![]() |
Register or Log In To remove these advertisements. |
|
|
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
![]() |
#1 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 134
|
Washer Pump Size Issue
Hey all, have another issue/question that seems to not have been covered so far yet from what I have searched on here.
While I have my cluster, radio, ash tray, etc all out doing my dash harness replacement, I have decided to go ahead and get the windshield washer pump working on my truck. Disclaimer here: While I think it is a great idea/solution for those that plan to use their washer a lot or whatnot, I do NOT want to do a newer model washer pump on the jug modification. I'm doing this just for the hell of it and want to keep this part original as you can tell the difference between the old and new styles. Truthfully after I get it working and tested, it will probably hardly ever be used again as I don't drive my truck in circumstances where I need to use the washer on the windshield. I may use it once or twice a year just to keep the system working and for fun. Ha! Ok, that being said, here is the issue I have run into: The new reproduction pump I bought from LMC looks VERY close to the original I have taken off my truck. However, it is slightly longer and because of this, the actual mounting holes do not match up! I can't screw this new one down to the wiper motor! I checked a couple of the other vendors out to see if any of them listed a difference for a '68 vs the later years (as I've mentioned before, I know the '67 and '68's have a lot of small differences from the '69-'72s) but they all list the pump as for '67-'72. Everything else looks like it will work fine, even the cutout in the plastic cover to make room for the electrical connectors on the motor. When these are lined up with the motor's connector, it lines up the bottom screw hole but the top screw hole is way too high. Man.... you should have seen the rust fall from this old pump when I removed it. Pretty sure it is the original from '68. ![]() Has anyone else ran into this issue before? I've attached some pictures for reference.
__________________
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
The Older Generation
![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montezuma, Iowa
Posts: 25,483
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
-
I will look at some of mine in a while but I'm pretty sure they are all the same. The earlier Chevy trucks had a little different configuration but if I remember correctly it is just that they had an extra terminal on the motor its self. LockDoc
__________________
Leon Locksmith, Specializing In Antique Trucks, Automobiles, & Motorcycles (My Dually Pickup Project Thread) http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=829820 - |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Senior Member
![]() ![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 5,473
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
I installed a reproduction pump on mine about 6 months ago. I remember running into the same issue you are describing, but I can't quite remember what the solution was. In the end, the pump did mount without any modifications. Can you remove that bracket in your second photo that has a part number on it and then use the hole that's next to it instead? Did they include a cylindrical stand-off spacer with the mounting screws?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Registered User
![]() Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Cheraw
Posts: 1,305
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Rockauto lists the same part # for 1966, 1967 and 1968. Also for Chevy car of that year.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Senior Member
![]() ![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 5,473
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
I took a look under my dash, and that bracket is not removable. However, I believe you use the extra hole circled below instead of the hole in the end of the metal base. You have to remove the black plastic cover to get to it. I believe there was a long screw and a spacer provided with my pump.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 134
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Quote:
On a different note, I was able to break my old pump free and clean everything up in it today. It was actually stuck.... But all of the seals looked and felt like new in the actual pump portion. Weird. I am going to try it as well to see if it works now. I may also try that RockAuto pump as well since he mentioned that the part numbers were different for the earlier vehicles. I will figure something out for sure one way or another.
__________________
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 134
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Thanks for this. I may take a look at RA if my original pump still doesn't work now that I have it moving again.
__________________
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 134
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Quote:
Does anyone have experience of mounting the part above on their 67 or 68? Or does anyone know if the washer pump LMC sells is actually the Goodmark part number listed above?
__________________
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 134
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Quote:
__________________
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Senior Member
![]() ![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 5,473
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Here's a photo from the Eckler's website that shows the longer screw and spacer like mine had. If you don't have those, then you're going to need to take a trip to the hardware store.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 134
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
So here are the pictures of the pumps with the covers off side by side. Maybe I shouldn't have said VERY different..... there are obviously quite a few similarities but they are still a long way from being the same thing.
And yea, essentially I can no longer move the gear/plunger mechanism on my old pump again after it was cycled a dozen times or so with the wiper motor gear. I'm leaning more toward just getting a spacer for the LMC pump at this time given what I found about the RockAuto pump. Unless someone wants to chime in on that particular Goodmark pump (which may be exactly what I currently have from LMC), I don't think I want to chance buying theirs as their picture of it looks more like my LMC pump than my truck's original pump. Anyone have or know where I can get a spacer for the LMC pump? If nothing else I can use washers as spacers if I have to..... Oh.... the other thing to note is that the gears on the motors and the mating "nubs" on the pumps are not the same. On my truck's original motor the gear is metal and the nub on the pump is plastic...... on the LMC pump the nub is metal but the pump DID come with a new plastic gear for the motor.... yea, I won't be attempting to change the gears out as it definitely does not want to come off....
__________________
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 134
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Yea, I feel like LMC's should have come with that spacer and longer screw. I will contact them on this. If they can't ship/provide me with the screw and spacer (mainly the spacer) then I will try to return the pump on the grounds that it is not compatible with my truck and will buy the pump from Eckler's.
__________________
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | |
The Older Generation
![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montezuma, Iowa
Posts: 25,483
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Quote:
You should be able to use a piece of metal brake or fuel line and just cut off what you need for the spacer. Any hardware store would have the screw. That would save a lot of hassle on your end. All of the wiper motors I have are all the same. Be sure and prime the pump on first use. LockDoc
__________________
Leon Locksmith, Specializing In Antique Trucks, Automobiles, & Motorcycles (My Dually Pickup Project Thread) http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=829820 - |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 134
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Quote:
__________________
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 | |
The Older Generation
![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montezuma, Iowa
Posts: 25,483
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Quote:
Sounds good. I use a turkey baster to prime the pumps when I work on them. Fill the baster with washer fluid, hook it to the hose at the tank and GENTLY squeeze it while the pump is running. That fills all of the lines..... It works best with 2 people. LockDoc
__________________
Leon Locksmith, Specializing In Antique Trucks, Automobiles, & Motorcycles (My Dually Pickup Project Thread) http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=829820 - |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Washington
Posts: 31
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
I am working on mine as well. Found the diaphragm on my pump bad and have not found a replacement yet. You will need the new star in order for you new pump to work on your old motor and should of come with your pump.
On a side not my wipers are now faster without the pump attached not sure why. But nice to have them moving faster when raining. Last edited by Hunter757; 10-25-2021 at 11:05 AM. Reason: add pics |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Registered User
![]() Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Cheraw
Posts: 1,305
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Note to Hunter, I saw a pump rebuild kit on Rock Auto.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Washington
Posts: 31
|
![]()
Thank you I will have a look.
EDIT: Those rebuilt kits are for the top end only. They don't sell or I have not found a diaphragm for it yet. Hope to find a used on as my pump motor still works fine. This diaphragm attaches to the pump like a brake shoe liner does half turn onto the rod. The whole rubber part turns to attach to arm great design but without replacements makes it hard to get the original pumps going again, for the guys who like factory parts. Last edited by Hunter757; 10-25-2021 at 11:10 AM. Reason: ad pics |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 134
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Well, I got the screw and spacer from the hardware store yesterday and installed the pump on my motor. No joy though; star gear was moving the notch on the pump fine and when I activated the washer button the part would move on the pump but ultimately the actual rod for the pump was/is not moving. Even though the notch part is cycling back and forth, the part "rod" that goes to the diaphragm/actual pump is not catching and moving.
LockDoc - I just sucked on the feed hose like a straw until I got some washer fluid in my mouth.... seemed the best way to prime it to me. Ha. Moot point at the moment; if the pump is not actually cycling then it's not going to work anyway. Hunter - I'm hoping you're wrong on the gear thing as that is where I will draw the line. It will take a puller to pull that metal gear off my motor and I'm not going that far. I actually think it's just a wear thing as the notch on my old pump is actually plastic instead of metal like on the new pump. Size/shape wise I compared them and there really isn't any difference that I could see. It did catch and cycle the new pump's notch fine as mentioned above. At this point I am going to return the LMC pump..... I must have bought the last one they had in stock as I checked the other day and it now says "Backordered" on their site. HA Regardless, they can have this one back as I think it is defective and I am going to purchase one of the Goodmark's from RockAuto and see how it works.
__________________
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 134
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Ok gents! I finally have a working washer pump again..... It was a bit of an ordeal. Strap in, this is a long one! Check the TL : DR and pics if you don't want to read the story version.
So as I last posted; the pump I received from LMC would not work. Basically when the wipers were cycling, it wasn't catching/moving the gear that engages the lever that plunges the diaphragm in the actual pump. After having learned a little more about how these pumps work, it may not actually be defective but just stuck in the position where the nub that catches the star gear on the motor can freewheel. Not sure, neither here nor there at the moment. Yesterday I received the new pump from Rock Auto. Turns out they must source these pumps (which are Goodmark brand, they clearly state that on their website) from "The Parts Place", which I have purchased things from before. More for my old lady's '72 Cutlass than my truck. First two pictures are the pump's box once removed from the RockAuto box. The RockAuto/Goodmark pump is functionally identical to the LMC pump. It does feel a little better put together than the LMC pump (it should, it cost about 1.5X as much) such as the plastic cover clips itself into place instead of having a chincy little piece of carboard that you have to stick between the electrical blades to keep the plastic cover on like on the LMC pump. Being functionally identical, it also mounts identically as in I have to use a longer screw with a spacer (also not included like with the LMC) instead of the two short screws on my original. The RA (RockAuto) pump also comes with a new plastic star gear for the motor, like the LMC. So, I set about mounting this thing on my motor (already have the spacer/longer screw ready to go) without replacing the metal star gear on my motor with the plastic one, same as last time with the LMC pump. Get it on, turn on the motor and lo and behold! The pump starts moving like (I think) it should! Good deal! So I syphon the non-freeze style washer fluid up through the feed hose and connect it real fast (that s&$! tastes horrible..... tingles on my tongue too ![]() I release the washer button to let the pump mechanism cycle to where it (should) quit spraying fluid. Except it never does. I can hear the switch working whenever I push the knob in but no matter what..... it just keeps spraying! So I take the cover off the pump and start taking a closer look. Can't seem to figure it out so I take the pump back off. Fool with it "on the bench" quite awhile and start to really understand how this whole mechanism ACTUALLY works..... (Disclaimer here. I'm sure most of you know, but it REALLY helps to actually understand how something actually works when working on it. Sometimes we can get away with not knowing.... like if this were a like for like swap from my old pump to new.... just swap them out and there you go, should work and I don't need to know how the actual pump/mechanism work. Not the case here). Once I understand how it works, I reinstall the pump and turn on the wiper motor to get it moving again. No more prime and I don't have the hoses connected at this point anyway, so no constant spraying of washer fluid. This is when I notice that although the nub on this pump is moving the lever that operates the pump diaphragm, it is moving the whole assembly just enough to operate the pump but NOT the gear mechanism that turns a full 360 then disengages the diaphragm lever from the sliding nub mechanism. Basically the arm is going back and forth but not back enough to catch the next tooth on the gear. This is/was the root of this issue with this pump (and probably the LMC pump) not working. So I pull the pump back off. What makes the difference in stroke for that arm? The length that the lever nub is moved back and forth...... what controls that distance? The d@*$ star gear..... I grab the plastic star gear and actually hold it right in place with my metal gear on my motor (in my defense, they LOOK identical..... they weren't). Well Hunter757; you were right. The only way this "new style pump (and the LMC) were going to work were if I were to replace my motor's star gear..... So, I give it the old college try, I have my entire dash mostly hollowed out at the moment so I have lots of room to work with a flat screw driver. I get under the actual base of the gear to do a little prying but that thing wouldn't budge. Not even a little. I gave enough force to make it move up (with shaft) from the motor some but it was not coming off the shaft. And I don't want to break my motor. So what to do? Do I replace my motor with a new one? I don't even know if the replacement motors come with the slightly larger (the teeth are longer by about an 1/8" or so) gear already or not. Think about using a piece of rubber hose on the round nub on the new pump to make up the 1/8" difference. Decide that even if it's a tight fit, this will still eventual rub/come off due to being constantly under friction, even if slight, while the wipers are running (then again, I hardly ever drive my truck when I need wipers.). I decide to go back to my old pump and reinvestigate now that I understand how these work a little better. I have realized that the pump switch just activates a small electromagnet that grabs the arm in to start turning the gear a full 360 degrees for the pump to work and then disconnect the system once it comes back around to the right spot. Turns out, everything on my original pump works mechanically fine! I remount, resyphon, etc. but I don't get any luck here...... I then notice that the pump head is not staying mounted to the pump mechanism frame via the two screws like it should (this is a completely different design than the two newer style pumps, it's not a concern on them). Remove the pump and replace the original (I think) two sheet metal screws with machine screws that are longer and go through both the plastic pump body AND the metal frame a decent amount, put a couple of nuts on the bottom. Fixed and Done. (I actually replaced three of them this way as one of the others was feeling "stripy" in the plastic.) Remount, try again (essentially I wasn't getting enough stroke before this due to the pump head being out of the mount). Still no luck. Remove the pump, and reopen the pump head. I had checked it before and as I had mentioned in previous post, the parts LOOKED good but upon actually feeling them, I realized that the little parts inside were very tough. I took the pump head apart on the RA pump and the little inside rubber bits were MUCH softer. I then made the decision..... I took the top half of the pump head that I knew worked for sure off the RA pump and mounted it on my old pump head's diaphragm housing. They were pretty much identical. I was still worried about this working though because my pump's diaphragm is almost certainly original (so over 50 years old). Reinstalled. By this point I had figured out a better, much less nasty tasting, way of bleeding the fluid to the pump: I turned on the washers, activated the pump while out of the truck and used my soft tipped air nozzle on the little hole on the washer jug cap (while holding it down) and forced just a slight bit of air into the system..... Works like a charm. The pressure forces a nice solid stream of fluid all the way to the pump (I have a brake bleeding tool that works similar to this; it adapts (or you make adapters out of spare master cylinder caps) to the master cylinder and forces fluid at pressure (about 25 psi) out of whatever bleeder you open while under pressure. Best d@*& brake bleeder I've ever seen.) Anyway, back on topic, it worked! I started getting squirts of fluid out my nozzle connections so I hooked them back up to the nozzle hoses, ran it through some more and all is good! It is not as strong as the RA pump was but it still works good and since I will probably never actually need to use it anyway, I am happy. What an ordeal! Check the two pics of the old mechanism with the new pump installed, with and without the plastic cover. Also my new washer fluid jug. Mine mounts on the core support and not the driver side fender. Mount holes were present and all. TL;DR: I ended up using the top half of the new RockAuto pump head assembly on my old pump diaphragm housing and fixing a mounting issue with said pump head to mechanism frame. So here are a couple of questions for you guys both for my curiosity and for others that may read through this thread having the same issues: Can any of you confirm that your original washer motors (or anyone that has purchased a new/repo) have the plastic star gear? Have any of you successfully removed the metal star gear and replaced it with the plastic one provided by these new repo pumps? I will tell you all this; I am happy that I am able to retain my original pump mechanism. Not because of originality purposes (my truck is far from original) but because both of the repo pump mechanisms are VERY flimsy compared to my original mechanism, especially the electrical blade connectors. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad/grateful they're available. They just aren't built near as well/stout as my 50+ year old original. Lastly: Hunter757 if you read this, sorry I can't help you out on the diaphragm sir. As you can see, I ended up still using mine in the end. I still think mine has some small cracks in it but it is obviously still serviceable. If you ever do come across where to buy a new diaphragm, I'd love to know!
__________________
![]() Last edited by Six862m6; 11-01-2021 at 07:00 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Washington
Posts: 31
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Well DONE. Long read but worth it. now it fixed and you were able to keep the original pump good on you. Yah that diaphragm will be a hard one to find. I was even looking at your pictures trying to see if I could remove one from the new pump and use it but can't really tell. Might have to do what you did and just order one and see what I can do with it. Happy you got it fixed!!
Oh and yes will let you know if I do find them! Last edited by Hunter757; 10-28-2021 at 10:05 AM. Reason: add comment |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 134
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Quote:
__________________
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 |
The Older Generation
![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montezuma, Iowa
Posts: 25,483
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
-
A couple of things, maybe they are mentioned and I didn't catch it.... Some full size GM vehicles used the same washer pump. Corvair cars used the exact same wiper motor as our trucks. https://www.classicchevy.com/full-si...ails_tab-title naturally they are out of stock.... Also, your washer fluid tank is mounted on your core support, not the firewall. I will have to check some of my wiper motors but I am pretty sure they all have a metal gear on them. Nice write-up on the repair. Thanks, LockDoc
__________________
Leon Locksmith, Specializing In Antique Trucks, Automobiles, & Motorcycles (My Dually Pickup Project Thread) http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=829820 - Last edited by LockDoc; 10-28-2021 at 11:13 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 134
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Quote:
Nice catch on the firewall/core support swap. Early morning write ups, I was still drinking my coffee. Ha! I will correct it in my original post. The diaphragms in the new pumps will not fit the old pump. The housing and shape of the diaphragms are not at all similar unfortunately. Interesting if they are all metal.... If they're all as hard to get off the shaft as mine is, that's a real problem I would think.
__________________
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 |
Senior Member
![]() ![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 5,473
|
Re: Washer Pump Size Issue
Nicely done. I like that you were able to reuse most of the original pump. If I remember correctly, this is how I removed the cam gear from my motor.
1) Clamp a wrench in a vise 2) Hang the motor in the wrench by the cam gear 3) Insert a small punch through the hole in the cam gear and tap on it with a hammer. This pushes the shaft out of the gear Does the following kit contain all of the components you replaced? https://www.classicparts.com/mobile/...ctinfo/67-835/ |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|