An expensive lesson learned - The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network

Mike Bradbury · 10-17-2011, 07:43 PM

As many of you know this all started with a bent push rod in my SBC on the way to the Brothers truck show in July. My work schedule is pretty tight so I have not been able to dedicate a lot of time to fixing the problem.

I did not know why the rod failed because there was no piston to valve contact and there was no damaged component other than the push rod. I ended up upgrading the valve springs and push rods, converted to threaded rocker studs and guide plates. I then wanted to inspect the timing chain to make sure it did not slip a tooth, the timing chain has about 1/2 inch slop in it, but has not slipped. The one thing that made my heart sink was when I pulled the pan on my 14,000 mi crate motor there was all kinds of microscopic shavings in the bottom. Almost looked like graphite, until you get a magnet next to it and the slivers stand on end. Now I am looking at a complete rebuild. The main bearings are shot and I am now tearing it all down to a bare block.

The reason I am posting this in the general discussion and not the engine forum is because I was not planing on touching the engine during my build, it was the newest part on the truck when I started. But when it failed I when into investigation mode to figure out why it died after only 14,000 miles.

As a warning for all you guys out there who think motor oil is motor oil, take it from me and my expensive lesson, that they are not. I have run most of my vehicles on Mobil One so that is what I put in the C10. After about 6 months I started hearing stories about the zinc content in the modern oils, and I thought that well I will just finish this round with the synthetic and then change to something else. Well it did not make it that far and I am paying heavily for it.

The modern engines of today come standard with roller rockers and lifters, therefore the motor oil companies have reduced the zinc in the oil which helps lubricate the cam and lifters. Check the zinc in your oil. I am fortunate to live right down the road from Crower racing products and they do a lot of testing on motor oil. Just talked to them today and they said that they do not recommend any synthetic oils on flat tappet engines because they cannot guarantee damage will not occur.

Lee H · 10-17-2011, 08:03 PM

Are you saying the shavings are from the cam lobes?
Posted via Mobile Device

Mt Man Chad · 10-17-2011, 08:08 PM

Yep not the first time I've heard this. Same thing happened to a buddy's brand new big block with lots of $$$ into it.

http://www.zddplus.com/

**leddzepp** · 10-17-2011, 08:17 PM

I use Mobil 1 along with a zddp additive.

Painter D · 10-17-2011, 08:59 PM

Happened to me once also bud, it sucks.

In any of my flat tappet engines I run Valvoline VR1 now, it has plenty of zddp in it.

Mt Man Chad · 10-17-2011, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leddzepp

I use Mobil 1 along with a zddp additive.

Always works in my rigs!

domeier · 10-17-2011, 09:02 PM

I don't mean to be negative, but I'd tend to place more suspicion on the engine build than a particular brand of oil. Be interested to hear what you find out when you tear it down. Whatever the cause, I feel your pain. That sucks.

Pont406 · 10-17-2011, 09:26 PM

I posted this before from Crower:

Use of Synthetic Oils
Crower does not recommend the use of synthetic motor oil in any application, particularly in hydraulic and flat tappet camshafts. If your car manufacturer's owners manual suggests running synthetic oil, you may do so. The minimum gains in horsepower are offset by the excessive wear to cam and lifter surfaces. We have found that the benefits, of synthetic motor oil, do not outweigh the costs and may endanger your engine's life. Crower recommends a non-detergent / race only petroleum based 30wt. motor oil in all performance applications. The lack of phosphorus and zinc in current oil blends is catastrophic to engine longevity. For all applications we do recommend running our ZDDPlus additive, which adds zinc and phosphorus back into the oil. For additional information on oil, click here!

http://www.crower.com/faq/#h

Mike Bradbury · 10-17-2011, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by domeier

I don't mean to be negative, but I'd tend to place more suspicion on the engine build than a particular brand of oil. Be interested to hear what you find out when you tear it down. Whatever the cause, I feel your pain. That sucks.

It was a GM crate motor, factory built, I had powder coated the oil pan just 1000 miles before the rod bent, so the pan was very clean with no sludge what so ever. When I reinstalled the pan I put in Mobil One for the first time. and only drove it on the week ends and then the long haul to the Brothers show. I will post a picture of the came when I get it out but since I have the engine upside down and I can see the lobes better, they look like there is more damage than I first thought. But all those little shavings have gotten into everything.

I am upgrading it all to roller everything so I never have to worry about zinc again.

bigsnookmaster · 10-18-2011, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

It was a GM crate motor, factory built, I had powder coated the oil pan just 1000 miles before the rod bent, so the pan was very clean with no sludge what so ever. When I reinstalled the pan I put in Mobil One for the first time. and only drove it on the week ends and then the long haul to the Brothers show. I will post a picture of the came when I get it out but since I have the engine upside down and I can see the lobes better, they look like there is more damage than I first thought. But all those little shavings have gotten into everything.

I am upgrading it all to roller everything so I never have to worry about zinc again.

I feel your pain! Sorry to hear about that. I have been running a solid roller for a couple of years, with no problems so far. I also run Jesel shaft rockers, and Isky red-zone e-z roll lifters. They don't come out of adjustment. It's expensive, but if it lasts, it's worth it. .02

406 Q-ship · 10-18-2011, 11:11 AM

I believe that Mobil has a synthetic that still carries the zinc of the older spec oils. I will have to look and try to find where I read that to post here. Synthetic isn't the problem it is the lack of the zinc, all oils currently sold out of the regular retail stores lack the zinc needed for scrubber cams. I use either Diesel (rotello) oil or add a can of STP (still has the zinc), one day I will make the switch to a roller cam engine but for now it is additive.

big d's red67 · 10-18-2011, 11:18 AM

Happened to my BBC after 15 miles on the motor, I have a roller cam now. hate you had the same problem.

domeier · 10-18-2011, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

It was a GM crate motor, factory built

Okay. Now I'm terrified.

k5hart · 10-18-2011, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 69chevyshort

Happened to me once also bud, it sucks.

In any of my flat tappet engines I run Valvoline VR1 now, it has plenty of zddp in it.

I run this in my blazer. ^^

Have heard this story many times on other boards. Some don't have problems. Some kill the engine in 20 miles. Sorry for the loss.

OhOneWS6 · 10-18-2011, 12:01 PM

Thank you for posting this. Hopefully it will save someone else. It still surprises me that with every example of this issue, there are those who read the evidence and still think you can run a flat tappet cam without zinc in the oil.

It's not just the evolution of roller motors in modern vehicles that has resulted in the removal of zinc from motor oil. A roller motor will survive just fine with zinc in the oil. The EPA wants heavy metals out of the oil.

This is something that is changing daily. Even if your oil of choice had zinc in it last time you purchased it, check the label the next time you buy it. it also depends on where you live. Here in TX we can still buy VR1 off the shelf. not sure you can do that in CA.

OJ1988 · 10-18-2011, 12:05 PM

MAgazines have been harping on this for a couple years now.

I thought it was pretty common knowledge at this point that if you are running a flat tappet cam, you need to add zinc or find some specialty oil with it still in it.

I 'm using Brad Penn Green oil in my flat tappet motor.

**leddzepp** · 10-18-2011, 12:19 PM

From a Corvette forum, regarding VR-1: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...ht-it-was.html

eightbanger · 10-18-2011, 01:33 PM

Thanks for the heads up...sorry it had to come at such cost to you though.

m6z · 10-18-2011, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 69chevyshort

Happened to me once also bud, it sucks.

In any of my flat tappet engines I run Valvoline VR1 now, it has plenty of zddp in it.

That's what I run in flat tappet motors as well.

*C-10 simplex* · 10-18-2011, 02:02 PM

1) Which gm crate engine is this?

a) Are you positive that the oil caused the problem?; i have a crate engine horror story as well which i can refer if/when i find the link. i'm still not totally sure what caused the rod to bend, but it started with a bent pushrod as well. You may already be familiar with my story but i will try to find the link anyways.

2) NOTE: i use redline synthetic because this is one of the few oils i can find that has enough zddp in it because all my cars have flat lifters.

**RenoKeene** · 10-18-2011, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leddzepp

From a Corvette forum, regarding VR-1: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...ht-it-was.html

Wow! I read the entire thread you linked to. Seems the most economically sensible thing to run in my basically stock flat tappet 402 is any decent non-synthetic with a high ZDDP additive as simple as STP.
You stated earlier you use Mobil 1 with an additive. Which additive do you use?
Mine is the original motor that came in my truck, not high RPM build.
Thanks.

BTW, everyone with a flat tappet build should read that thread!

**RenoKeene** · 10-18-2011, 02:14 PM

Damn sure don't want to have to tear this down after 14,000 miles!

Sorry for the highjack and sorry about your engine trouble but you may have just saved me from the same fate. Thanks.

**leddzepp** · 10-18-2011, 02:42 PM

I use ZDDPlus additive. From what I have read, STP will also work. Some folks also use GM break-in lube because of the high zinc content.

OJ1988 · 10-18-2011, 02:46 PM

And, it seems just about everyone is selling 'break in oil' with added zinc now as well.

There are plenty of options out there, you just gotta look at the labels.

pumpkin · 10-18-2011, 04:20 PM

I've been saying this for years now, but no one realy listens. Additives don't work very well, as the modern oils drasticaly reduce there effectiveness. There are two ways around this problem that I have found. Use a racing/off road use ony oil such as Joe Gibbs racing oil, or go full roller on you engine. Full roller is my choice, as that is one of the main reason modern engines are able to rack up so manny miles without trouble. As a mechanic I regularly see engines with 200,000 plus on them, and still running fine.

10-17-2011, 07:43 PM	#1
Mike Bradbury Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: San Diego California Posts: 1,316	An expensive lesson learned As many of you know this all started with a bent push rod in my SBC on the way to the Brothers truck show in July. My work schedule is pretty tight so I have not been able to dedicate a lot of time to fixing the problem. I did not know why the rod failed because there was no piston to valve contact and there was no damaged component other than the push rod. I ended up upgrading the valve springs and push rods, converted to threaded rocker studs and guide plates. I then wanted to inspect the timing chain to make sure it did not slip a tooth, the timing chain has about 1/2 inch slop in it, but has not slipped. The one thing that made my heart sink was when I pulled the pan on my 14,000 mi crate motor there was all kinds of microscopic shavings in the bottom. Almost looked like graphite, until you get a magnet next to it and the slivers stand on end. Now I am looking at a complete rebuild. The main bearings are shot and I am now tearing it all down to a bare block. The reason I am posting this in the general discussion and not the engine forum is because I was not planing on touching the engine during my build, it was the newest part on the truck when I started. But when it failed I when into investigation mode to figure out why it died after only 14,000 miles. As a warning for all you guys out there who think motor oil is motor oil, take it from me and my expensive lesson, that they are not. I have run most of my vehicles on Mobil One so that is what I put in the C10. After about 6 months I started hearing stories about the zinc content in the modern oils, and I thought that well I will just finish this round with the synthetic and then change to something else. Well it did not make it that far and I am paying heavily for it. The modern engines of today come standard with roller rockers and lifters, therefore the motor oil companies have reduced the zinc in the oil which helps lubricate the cam and lifters. Check the zinc in your oil. I am fortunate to live right down the road from Crower racing products and they do a lot of testing on motor oil. Just talked to them today and they said that they do not recommend any synthetic oils on flat tappet engines because they cannot guarantee damage will not occur. __________________ I'd rather attempt something great and fail.. than try something ordinary and succeed. Norman Vincent Peale Project: Barn Raising http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=414961 Project: 30 Be Low https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=830583

10-17-2011, 08:03 PM	#2
Lee H Registered User Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Upland Ca Posts: 4,147	Re: An expensive lesson learned Are you saying the shavings are from the cam lobes? Posted via Mobile Device __________________ 1972 C10 SWB, Air, PS, PB, 350/350THM. Second owner. 1965 Corvette roadster, 44K miles, 327/365 SHP, 4 speed, side exhaust, knockoffs, teak, second owner (bought in 1970), Have ALL numbers matching components. My frame off restoration thread: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=556703

10-17-2011, 08:08 PM	#3
Mt Man Chad Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Oakridge Oregon Posts: 1,865	Re: An expensive lesson learned Yep not the first time I've heard this. Same thing happened to a buddy's brand new big block with lots of $$$ into it. http://www.zddplus.com/ __________________ 68 CST SWB - Gold/White 50th anniversary /TH350/Buddy Buckets/3.73 Posi/dogdish caps. 68 K10 Burb - Gold/White 327/SM465/NP205/3.73 "Daa Burb" build thread Last edited by Mt Man Chad; 10-17-2011 at 09:07 PM.

10-17-2011, 08:17 PM	#4
leddzepp Moderator Join Date: May 2007 Location: Southern Cal Posts: 20,018	Re: An expensive lesson learned I use Mobil 1 along with a zddp additive. __________________ 1972 C/10 Cheyenne Super SWB. Restored, loaded, slammed. 1968 C/10 50th Anniversary LWB. Unrestored, stock, daily driver/work truck. RIP ElJay RIP 67ChevyRedneck RIP Grumpy Old Man RIP FleetsidePaul

10-17-2011, 08:59 PM	#5
Painter D Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: DFW (Forney) Posts: 1,529	Re: An expensive lesson learned Happened to me once also bud, it sucks. In any of my flat tappet engines I run Valvoline VR1 now, it has plenty of zddp in it. __________________ '58 SWB Fleetside...Front & Rear Porterbuilt Dropmember, 6.0 LS /4L60E. Accuair E-level, 20 Billet Specialties (Vintecs) '63 Buick Riviera ... AccuAir E-level, 20" Billet Specialties (Vintecs) http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=528853&page=5

10-17-2011, 09:02 PM	#7
domeier Registered User Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 784	Re: An expensive lesson learned I don't mean to be negative, but I'd tend to place more suspicion on the engine build than a particular brand of oil. Be interested to hear what you find out when you tear it down. Whatever the cause, I feel your pain. That sucks.

10-17-2011, 09:26 PM	#8
Pont406 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: West Hills, California Posts: 679	Re: An expensive lesson learned I posted this before from Crower: Use of Synthetic Oils Crower does not recommend the use of synthetic motor oil in any application, particularly in hydraulic and flat tappet camshafts. If your car manufacturer's owners manual suggests running synthetic oil, you may do so. The minimum gains in horsepower are offset by the excessive wear to cam and lifter surfaces. We have found that the benefits, of synthetic motor oil, do not outweigh the costs and may endanger your engine's life. Crower recommends a non-detergent / race only petroleum based 30wt. motor oil in all performance applications. The lack of phosphorus and zinc in current oil blends is catastrophic to engine longevity. For all applications we do recommend running our ZDDPlus additive, which adds zinc and phosphorus back into the oil. For additional information on oil, click here! http://www.crower.com/faq/#h

10-18-2011, 11:11 AM	#11
406 Q-ship Registered User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 632	Re: An expensive lesson learned I believe that Mobil has a synthetic that still carries the zinc of the older spec oils. I will have to look and try to find where I read that to post here. Synthetic isn't the problem it is the lack of the zinc, all oils currently sold out of the regular retail stores lack the zinc needed for scrubber cams. I use either Diesel (rotello) oil or add a can of STP (still has the zinc), one day I will make the switch to a roller cam engine but for now it is additive. __________________ Lifes journey is not to arrive at the gate well preserved, it is to slide in sideways all used up and wore out yelling.....God what'a ride! Where patience fails, force prevails Stapp's Ironical Paradox "The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle."

10-18-2011, 11:18 AM	#12
big d's red67 Registered User Join Date: May 2010 Location: Broken Arrow Okla. Posts: 510	Re: An expensive lesson learned Happened to my BBC after 15 miles on the motor, I have a roller cam now. hate you had the same problem. __________________ 1967 swb 454 cid 700R4 trans SOLD 2006 Chevy Trailblazer SS 2013 Camaro RS convertible the wife's Build thread http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=573248

10-18-2011, 12:01 PM	#15
OhOneWS6 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 764	Re: An expensive lesson learned Thank you for posting this. Hopefully it will save someone else. It still surprises me that with every example of this issue, there are those who read the evidence and still think you can run a flat tappet cam without zinc in the oil. It's not just the evolution of roller motors in modern vehicles that has resulted in the removal of zinc from motor oil. A roller motor will survive just fine with zinc in the oil. The EPA wants heavy metals out of the oil. This is something that is changing daily. Even if your oil of choice had zinc in it last time you purchased it, check the label the next time you buy it. it also depends on where you live. Here in TX we can still buy VR1 off the shelf. not sure you can do that in CA. __________________ 72 Cheyenne Super 1/2 LWB White/Dark Yellow 07 Avalanche 2LT 74 Sleek Craft Rebel Jet Boat W/Pontiac 400 Last edited by OhOneWS6; 10-18-2011 at 12:12 PM.

10-18-2011, 12:05 PM	#16
OJ1988 Just a car guy Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New Washington, IN Posts: 991	Re: An expensive lesson learned MAgazines have been harping on this for a couple years now. I thought it was pretty common knowledge at this point that if you are running a flat tappet cam, you need to add zinc or find some specialty oil with it still in it. I 'm using Brad Penn Green oil in my flat tappet motor. __________________ 1955 belair Blown Pro Street cruiser 1971 Camaro Pro Touring 1973 Vega Drag Car 1970 C20 tow rig

10-18-2011, 12:19 PM	#17
leddzepp Moderator Join Date: May 2007 Location: Southern Cal Posts: 20,018	Re: An expensive lesson learned From a Corvette forum, regarding VR-1: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...ht-it-was.html __________________ 1972 C/10 Cheyenne Super SWB. Restored, loaded, slammed. 1968 C/10 50th Anniversary LWB. Unrestored, stock, daily driver/work truck. RIP ElJay RIP 67ChevyRedneck RIP Grumpy Old Man RIP FleetsidePaul

10-18-2011, 01:33 PM	#18
eightbanger 454 MAKES IT ROAR Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Essex, U.K Posts: 2,701	Re: An expensive lesson learned Thanks for the heads up...sorry it had to come at such cost to you though. __________________ Nigel. An American living in a British body. 1971 Chevy Cheyenne 10 454 "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty" - Thomas Jefferson No more pain. 03.12.60 -- 12.28.10 http://www.youtube.com/Eightbanger

10-18-2011, 02:02 PM	#20
C-10 simplex Account Suspended Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: indisclosed Posts: 1,515	Re: An expensive lesson learned 1) Which gm crate engine is this? a) Are you positive that the oil caused the problem?; i have a crate engine horror story as well which i can refer if/when i find the link. i'm still not totally sure what caused the rod to bend, but it started with a bent pushrod as well. You may already be familiar with my story but i will try to find the link anyways. 2) NOTE: i use redline synthetic because this is one of the few oils i can find that has enough zddp in it because all my cars have flat lifters.

10-18-2011, 02:14 PM	#22
RenoKeene Florida Edition Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Fruitland Park, FL Posts: 4,028	Re: An expensive lesson learned Damn sure don't want to have to tear this down after 14,000 miles! Sorry for the highjack and sorry about your engine trouble but you may have just saved me from the same fate. Thanks. Attached Images __________________ 70 GMC Short Stepside "Rose"-An American Beauty: Factory 402/TH400, AM/FM, AC, Tilt, Tach, Buckets, Posi, PS, PB, 3-5 Drop, Complete Resto-Rod 67 C-20 Slant Back Wrecker "Mad Max" 67 C-10 Ratrod "Step-N-Wolf" 71 Serro Scotty Sportsman camper "Scotty" 97 LT1 Z28 "The Hornet" Link to more pics of "Rose" http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/a...p?albumid=1684 Check out my "Cheap Tricks" thread and add to it if you can, lots of good info there. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=489394



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10-18-2011, 02:42 PM	#23
leddzepp Moderator Join Date: May 2007 Location: Southern Cal Posts: 20,018	Re: An expensive lesson learned I use ZDDPlus additive. From what I have read, STP will also work. Some folks also use GM break-in lube because of the high zinc content. __________________ 1972 C/10 Cheyenne Super SWB. Restored, loaded, slammed. 1968 C/10 50th Anniversary LWB. Unrestored, stock, daily driver/work truck. RIP ElJay RIP 67ChevyRedneck RIP Grumpy Old Man RIP FleetsidePaul

10-18-2011, 02:46 PM	#24
OJ1988 Just a car guy Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New Washington, IN Posts: 991	Re: An expensive lesson learned And, it seems just about everyone is selling 'break in oil' with added zinc now as well. There are plenty of options out there, you just gotta look at the labels. __________________ 1955 belair Blown Pro Street cruiser 1971 Camaro Pro Touring 1973 Vega Drag Car 1970 C20 tow rig

10-18-2011, 04:20 PM	#25
pumpkin Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: East Sooke B.C. Canada Posts: 543	Re: An expensive lesson learned I've been saying this for years now, but no one realy listens. Additives don't work very well, as the modern oils drasticaly reduce there effectiveness. There are two ways around this problem that I have found. Use a racing/off road use ony oil such as Joe Gibbs racing oil, or go full roller on you engine. Full roller is my choice, as that is one of the main reason modern engines are able to rack up so manny miles without trouble. As a mechanic I regularly see engines with 200,000 plus on them, and still running fine.

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