Oil and filters? It is the question of the day

[lilpoindexter]

1978 C10, OG 250 integrated head. 4 or 5 k miles a year. i use Mobil 1 filters and walmart oil.

[cadillac_al]

In oil wear tests the amount of ZDDP doesn't seem to matter. Oils high in ZDDP allow more wear than other oils with less ZDDP. It's mostly a placebo effect now. Most of the flat cams people get are most likely from inferior quality steel or stiff valve springs. Of course the cam companies will want to blame the oil. Here is a good read on oil and wear testing.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/

[old Rusty C10]

I only run delco filters in my chevys and as to oil I use the quaker state or Castrol if its diesel I use rotella

[68post]

Originally Posted by cadillac_al

In oil wear tests the amount of ZDDP doesn't seem to matter. Oils high in ZDDP allow more wear than other oils with less ZDDP. It's mostly a placebo effect now. Most of the flat cams people get are most likely from inferior quality steel or stiff valve springs. Of course the cam companies will want to blame the oil. Here is a good read on oil and wear testing.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/

This list has been discredited by experts. The first and foremost problem is that the test doesn't approach the pressure seen at the cam lobe and lifter interface of flat tappet cams of any performance value.

It may be a useful list for production engines built with roller lifters and cams , and OEM lazy flat tappet cams that may have been broken-in years ago with better oils. Buyer Beware !

[truckin 79]

I use walmart oil on all my vehicles, 79 Trans Am, 79 Chevy Truck, 83 Chevy Van, 2000 Jimmy and 2000 Sonoma. The filter is usually a fram or Delco whatever is on sale. I will admit I use a zddp additive in the Trans Am and have had no problems with any of the cars. I did have some milkshake oil in Sonoma after intake gasket failed but that was common with crappy dexcool antifreeze. I still used walmart oil after that and truck is running strong (knock on wood) with 193,000.

[GRADYS Performance]

Originally Posted by cadillac_al

In oil wear tests the amount of ZDDP doesn't seem to matter. Oils high in ZDDP allow more wear than other oils with less ZDDP. It's mostly a placebo effect now. Most of the flat cams people get are most likely from inferior quality steel or stiff valve springs. Of course the cam companies will want to blame the oil. Here is a good read on oil and wear testing.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/

Oil has changed as the new automobile engines have changed. Roller lifters and emission controls have made certain additives in oil go away. The different API ratings are because of this. The Camshaft and Lifter wear problems on hydraulic and solid lifter flat tappet cams IS caused by the use of newer API rated oils without the proper additives in them. This is even more pronounced with the use of higher lift & higher spring pressure performance cams. It has NOTHING to do with the quality of the cams it is only because of the difference in the oil used. The cams have not changed the oil has.

[Jeepwm69]

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

Oil can break down over time even when not used, and also turn acidic and cause damage in that way too.

Do what?

Oil doesn't break down sitting in a bottle, and it doesn't break down sitting in an engine.

You can get condensation in an engine from heat/cold cycles, even with ambient temperatures on an un-run vehicle, and while that condensation gets burned off in cars that are driven regularly, it does not get burned off in engines that are not driven. Oil doesn't just "break down" in an un-run engine. It might get contaminated by moisture.

After seeing a write up on oil filters several years ago where the filters were dissected and evaluated on the filtering material use and the build quality on the rest of the filter, I quit using Fram (the orange can of death).

I use Bosch, Denso, or AC Delco filters, depending on the application. WIX are excellent filters. I usually get on RockAuto and order filters about 10 at a time, and buy whichever "good" brand is in stock and priced reasonably.

I have almost exclusively used Castrol GTX in my engines for 25 years. I had a 93 Accord that I sold with 360K on it that didn't burn a drop of oil and still got 30MPH with no engine work on it, and all I ever put in that engine was GTX.

I have started using 5W40 Rotella T6 quite a bit after seeing the specs on it. I bought it to use in my Tractor and my ATV's (it's JASO MA rated) and the ATV's run cooler and shift better with it, and it's cheap, and extremely versatile so I keep a lot of that on hand to use in pretty much everything but the cars.

Honestly I'll probably put T6 in the 83 GMC next time I change the oil in it, as well as my Jeeps. The Honda and wife's Mazda call for 30W or 20W so I'll keep using GTX in those.

[Nick_R_23]

Originally Posted by Jeepwm69

Do what?

Oil doesn't break down sitting in a bottle, and it doesn't break down sitting in an engine.

You can get condensation in an engine from heat/cold cycles, even with ambient temperatures on an un-run vehicle, and while that condensation gets burned off in cars that are driven regularly, it does not get burned off in engines that are not driven. Oil doesn't just "break down" in an un-run engine. It might get contaminated by moisture.

After seeing a write up on oil filters several years ago where the filters were dissected and evaluated on the filtering material use and the build quality on the rest of the filter, I quit using Fram (the orange can of death).

I use Bosch, Denso, or AC Delco filters, depending on the application. WIX are excellent filters. I usually get on RockAuto and order filters about 10 at a time, and buy whichever "good" brand is in stock and priced reasonably.

I have almost exclusively used Castrol GTX in my engines for 25 years. I had a 93 Accord that I sold with 360K on it that didn't burn a drop of oil and still got 30MPH with no engine work on it, and all I ever put in that engine was GTX.

I have started using 5W40 Rotella T6 quite a bit after seeing the specs on it. I bought it to use in my Tractor and my ATV's (it's JASO MA rated) and the ATV's run cooler and shift better with it, and it's cheap, and extremely versatile so I keep a lot of that on hand to use in pretty much everything but the cars.

Honestly I'll probably put T6 in the 83 GMC next time I change the oil in it, as well as my Jeeps. The Honda and wife's Mazda call for 30W or 20W so I'll keep using GTX in those.

Actually, yes it does. The base oil itself does not (at least not in a measureable way that will affect your vehicle) but the additives included in the oil can and will over time. These are the most important part of your oil as it greatly changes the way it performs against being a simple "base" oil. Things such as Viscosity Improvers, anti-foaming agents, anti-corrosive agents, anti-wear compounds, detergents, oxygen inhibitors, and friction modifiers are all important parts of your oil that can be broken down from heat, oxidation, or combustion by-products either already in the crankcase or added to it during engine run time. Combustion by-products being mixed in the oil can react with additives in the oil, causing unwanted chemicals to be suspended in your oil, even while sitting. That is why it is a good idea to change oils in a vehicle even if it has only been sitting with very little run time.

[tucsonjwt]

I looked for an expiration date on the selection of different brands of oil I have in the shed and did not find one.

[Jeepwm69]

Originally Posted by tucsonjwt

I looked for an expiration date on the selection of different brands of oil I have in the shed and did not find one.

I think my oil expires in 300,246,800 AD

Nick, if an engine isn't run MUCH, then yes, you will get byproducts of combustion in the engine oil, that could contaminate the oil.

If you dump oil in an engine now, and don't run that engine for 20 years, the oil in the engine won't "break down" any more than it does sitting in a bottle on the shelf.

Could it be contaminated by moisture from condensation from repeated changes in temperature around the vehicle? Absolutely.

[Nick_R_23]

Originally Posted by Jeepwm69

I think my oil expires in 300,246,800 AD

Nick, if an engine isn't run MUCH, then yes, you will get byproducts of combustion in the engine oil, that could contaminate the oil.

If you dump oil in an engine now, and don't run that engine for 20 years, the oil in the engine won't "break down" any more than it does sitting in a bottle on the shelf.

Could it be contaminated by moisture from condensation from repeated changes in temperature around the vehicle? Absolutely.

You seem to be stuck on the idea that moisture is the only thing you need to worry about in your oil. Again, there is much more to oil than just water contamination from sitting. In a sealed, new container, nothing is going to happen to your oil (but that's not the topic at hand we are discussing ). However, your engine is far from being a sealed, clean container. The way modern detergent oils work is by cleaning all combustion byproducts from within the crankcase areas, suspending these dirty particles within the oil itself, and then carrying then to the oil filter to be filtered out of the oil. This is why all modern oils appear very dark, even on a fresh oil change. Part of this is because you can never get 100% of your old oil out of your engine, and some gets mixed in with the new oil, but also partly because your oil is doing its job and putting those fancy additives to use.

Now, because we have ran the engine and introduced crankcase contaminants into our oil, you now have soot and other unwanted particles in your fresh oil. Normally this will not cause a problem, as things typically get cycled around during oil flow and 1) get picked up by the oil and brought to the filter and 2) simply don't sit on one part long enough to cause damage, due to constant flow. When you have an engine sit, you no longer have these two things working in your favor. The soot and other particles the oil has picked up during its use are still suspended within the oil. These attack the additives within the oil, causing the oil to turn acidic and damage the metal parts within your engine. Obviously you know that moisture can also be trapped and cause parts to rust as well. And the additives themselves can and do break down as a part of this process.

For example, one of the first things people will notice about an oil is its viscosity rating. For simplicity purposes, these ratings are achieved by adding viscosity index improvers to a base oil. These improvers are long chain polymers suspended within the oil that make it behave as the rating says it will. These polymers can also be attacked and broken down by contaminants in your oil, and if the oil sits for a period and these contaminants are allowed to break down those long chain polymers (aside from them breaking just from extended use) the next time you start your engine, your oil may not have the same viscosity rating it did as when you left it. This will be much more evident in dirtier engine, or one that sits for months or even years, but it happens nonetheless. There are also additives (such as zinc for wear protection, most everybody has heard of that one) that simply get 'used up' as part of the lubrication process. The additives are truly the most important part of your oil, without them the oil wouldn't be capable of doing anywhere near what it is capable of doing today. The "base oil" itself does not wear out, it becomes dirty and contaminated, and if you had the proper equipment, you could actually clean your oil and it would be like new again. However, you would not have any of the additives that makes it what it is. If your car or truck had the capability to properly clean the oil AND you had a way to monitor the additive level to determine what precise amounts of additives that needed to be reintroduced, you would never need to change your oil again. In fact, if you do your research, you will find that there are some industries that do exactly this. The oil level and additive level are constantly monitored and kept within a certain spec, it is not changed. Unfortunately we are not able to do this with production vehicles, and thus that is why oil changes are recommended as frequently as they are, in order to flush old oil filled with contaminants and lacking necessary additives, and introduce fresh, new oil into the system with the proper additives in place. This is why oil changes are recommended by all major OEMs at specific time intervals (such as 6M/6000 miles) regardless of use, not just to get you to buy more oil, but to better protect your engine.

I hope this has been informative and that you all can have healthy, long lived engines.

[bonehead]

AC Delco filters with a magnet stuck to the side, and Mobil 1 oil. Changed every 12,000 mi.

Worked for me, my old suburban was still purring at 250+k miles when I sold it.

[Jeepwm69]

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

You seem to be stuck on the idea that moisture is the only thing you need to worry about in your oil. Again, there is much more to oil than just water contamination from sitting. In a sealed, new container, nothing is going to happen to your oil (but that's not the topic at hand we are discussing ). However, your engine is far from being a sealed, clean container. The way modern detergent oils work is by cleaning all combustion byproducts from within the crankcase areas, suspending these dirty particles within the oil itself, and then carrying then to the oil filter to be filtered out of the oil. This is why all modern oils appear very dark, even on a fresh oil change. Part of this is because you can never get 100% of your old oil out of your engine, and some gets mixed in with the new oil, but also partly because your oil is doing its job and putting those fancy additives to use.

Now, because we have ran the engine and introduced crankcase contaminants into our oil, you now have soot and other unwanted particles in your fresh oil. Normally this will not cause a problem, as things typically get cycled around during oil flow and 1) get picked up by the oil and brought to the filter and 2) simply don't sit on one part long enough to cause damage, due to constant flow. When you have an engine sit, you no longer have these two things working in your favor. The soot and other particles the oil has picked up during its use are still suspended within the oil. These attack the additives within the oil, causing the oil to turn acidic and damage the metal parts within your engine. Obviously you know that moisture can also be trapped and cause parts to rust as well. And the additives themselves can and do break down as a part of this process.

For example, one of the first things people will notice about an oil is its viscosity rating. For simplicity purposes, these ratings are achieved by adding viscosity index improvers to a base oil. These improvers are long chain polymers suspended within the oil that make it behave as the rating says it will. These polymers can also be attacked and broken down by contaminants in your oil, and if the oil sits for a period and these contaminants are allowed to break down those long chain polymers (aside from them breaking just from extended use) the next time you start your engine, your oil may not have the same viscosity rating it did as when you left it. This will be much more evident in dirtier engine, or one that sits for months or even years, but it happens nonetheless. There are also additives (such as zinc for wear protection, most everybody has heard of that one) that simply get 'used up' as part of the lubrication process. The additives are truly the most important part of your oil, without them the oil wouldn't be capable of doing anywhere near what it is capable of doing today. The "base oil" itself does not wear out, it becomes dirty and contaminated, and if you had the proper equipment, you could actually clean your oil and it would be like new again. However, you would not have any of the additives that makes it what it is. If your car or truck had the capability to properly clean the oil AND you had a way to monitor the additive level to determine what precise amounts of additives that needed to be reintroduced, you would never need to change your oil again. In fact, if you do your research, you will find that there are some industries that do exactly this. The oil level and additive level are constantly monitored and kept within a certain spec, it is not changed. Unfortunately we are not able to do this with production vehicles, and thus that is why oil changes are recommended as frequently as they are, in order to flush old oil filled with contaminants and lacking necessary additives, and introduce fresh, new oil into the system with the proper additives in place. This is why oil changes are recommended by all major OEMs at specific time intervals (such as 6M/6000 miles) regardless of use, not just to get you to buy more oil, but to better protect your engine.

I hope this has been informative and that you all can have healthy, long lived engines.

Might want to reread my post that you were arguing with.

You're comparing running an engine infrequently to my saying "Don't run that oil for 20 years"

I understand how oil works. I understand how additives work. I understand that if I run an engine for 5 mins, once a month, that oil needs to be changed frequently.

But that doesn't change the fact that oil does not break down simply sitting in an engine. Oil does not age.

[S10Fan]

AC Delco PF 1218 filters on my Chevys, either Pennzoil or Valvoline depending on which is cheaper at WalMart, 2500 miles between changes except my seldom driven square which I change once a year.

[Nick_R_23]

Originally Posted by Jeepwm69

Might want to reread my post that you were arguing with.

You're comparing running an engine infrequently to my saying "Don't run that oil for 20 years"

I understand how oil works. I understand how additives work. I understand that if I run an engine for 5 mins, once a month, that oil needs to be changed frequently.

But that doesn't change the fact that oil does not break down simply sitting in an engine. Oil does not age.

This is your original statement:

Oil doesn't break down sitting in a bottle, and it doesn't break down sitting in an engine.

I'm addressing this post you made to me when I addressed another member about frequent oil changes even if the miles/usage of the vehicle was low. Now your claims are "oil sitting in sealed container doesn't wear out" and "don't keep the same oil in your engine and let it sit for 20 years", both of which are drastically beside the point that was being made. You have a thin grasp on how oil and additives perform, otherwise, this wouldn't be up for discussion. As shown in my post above, oil, more specifically the additives, get broken down due to combustion particles, fuel vapors, and moisture always present in a crankcase in an engine, and can actually damage and corrode the metal surfaces in an engine. This is (or should be) common knowledge and the reason OEMs include this in any service recommendation.

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by cadillac_al

In oil wear tests the amount of ZDDP doesn't seem to matter. Oils high in ZDDP allow more wear than other oils with less ZDDP. It's mostly a placebo effect now.

I can tell you those tests are certainly not run on pre-1990s engines with flat tappet cams! That's the one place in an engine where metal parts under 100s of pounds pressure continually scuff up against other parts, lubricated only by oil splash.

However, with stock profile cams and valves springs @ 75-80# seat pressure & 200-250# open pressure, lower levels of ZDDP may not be a problem. But at the minimum, some type of break-in lubricant should be used during the critical break-in time when the lobes and lifters mate together. Every knowledgeable engine builder or lubrication engineer will confirm it.

Here's one of many articles on the subject:

"The main use of ZDDP is in anti-wear additives to lubricants such as greases, gear oils, and motor oils, which usually contain from 600ppm for some modern energy conserving low viscosity oils to 2000ppm of this additive in some racing oils.

Crankcase oils with reduced ZDDP have been cited as causing damage to, or failure of, classic/collector car flat tappet camshafts and lifters which undergo very high boundary layer pressures and/or shear forces at their contact faces, and in other regions such as big-end/main bearings, and piston rings and pins. Roller camshafts/followers are more commonly used to reduce camshaft lobe friction in modern engines.[7] There are additives, such as STP(R) Oil Treatment, and some racing oils such as PurOl, Brad Penn and Valvoline VR-1, which are available in the retail market with the necessary amount of ZDDP for engines using increased valve spring pressures. The same ZDDP compounds serve also as corrosion inhibitors and antioxidants."

[DieselSJ]

I run Mobil-1 10/30 in my 454, with a Motorcraft (gasp!) filter. I remember an article a few years back where those filters were the best for the least money. They had lots of filter media, silicone anti-drainback valves, and all the features of the more expensive filters. I have cross-referenced them for all of my vehicles.

[Altec]

I run Rotella 10w30 "diesel oil" in my flat tappets with the cheapest filter I can get. Literally, I currently have a stock of Purolator made filters I got for .50 each. I change oil often, so I don't stress super nice filters.

[Jeepwm69]

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

This is your original statement:

I'm addressing this post you made to me when I addressed another member about frequent oil changes even if the miles/usage of the vehicle was low. Now your claims are "oil sitting in sealed container doesn't wear out" and "don't keep the same oil in your engine and let it sit for 20 years", both of which are drastically beside the point that was being made. You have a thin grasp on how oil and additives perform, otherwise, this wouldn't be up for discussion. As shown in my post above, oil, more specifically the additives, get broken down due to combustion particles, fuel vapors, and moisture always present in a crankcase in an engine, and can actually damage and corrode the metal surfaces in an engine. This is (or should be) common knowledge and the reason OEMs include this in any service recommendation.

I think we're arguing apples to oranges.

I have a 1985 Jeep with 4600 miles on it. I change the oil about every 2-3 times I run it. If I change the oil in the Jeep, and don't run it, that fresh oil is not going to deteriorate from age, assuming it is in a climate controlled area where condensation might occur.

Once I run it, yeah, contaminants are left in the oil, and each time it is run, there will be more contaminants in the oil. Contaminants in the oil are bad.

Are the residual contaminants in the little bit of oil left in the engine after it is drained during an oil change? Yeah, but is it enough to be significant? That's a matter of opinion.

In theory, you are correct. But then again, if one wants to look at things that way, change the oil every time your run the car.