And so it begins................

[70 Suburban]

lol
Im just glad I live in texas... There is no way I would be able to live there...no just no

[JohnC]

Originally Posted by 70 Suburban

lol
Im just glad I live in texas... There is no way I would be able to live there...no just no

It's not usually this bad. We maybe have one or two winter storms a year, and they usually don't drop this amount of snow and ice. Usually it snows one day, and is gone the next.

[scotts62]

Originally Posted by 70 Suburban

lol
Im just glad I live in texas... There is no way I would be able to live there...no just no

Thats ok i say the same thing about you guys every year when going to the NHRA race in Enos, you guys are nuts driving

[highperf4x4]

I just hate having to slow down at night on the interstates in Texas! I mean what's up with that?

[scotts62]

They dont slow down! the wife and i went down for a concert one time and we were headed back around 1am i was pushing 90mph just to keep up with the flow of traffic and sure enough oh Johnny hi-po sitting under a bridge seemed he was only interested in my tag light not working and never said anything about the speed and let me go

[70 Suburban]

who slows down at night.. i look at that as for the big truck.. not for me... 10 over is the rule here.. most cops done mess with you till your atleast 10 0ver.lol but dont get caught with no plate lites.. they will get you every time

[highperf4x4]

Well I scored some misc stuff today. Some serpentine pieces, oil cooler adapter, pan for driver's side dipstick, ..... heads, etc. The heads appear to be 65cc chambers.

[joe231]

I can't hardly see the number.... Are those vortecs or TBI heads.
Is John getting the serp stuff?

[highperf4x4]

TBI heads but they're 65cc and 1.94 intake valves. The number is 14102193

I don't think John wants this serp stuff and it's only the driver's side bracket but it has the idler and the tensioner. This is just some stuff I picked up from the father-in-laws shop. I already have the crank that came out of that motor too.

[joe231]

Oh
cool
I thought it was some of the stuff you were getting from Monte....

So, guess what?
I have the passenger side serp stuff.....I just need the drivers side

EDIT: nevermind, I just went back and looked.
The bracket in the pic is the passenger side. That is the same one I have.
Driver side has the alternator and power steering pump.

[highperf4x4]

Thanks for the correction.

[JohnC]

Looks like you had a nice little scavenger hunt.

[highperf4x4]

Originally Posted by JohnC

Looks like you had a nice little scavenger hunt.

Yeah and guess what? I also scored an old motor they had sitting in the corner too. I wasn't sure it was worth messing with so I just got the numbers off the block and heads to see what it was first and although it appears to be only a 305, it does have the 58cc heads on it and another aluminum 4bbl intake manifold!!

Hopefully the heads arent cracked. It does have one of the elcetronic quadrajets on it too but I don't care for those.

[Zoomin]

What's that stuff going on?

[tim21391]

hows the project goin.. you gonna use them heads? i knurled my old heads for my 347 stoker and grinded the seats.. so they should be stealthy when i put them on a 289 on one of my two mustangs

[highperf4x4]

Originally Posted by Zoomin

What's that stuff going on?

I'm picking up a 4bolt 350 block from a ZZ4 crate engine from Kolt along with a 400 crank and rods to build a 383 with. I'm also picking up some vortec heads from him to go on it too. I'm gonna try to hit 450hp with it and then drop it in the 4x4. The engine I have in it now is a 355 that's about 350hp. I know I'm going to have to upgrade some driveline parts since the 355 is already tearing stuff up.

My current plan is to drop the 355 into the '72 for a while so I can take my time building the 402 that's in it now. It's gonna take alot more time to build the 402 and I don't want the truck to sit while I'm doing it.

I'm also planning on putting the 65cc TBI heads on the 355 before I stick it in the '72. The heads on there now are the original 76cc heads. Both sets of heads have 1.94 intake valves but the TBI heads should have a slightly larger intake runner. Additionally, I'm going to replace the 1.5 ratio roller tip rockers with 1.6 ratio to increase the valve lift. It should be an easy 1hr upgrade of about 50hp to bring the 355 up to 400hp. I'm just not sure if it will still run on pump gas as it will be close to 11:1 compression. And Scott will have to help me with a posi unit to go behind it.

I won't need that much compression to get more power out of the 383 though. The vortec heads will breathe alot better and the longer stroke and bigger cam will take care of the rest.

The oil cooler adapter will go on the 383 in the 4x4 and I will get a radiator from a Z71 to with it. When I get to some serious mud it will help the engine tremendously.

The rest of that stuff is just backup pieces or future project parts.

You catch all that?

Originally Posted by tim21391

hows the project goin.. you gonna use them heads? i knurled my old heads for my 347 stoker and grinded the seats.. so they should be stealthy when i put them on a 289 on one of my two mustangs

I am considering some headwork on the TBI heads to bring them up to the level of the gen1 heads I have on there now. The original heads have screw in rocker studs, Z28 springs (which I will try to use on the TBI heads if I can) and I'd like to grind them out for some 2.02 intake valves. Not sure about that though.

The 58cc heads I'm pulling off the 305 I can't use on either of these engines. The compression ratio would be off the chart and they're actually light duty heads that came on 4bbl 305 applications. If you run them on a 350 and overheat them they will crack. But, they are fantastic for bolting onto a stock 350 with dished pistons as an easy hp upgrade. I did it to an old '76 model chevy I had once. Made a HUGE improvement over stock. You are limited on valve size though. They only have 1.84 intake valves. But for stock motors that rarely get over 5000rpm they work fine. They really improve power on the bottom end.

[JohnC]

I thought you liked the big block in the 72?

[scotts62]

Not to ruff the feathers at all but to get the HP out of the rockers you will need the roller cam to go with it and decreed in to actually notice any good out of the $250+ rockers, i had the full roller 1.6 rockers on the 62 with the tunnel ram and the only thing that really seemed like it changed was the thump of the cam since it makes a tit more lift. Now i didnt want to spend the dyno money every time i changed something just to see what helped or not so i cant say that it helped or hurt..

As for the gears heck yeah but if your planning on hopping up the engine that much and want something to last just plan on spending about $500 on an Auburn Locker, you will like that bad boy

['72customdeluxe]

I don't forsee tbi heads getting anywhere near 400. They're horrendous. You might be able to get away with 10:1 with a larger than stock cam and a nice cooling system/cold air for the engine to breathe with the improved chamber design. 11:1, yeah. With a 30/30 cam

[scotts62]

No tbi is work truck material i would stick some vortec heads on it just mildly pocket port them, have them stud and guide plated put a 292 comp cam in it for 500/501 lift, do the 383 short block and find some mud puddles

But thats just me..

I have a fresh bored and decked block and stroker crank thats ground and ready to go just waiting for the 62

[highperf4x4]

Originally Posted by JohnC

I thought you liked the big block in the 72?

I must have lost ya. The 355 is going into the '72 to give me more time to build the 402 the way I want it. Then it will go back in.

Originally Posted by scotts62

Not to ruff the feathers at all but to get the HP out of the rockers you will need the roller cam to go with it and decreed in to actually notice any good out of the $250+ rockers, i had the full roller 1.6 rockers on the 62 with the tunnel ram and the only thing that really seemed like it changed was the thump of the cam since it makes a tit more lift. Now i didnt want to spend the dyno money every time i changed something just to see what helped or not so i cant say that it helped or hurt..

As for the gears heck yeah but if your planning on hopping up the engine that much and want something to last just plan on spending about $500 on an Auburn Locker, you will like that bad boy

I don't run roller rockers. I run "roller tip" rockers. There isn't any need to degree a cam to switch from stock 1.5 to 1.6 ratio rockers. It only increases valve lift. The duration/overlap will remain the same. The addition of approximately 50hp is a combination of going from a 76cc combustion chamber to a 65cc combustion chamber, a larger intake runner, and increased valve lift without having to change the cam. The 355 already has roller tip rockers but they're stock ratio. You can run roller tip rockers on any engine. They reduce drag on the valve train with the roller tips and they're alot thicker were the pushrod meets the rocker than a stock style stamped steel rocker so you won't shove a pushrod through like I did on the stock ones.

Here's a link to the rockers from summit for 80.00
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-1412-8/

I'll show you a pic of mine.






Now about this Auburn Locker.............. you gonna get me a better discount?

Originally Posted by '72customdeluxe

I don't forsee tbi heads getting anywhere near 400. They're horrendous. You might be able to get away with 10:1 with a larger than stock cam and a nice cooling system/cold air for the engine to breathe with the improved chamber design. 11:1, yeah. With a 30/30 cam

I might have to bring you up to speed on this.

I can build an engine with 305 heads and make more than 400hp. They just wouldn't hold up for long because they are light duty. TBI heads are not.

This motor isn't stock though. It's a 350hp engine right now! It's bored .030 over, forged flat top pistons, double roller chain, edelbrock 2102 cam, comp magnum roller tip rockers, balanced, blueprinted, etc. The heads are the original 1976 heads though. They have 76cc combustion chambers (milled to approx 72cc), 1.94 intake valves, 1.50 exhaust valves, screw in rocker studs, and single Z28 valve springs good for up to .520 lift. The TBI heads have the same size valves but with a smaller 65cc combustion chamber. They also have slightly larger intake runners for better flow. They also have a raised valve cover seat to reduce oil leaks around valve cover gaskets as high rpm from a performance engine always creates more blowby. They are certainly improvements over gen1 cylinder heads and have no disadvantages other than they are not as good as a vortec head which has an even larger intake runner. They WILL make more power on this engine than the heads on it now and they're a heavy casting.

I don't follow what you're trying to say on the compression though. The engine is 10:1 right now with the old heads. With the TBI heads (going from a 72cc combustion chamber to a 65cc combustion chamber) it will be 11:1. The issue will be fuel, not cam. There isn't enough octance even in super unleaded to keep an engine with 11:1 compression from burning a hole in a valve or a piston regardless of what cam you're running.

[highperf4x4]

Originally Posted by scotts62

No tbi is work truck material i would stick some vortec heads on it just mildly pocket port them, have them stud and guide plated put a 292 comp cam in it for 500/501 lift, do the 383 short block and find some mud puddles

But thats just me..

I have a fresh bored and decked block and stroker crank thats ground and ready to go just waiting for the 62

I will only have one set of vortecs to use and they're going on the 383 for the 4x4. That engine will be a whole different ball game.

The 355 in the 4x4 will be going into the '72 temporarily with the TBI heads instead of the old gen1's. The 355 will basically become my backup/replacement engine but I want to increase it's output just because "it's never enough".

['72customdeluxe]

According to "PaulD" on thirdgen.org the 193 (350 1.94) heads flow this
INTAKE

Stock SP #193 . Modded SP modded Vortec

.100 70.7 68.1 55.8

.150 101.7 100 89.2

.200 124 125 123.5

.250 140 144 160

.300 146.5 154.7 186

.350 150.1 164.8 203.8

.400 154.7 171.3 228

.450 158.2 175.4 235

.500 160.4 177.4 228


EXHAUST

.100 47.8 51.7 42.9

.150 70.4 73.1 66.6

.200 85.1 93.7 90.1

.250 97.6 112.3 112.2

.300 112.3 129.7 129

.350 120.5 145 142.6

.400 125 156.3 152.6

.450 129.2 164.6 160.9

.500 129.2 162.5 166.5

The following parameters apply:

1. None of the heads had a three angle seat cut.
2. The L31 and stock 193 head used a single angle cut on the valve.
3. The modded 193 head used a 30 degree back cut on both the intake and exhaust valve.

What's it all mean? First of all, I make no claim to be a professional porter or even a good one, only what an educated amateur can do. It has been a knock against the 906 Vortec head that it does not flow as well as the later 062 casting. Looks like that might be right. I plan on relooking at the 906 exhausts to see what else may be able to be done.
The SP heads flowed very well at low lifts. The intake ports have a convoluted path with the pushrod on one side of the port, then the head bolt hole on the opposite side and severe undercuts below the bowl that were too deep to remove even opening the bowl diameter to 1.75. From .200 and up, the Vortecs flowed better.

Other observations are yours to make.

My apologies for not being able to format the data more clearly. It typed out clearly but I can't seem to get enough space between the columns.

['72customdeluxe]

Basically, don't waste your time. Your average 441/882 smogger will flow around 202 cfm stock. This will be a pile of dog mess if the numbers above are correct

[highperf4x4]

I can make out the list no problem. I don't know PaulD though. Are these his own numbers? Actually the 461 casting with 64cc chambers and 2.02 intake valves can flow up to 224cfm. With 441 you're looking at 76cc chambers. So, flow is not the only consideration unless you're blown or supercharged.

My question would be this. At what lift do the old heads pull the 202cfm and does he have a comparison chart for those heads by lift?

I am still dropping from a 72cc chamber to a 65cc chamber and increasing valve lift by way of rocker ratio although I can do that to either head.