Goodbye hei ignition system!!!!

[purebred]

After owning a few chevys in my life and growing up with the old point ignition system, I am returning to it. I have been left stranded for the last time. I havwe been stranded because of bad pickup coils, bad coils, bad control modules for the last time.I have been able to replace and old point set or condenser numerous times without having to tow or walk. I am going back to the good old point system on my 65 chevy for good, I know all of you out there think I am crazy but what the H---.

[jocko]

why not get the best of both worlds? Pertronix. Won't strand you, and you won't have to set the points every 3 days. (then again, I still have points on my 66 too, so I guess it's a case of do what I say, not what I do...) Guess I don't blame ya.

[64shortbox]

Nope, I don't think you're crazy at all. I've had the same problems with HEI's. I also even made the mistake of installing a Petronix system in my 71 Caddy. Guess what that failed too. Of course that had to fail at 3 AM on the way up to Hot August Nights. The next morning I replaced the Petronix with points, set the points to 30 Deg of dwell and they've stayed at 30 deg for 5 years now and No Problems what so ever. I too will keep my points, thank you very much!

[jocko]

64sb, what failed on the pertronix? That'd be good to know - I've never heard of one failing as commonly as HEIs do, but I could just be lucky. Thanks.

[gor in san diego]

I have an HEI distributor and wires from a later model Chevy and have considered installing it onto my 1964 283. But I have decided that I will stay with the points because it is stock, and I don't put that many miles on it any way. Set up with the right dwell and timing, he runs great. I had a '77 Cady that just quit one day. After putting in a new watchamacallitsolidstate circuit module into the distributor it ran. I would just as soon not deal with that again. PS when the next nuclear (nucular) apocalypse with the EMP wipes out all the solid state stuff, our old time trucks will keep on running.....just kidding about that....until next December.....heck just kidding again.

[tincan1966]

I use MSD ignition components and have no problems at all. Another thing I have learned is that my big block seems to really like the NGK V-Power sparks plugs, too. I do not care much for GM stock HEI either, but hate points more. Maybe it's because I don't have the "feel" for tuning a points ignition.

[64shortbox]

jocko,
What failed on my Petronix - Under the rotor where you mount that ring with the pin that passes in front of the pick up module? The ring under the rotor warpped (sagged) the pin then scraped the pick up module and destroyed it. It wasn't exactly a good way to start off my vacation attending Hot August Nights. I threw the Petronix junk as far as I could, put the points and condenser back in, set the points and have been happy ever since. That was 5 years ago.

[old cruiser]

REbuilt my 230 over 12 months ago stayed with the stock points not had a problem with them at all, if I wanted electonics and stuff I,d be driving some modern plastic piece of crap, you know the ones you lift the hood and look at a sheet of plastic covering some wires and apparently there's a motor in there somewhere as well ( the yellow dipstick handle gives it away).

[blackedoutharley]

One used HEI with Pertronix module and coil... 150K + miles and zero issues.

[purebred]

I had a 58 chevy with 283 out of high school not one problem ever with points, I sold it and bough a new SS 396 , drove it until I went into the Army, not one problem either. I tried to give the HEI chances but still prefer the old stanby, extra set of points and condenser in the glovebox.

[chevyrestoguy]

Originally Posted by blackedoutharley

One used HEI with Pertronix module and coil... 150K + miles and zero issues.

Same here. I like the HEI, you just need to upgrade the module and coil with quality parts. Settling the points on a 60-66 truck with a small block sucks. You have to climb completely into the engine compartment, lay over top of the engine, and have somebody else bump the starter until you get the points open. Too old for that crap.

I totally understand being frustrated, but with the right upgrades, the HEI is a nice piece. If it's any piece of mind, you can always carry another module and coil under the seat for an emergency backup.

[SCOTI]

I see where more than 1 has stated you can carry a spare set of points for an easy roadside repair & be on your way w/o issue should the need arise.

Why couldn't you can do the same w/HEI?

[HEI451]

First off, there have been factual, validated reports of PerTronix failures, far more than any HEI or other "drop-in" ignition systems, far too many to ever trust one of those things.

The main issue with the large coil in cap HEI's is, the coil itself. Those coils are epoxy filled, and we all KNOW epoxy does not transfer heat, it bars it. so, the part of the coil that produces heat, the windings, never really do cool properly, which is heat, causes increased resistance, and increases the amperage load on the module, usually to failure.

That heat also passes down through the coil tower and carbon brush to the module artea, causing under cap temps to go up considerably from a points system. Since heat is still resistance, parts fail from both that heat, and the resistance values changing as well.

As all know, I do conversions for a living, and mine all use an oil filled coil, remote from the distributor. There are many kits available to get the coil OUT of the cap for the large HEI's, and they should be used for EVERY large HEI, bar none.

There are massive heat issues for the large HEI's in motor homes, so much, that the motor home community have been going through living heck for years. There is a fellow here in one of those motor home clubs, and has taken what I say to heart, caused almost all of his fellow club members to convert their large HEI's to remote coil, and, the number of failures almost stopped. The failures they do have are on those distributors that have not been converted to remote round oil filled coil. One of those that has not converted over yet, steadfastly refuses to convert to the remote coil, from advice from one of the HEI companies, and every trip, he changes the module, as it fails, and causes his vehicle to rattle to a stop. He refuses to chang3e the coil in the cap as well, taking the advice from his expert, they saying the coil is not the cause.

A lesser issue is the pickup coil. For the most part, the actual coil does not fail, it is the factory crimp for the two terminals on the ends of the wires, at the module plug. The machine that crimps the wires to the terminal actually cuts a number of strands as it crimps the terminal. After a bit of time in use, the remaining strands break, and can either do an intermittent contact, or remain disconnected, causing engine stop issues.

For pickup coils for the large HEI, there are the coils themselves, and a full pickup available. If you have to replace the pickup coil opt for the full pickup, NOT the coil itself. The pickup is aligned so the teeth on it so not touch the teeth on the reluctor, and that takes a special tool. Changing just the coil requires that tool to align the teeth. The full pickup is factory aligned, and simply fits right back in.

The large cap HEI is a good unit for what it is, only takes a couple of things done differently to make them live long and prosper. What usually causes people to get fed up with them is, incorrect diagnosis procedures and information form others that really have no clue as to what is what with them. Done right, the dead stock GM large cap HEI is a good system, far, far better than any drop-in, and especially leaps and bonds better than any PerTronix unit has ever been, or ever will be.

This is simply an explanation, NO-ONE is forcing anyone to use what they do not want to use. If you prefer points, or a PerTronix, lease use them, that is purely your decision.

Now, before I get all sorts of "you don't know a thing about ignition systems" vitriol, please consider that I do my own design modified small-body HEI and MSD systems, for a living, have for over 25 years. I was also on the team at GM Development that devised the large cap HEI as well. That might be considered, before I get flamed by those that don't know the way ignition systems work, and....fail.

[chevy_mike]

HEI451 - curious in regards to the small body HEI you talk about. That sounds like the ticket for firewall clearance issues. Is there a website to check these out?

Oh, and I have to add to the list of failed Pertronix people.

[64shortbox]

HEI451,
Thanks for your iformation. This puts a whole new light on the HEI's for me. There's one on the self at work with a bad coil. I think I'll set that one up with a remote Oil Filled Coil like you suggested and drop it in my 64.
Thank You

[hd74]

HEI fan here,i lived thru points era.if your truck is a driver and put miles on your truck a good stock is the way too go. born in 1952 screw the points get a good stcock hei and never look back or under the cap again

[HEI451]

Mike, google "small body hei", should bring up a site for you to go visit.

64, I am in the process of doing pictures for a home made changeover for the coil in cap HEI's, to replace the coil on the top if the cap with a remote one. Just haven't had the time to get to it, and do the pictorial. I used a piece of clear plexiglass, a rubber tire valve, long machine screw, two flat washers and a removable top that comes on some motorcycle plugs that usually gets thrown away. It isn't hard to make your own, just takes things like a band saw, sander, drill press and drill bit set.

Give me a week or so, and then, e/mail me and ask for the pictorial. Use this e/mail address, please: info@davessmallbodyheis.com

[jocko]

Originally Posted by 64shortbox

jocko,
What failed on my Petronix - Under the rotor where you mount that ring with the pin that passes in front of the pick up module? The ring under the rotor warpped (sagged) the pin then scraped the pick up module and destroyed it. It wasn't exactly a good way to start off my vacation attending Hot August Nights. I threw the Petronix junk as far as I could, put the points and condenser back in, set the points and have been happy ever since. That was 5 years ago.

Thanks 64 shortbox, appreciate the specifics. Have pertronix'ed before and hadn't had any problems - btu I didn't run it for long and just hadn't heard of many failing. Maybe they just have good press agents! Have been back to points on my last 3 cars, and have had no problems. The last time I recall points being a major pain was when they were on my daily drive - all the points vehicles I've had recently were occasional drivers, so it didn't feel like I was setting/changing points very often. So, on an old points vehicle that doesn't accumulate a lot of miles, I will stick with my points - when/if I make a new (old ) daily driver, I'll probably go the electronic route. Thanks again.

[karlbenz]

I would never go back to points..........

[tomfg]

Just curious, what improvement in "miles per gallon"
would one obtain by switching to HEI from points?
At 11 mpg, it's the only reason why I'm interested.
Thanks.

[68 IRON]

I won't go back either. The way my straight out of the junkyard HEI livened up my straight 6...absolutely amazing. Maybe it gets more cooling up front than the V8's...its just plain great for 6's!

[purebred]

Great info people, I still plan on the old point replacement, to each their own, at 60 years old I still have the ability to climb in the engine compartment and adjust the points. Its not like you have to do it daily anyway, I always liked the peace and mind of being able to replave them myself. I could buy a extra HEI distributor and have ready for a swap but doing that at night or stranded on the side of a road just doesn't appeal to me anymore. Anyway enough said , to each their own. Thanks

[dugvera@gmail.com]

Originally Posted by purebred

Great info people, I still plan on the old point replacement, to each their own, at 60 years old I still have the ability to climb in the engine compartment and adjust the points. Its not like you have to do it daily anyway, I always liked the peace and mind of being able to replave them myself. I could buy a extra HEI distributor and have ready for a swap but doing that at night or stranded on the side of a road just doesn't appeal to me anymore. Anyway enough said , to each their own. Thanks

I have never had issues with any hei distributor I have owned personally but know a couple guys who have just had rotten luck with them. I also was used to doing points on a regular basis with my tune up so I always pull my hei's apart inspect and replace parts as needed. my old man always tought me about preventative maintenance as a way to keep my vehicles maintained. I do believe there are benefits to the hei that make it worth it. Faster start up, perhaps a better mpg. Better spark for sure. All that said, you couldn't have said it better. To each their own! If we all liked the same things all our trucks would be identical and we'd have no reason to be here to check out everyone elses ideas and opinions.
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[protrash64]

HEI451 didnt mention anything about it, but I have always heard that they will fail if not fed proper voltage, too. I set mine up on a relay being fed with a 12g wire and have had no issues whatsoever. I think either system works fine, but there was a definite change in the engine when I switched to the HEI in my 283. Like it!

[HEI451]

One "benefit" of better ignition, HEI or capacitor discharge, is the ability to open the spark plug gaps TO A REASONALBE GAP, which aids in leaning the mixture out, to a reasonable point.

That said, with any and all electronic ignition, SPARK PLUG GAP IS LIMITED TO NO MORE THAN .045 GAP, NO LARGER, PERIOD, END OF STORY.

Yes, voltage is critical for any ignition system, and the GM HEI likes the voltage to be between 12.80 and 14.60 volts. This is right on par for GM charging systems, generator, early remote regulator alternator, and internally regulated alternator systems. Too low a voltage for the HEI usually results in loss of spark energy and engine stop. Too high a voltage, well past 15.80 volts, can cause heat buildup more than usual in the coil in the cap, and that leads to layer shorting in the coil, and coil/module failure.

One issue that is extremely important, grounding between the engine, chassis and battery. The BATTERY MUST be grounded to the ENGINE directly, via large gauge stranded battery cable, then, from the engine, or battery, to the chassis. Optimally, the ground to the chassis should be at least one stranded large battery gauge cable. Additional ground straps don't hurt at all.