better.

The top right part of the panel that has the small open area has another piece of Lexan inserted into the opening...hope to engrave the CDT Logo into the Lexan and add it here...
Tom

[DaddyOh]

In your experience, is it better to put your mid driver and tweeter in the same location? Is there any benefit on moving the tweeter up to the stock dash placement grill area for your highs? Would that give a better 'center channel' feel. Great write up.

[par4tom]

Originally Posted by DaddyOh

In your experience, is it better to put your mid driver and tweeter in the same location? Is there any benefit on moving the tweeter up to the stock dash placement grill area for your highs? Would that give a better 'center channel' feel. Great write up.

10 years ago the answer to this question would have been a definative yes. However, to understand the answer you need to understand how acoustics work at different frequencies. Mid-bass and mid-range frequencies up to about 1500 hz do not give your brain many directional cues because of location. Their directional cues are a result of different arrival times of the wavelengths from left and right side. Because our trucks are so small, time alignment is really a bandaid.

Suffice it to say, if you align your midbass and midrange drivers like I have advised, your directional cues for these speakers will not be a result of placement in the kickpod...only a result of different arrival times between left and right channels and you can't change that.

Tweeters and higher frequencies is a completely different matter. Frequencies above 1500 hz now start giving cues as to where the sound is coming from due to their placement. This is why a large number of competitors winning national competitions have won with midbass and mid range down in kickpods and tweeters up on top of the dash. There is no reason to absolutely leave the speakers together anymore as was the thought 10 years ago.

What I liked about the CDT System, is that they get all of this technical stuff, and the tweeters that I am using are at the very top of the A pillar and firing down at a special center channel where I have two more 2" mid-tweeter speakers on a special volume control circuit. Click on the bottom link in my signature and you can see what CDT has done with the Center Channel design.

The tweeters are crossed over at 8 khz by design, and their placement at the top of the A pillar is an interesting phenomena. On our first listen last week (with almost zero tuning and time alignment work done). We heard the image at the height of our heads...stable and centered over the top of the hood. But when you listen to the signal coming directly out of the tweeters...there is really not a lot of audible material about 8 khz. Completely defies my sense of thinking about the issues of soundstage...but then again...that's why I'm not a sound engineer.

In sound competitions, this soundstage issue is critical because you are judged as if the judge was sitting in a live concert and the musicians were ahead of you and on stage. Musicians on the left side of the stage should sound like they are on the left side of the stage. Musicians on the right...the right side. Drummer in the back and to the left...should sound like he is in the back and to the left.

So...to keep it simple, there is no reason to keep these speakers physically grouped together anymore. Midbass can be in door or kickpod, midrange as far forward and in the kickpod as you can get them (to equalize pathlengths between left and right channels, and tweeters can be up high in the A pillars and as far apart as possible.

The key issue is to address as many of the physical issues in your system as possible with physical solutions (I.E. - Driver alignment, spacing, subwoofer box design, etc). Then get to tuning. Too many people do a lousy job on the physical design (I.E - Like my old system where I had 6 1/2" drivers in sealed kickpods - sounded weak at best) or just take speakers off the shelf because of the brand and then spend the rest of their time tuning and trying to overcome the physical shortcomings of their choices!!! An example of this is the car audio industry trying to tell you you can get great, phenomenal bass out of a 12" woofer in a .25 cubic foot box. Ain't never going to happen because of the laws of physics. That is why I put 8" drivers in a .35 cubic box...done properly they sound like 2 12" inch subs.

From there...its all about tuning.

[DaddyOh]

Thanks for the detailed response... you just confirmed I am old and have not kept with the times, lol..... thanks again

[par4tom]

Originally Posted by DaddyOh

In your experience, is it better to put your mid driver and tweeter in the same location? Is there any benefit on moving the tweeter up to the stock dash placement grill area for your highs? Would that give a better 'center channel' feel. Great write up.

Sorry...let me simplify...yes, you can put mids down low and tweets in A pillars. Not best to put tweets on center channel opening...

For what it's worth, I felt like you did 3 years ago when I started...behind the times...
Tom

[duallyjams]

great info thanks