I need a little education on Numbers Matching

[72C20Highlander]

Any help on What Numbers Matching is all about? When they say #'s matching what am I looking for, other locations of vin# or vin# on Engine, Tranny, Frame. Or am I looking for something else?

Thanks.

[SS Tim]

When it comes to these trucks "numbers matching" is a BS sellers line. There are few numbers to "match" and many that will be simply correct within a range at best. Every seller I have asked to define exactly what numbers they claim have "matched" has declined usually with "we checked" if that. It is a buzz word that has value attached to it, sometimes.

On our trucks the frame partial VIN, SPID, door post plate and blue certification sticker will match.
The engine assembly code must match the trucks configuration and production time frame but it is not serialized.
The broadcast sheet (build sheet) will have a scheduled assembly date that the engine must precede. The protect-o-plate codes are a helpful cross check too. The only other build date clue is the blue door sticker on later trucks. However being a MM/YY format it is vague.
The engines were assembled and application suffix stamped at the engine plant. The stamped date is "the" engine assembly date (actual) all major components must have preceding date codes.

Pretty sure damn few sellers are going to pull valve covers much less a big block intake to verify date codes!

The engine was the shipped to the assembly plant. Across the yard or across the country they were shipped.
At the assembly plant they were final dressed for their specific application per the broadcast sheet callouts. Alternator (different sizes even types), P/S pump, A/C compressor and intake vacuum nipple are all items that come to mind. Dress added items "might" very closely trail the build date in rare cases to distant plants. Note four days from Flint engine assembly to Fremont scheduled build is known.

The automatic transmission will have application and build date code but again not a vehicle specific or VIN number. The application code will also be found on the broadcast sheet.

Manuals I can't help much on dating and such but they were not VIN coded either.

The rear axle assembly code will precede the built date and the ratio code stamp needs to match the build.

Most other components have build dates or ranges (like quarterly) Glass, seat belts, interior trim, wheels, bed wood, and spark plug wires all fall in this category.

Basically any vendor parts will have a traceable date or feature to allow select replacement as low as dealer level.

Some major components like a radio are coded for year, installation and revision level allowing some determination of correctness as well.

Enough for a Sunday afternoon?

[72C20Highlander]

SS Tim, Thank you, very help full information. Yes a lot to run down and look for on truck, I do have Build sheet and protect-to-plate so I will have all the reference I need.

[turp mcspray]

Anything with a high-performance engine, was built in limited numbers. An example would be a 67 z/28. 602 were built. That made them rare when new. Most were used as intended (raced) and had the engine blown up, parts changed, and so on. So the ones that remain WITH the original "numbers matching" engine/trans etc., are even more rare, and valuable. So when one comes up for sale as having matching numbers, someone paying top dollar, will want some proof and or documentation, that it is what the seller claims, before paying lots of money. This has made a lot of people believe that their 72 chevy truck, is worth more money because it has the "numbers matching" 350 in it, with date coded plug wires, even though gm made 6.2 million of them with the same 350 engine. Don't get too caught up in the numbers hype, when it comes to common vehicles. LOL!

[GASoline71]

Originally Posted by SS Tim

When it comes to these trucks "numbers matching" is a BS sellers line.

I LOL'd when I read that. Couldn't agree more. The "Numbers Matching" craze has been hitting hard these days on any vehicle ever built. If you come across a 1970 LS6 Chevelle SS... then yes... "Numbers Matching" is a big deal.

Good write up Tim. Explained it very well.

Gary

[Lee H]

SS Tim, In the truck world, did they stamp the vin on the block like they did on the cars? Coming from the midyear corvette world, that is key in determining matching numbers, along with date codes as you have stated.
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[Spartan]

Iirc corvettes were the first "numbers matching" automobiles. I could be wrong on this but I also recall "they" started keeping track in 1969 model year.

These trucks were considered an order of magnitude less important in the auto world at the time. Like Tim said (in a very nicely put explanation) the idea isn't so much numbers matching but what is correct for your year/model.

In the end they are just wonderful trucks. Some of them are rare model wise but also like mentioned above - millions made.
Cheers!
Nim
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[leddzepp]

There is no vin on the block. Unless you have the build sheet or protecto plate there is no way to verify the engine is original to the truck.
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[Lee H]

Originally Posted by Spartan

Iirc corvettes were the first "numbers matching" automobiles. I could be wrong on this but I also recall "they" started keeping track in 1969 model year.
Cheers!
Nim
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It started earlier than that, my 65 with the original 365 HP 327 has the vin stamped on the block.
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[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Lee H

It started earlier than that, my 65 with the original 365 HP 327 has the vin stamped on the block.
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I figured I was amiss. So many interesting facts, so little grey matter.
Trucks were for hauling, vettes for style and speed - fun to be had with both. Still different investment grades but who knows what the next 20 years will hold. There's many getting parted junked or bought and held.
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[special-K]

Originally Posted by GASoline71

I LOL'd when I read that. Couldn't agree more. The "Numbers Matching" craze has been hitting hard these days on any vehicle ever built. If you come across a 1970 LS6 Chevelle SS... then yes... "Numbers Matching" is a big deal.

Good write up Tim. Explained it very well.

Gary

It's not that it wouldn't be a big deal to have a numbers matching truck. There are serious truck collectors who don't give a damn about an Chevelle SS and there were trucks built with rare combinations that make them more valuable just like cars. It's a joke because...

Originally Posted by Lee H

SS Tim, In the truck world, did they stamp the vin on the block like they did on the cars?
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...No. Only an engine code which only tells you it's the right motor for that configuration for that year.

[SS Tim]

Originally Posted by Lee H

SS Tim, In the truck world, did they stamp the vin on the block like they did on the cars? Coming from the midyear corvette world, that is key in determining matching numbers, along with date codes as you have stated.

The VIN stamping of the block and trans. started later on trucks and I want to say it was 74 but I need to check.

Originally Posted by leddzepp

There is no vin on the block. Unless you have the build sheet or protecto plate there is no way to verify the engine is original to the truck.

Even that is not an an exact match. Again the block has an assembly date that precedes the vehicle scheduled assembly.
While having a block date that looks correct it may very well in fact have come off the assembly line on a different shift/day or from a different plant and still be "correctly dated". This is to me why a "known" truck is more valuable. You know the parts are basically "as assembled". As value curves go up you will see this happening on select trucks to push them into the "correct numbers" game intending to establish an originality that is not really there. But I would see this happening only in very select cases as so many trucks simply didn't have a build sheet and a POP can be bought.

Granted even true "one owner" trucks will have replacement parts. During its normal use and value cycle it would be a very frugal and capable owner that would have rebuilt the original water pump, starter, or alternator. Other parts are pretty much a given as being replacements like batteries, fuel pumps, points, condensers, spark plugs and wires, light bulbs and tires.
But the "one owner" may give you that rare unmolested core survivor vehicle to base an authentic truck up.

Unfortunately as the original owners pass most all of our trucks are well into their second if not fifteenth owner. Originality gets further away every day.

For those who like a good car story please pick up a copy of Terry Berkson's "Corvette Oddessy". While just about everyone has a copy for sale you can get a copy signed/inscribed by Terry from his web site.
www.terryberkson.com

[GASoline71]

Originally Posted by special-K

It's not that it wouldn't be a big deal to have a numbers matching truck. There are serious truck collectors who don't give a damn about an Chevelle SS and there were trucks built with rare combinations that make them more valuable just like cars.

I'm not disputing that there are some rare trucks out there... but of the 19 gazillion that were built there aren't any rare engine combos. Okay... maybe rare styling combos... and quite possibly if that same rare styling combo had a BBC in it I could see it...

But "numbers matching" is a 60's and 70's performace car thing if ya ask me.

Gary

[leddzepp]

Originally Posted by SS Tim

The VIN stamping of the block and trans. started later on trucks and I want to say it was 74 but I need to check.



Even that is not an an exact match. Again the block has an assembly date that preceeds the vehicle scheduled assembly.
While having a block date that looks correct it may very well in fact have come off the assembly line on a different shift/day or from a different plant and still be "correctly dated". This is to me why a "known" truck is more valuable. You know the parts are basically "as assembled". As value curves go up you will see this happening on select trucks to push them into the "correct numbers" game intending to establish an originality that is not really there. But I would see this happening only in very select cases as so many trucks simply didn't have a buildsheet and a POP can be bought.

Granted even true "one owner" trucks will have replacement parts. During its nomal use and value cycle it would be a very frugal and capable owner that would have rebuit the original water pump, starter, or alternator. Other parts are pretty much a given as being replacements like batteries, fuel pumps, points, condensors, spark plugs and wires, light bulbs and tires.
But the "one owner" may give you that rare unmolested core survivor vehicle to base an authentic truck up.

Unfortunately as the original owners pass most all of our trucks are well into their second if not fifteenth owner. Originality gets further away every day.

For those who like a good car story please pick up a copy of Terry Berkson's "Corvette Oddessy". While just about everyone has a copy for sale you can get a copy signed/inscribed by Terry from his web site.
www.terryberkson.com

Unless you were there the day it was built and filmed it, I guess there really is no proof of anything.

Other than that, if numbers matching ever means anything with these trucks, the POP and build sheet would be the accepted documents as proof of that, right?
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[SS Tim]

Originally Posted by leddzepp

Unless you were there the day it was built and filmed it, I guess there really is no proof of anything.

Other than that, if numbers matching ever means anything with these trucks, the POP and build sheet would be the accepted documents as proof of that, right?

Too true. If originality is important to you then find the most original and well documented truck you can and work from there. Davepl managed to find the first owner's family and has obtained period pictures. We should all be so lucky.

[leddzepp]

I was not only lucky enough to get all documents when I bought the truck from the second owner...the original owners name on most documents was "unique" and stuck with me. I was fortunate enough to recall it when I crossed paths with him a while back. He remembered the truck of course, and got a kick out of finding out where it ended up after all these years.
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[72C20Highlander]

Wow!!!! You all really answered my questions and educated the Heck out of me. SS Tim's long paragraph will be my guide. As I mentioned I have the build sheet and POP as well a good number of service receipts with orig. owners name, date of service and mileage at time of service (starting @10,500 miles).

I am the 3rd owner, second owner only held truck for about a month when cash flow required its sale. My dilemma is that he had told orig. owner (older friend of his) he would keep truck, at a week out after I bought truck he had not told orig. owner that he had sold me the truck. He was afraid it might break his heart. I can understand that but I believe this truck deserves me gathering as much history as I can. I have asked seller to get any additional provenance he can, Pictures, copy of bill of sale from original owner (told him I don't care about price, just chain of ownership) and any story's of truck OR might share. Well I get zero response. I would like to contact OR but don't want to upset him. On one hand I think OR would be happy to know truck is with someone now that is passionate about preserving it and its history. I just don't want to upset him he is an older gentleman in his 80's.

What would you all do?
Thanks

[Ol Blue K20]

I would call him and explain gently, it may make him happy but if he's in his eighties you need to get what info you can before it's too late