Frame help!

[bbcmudtruck]

I've been working on my 69 sb for a few weeks now and discovered that my frame has been shortened... They person who did it, did a very nice job on the cut and weld as well as the diamond shaped reinforcement plate. However this has me questioning whether or not my frame is a 67-72 or a later model such as a 73-87. I have searched the frame everywhere for vin numbers, but I cannot come up with anything solid. The number right in front of the power steering pump is only partial and the number on the outside of the frame under the driver door doesn't seem to match up to anything that I can find. Is there any physical differences that are easy to spot to tell me what year of frame I have? I need to replace the lowering kit as the springs in the front have just been heated up to my knowledge. Also, the rear has leaf springs and has had the leafs relocated under the axle. I need a c-notch kit to clear the axle as it travels and there are two options- 67-72 and 73-87 Any and all help is appreciated!
Thanks!!

[67c10rustbuket]

The later 73+ frame ramps up under the cab where a 67-72 frame is flat under the length of the cab and ramps up after the back of the cab. putting a 67-72 cab on a 73+ frame would need some serious floor modification or a body lift and other headaches. Probably just a period correct shortened frame. If you could post the partial frame vin and or pics we would be glad to help you identify your frame.

[bbcmudtruck]

Hey thanks man. What exactly do you need pictures of? Any specific areas? This truck has been highly modified from original. Not nessesarily in a good or bad way, just saying that the fenders, inner fenders, hood, etc have been replaced. That and along with a lowering kit and a braking system from a 73+ truck. It also has discs up front with drums in the rear. So with that said, anything in particular you want a picture of? Thanks again!

[67c10rustbuket]

Well for starters lets check that partial frame vin. it should be near the steering gear and also under the cab (on top of frame rail) but a shortened frame may have removed it from under the cab.
Frame vin format:
(year)(assembly plant)(6 digit assembly)
7A123456 = 1967, Atlanta, 123456 assembly sequence and last 6 digits of vin
8S123456 = 1968, Saint Louis, ""
9Z123456 = 1969, Freemont, ""
etc... if the last 6 digits match your vin that it is original to the truck.

Now for the suspension, leafs were available on these trucks but are yours original? hangars riveted to the frame? I had a 69 that a PO welded on 73+ leafs for some reason .... pics of these and any rear frame cross members, shocks, shock mounts. On the front where do the rubber brake lines connect to the steel lines on the crossmember? What kind of control arm bushings are on the truck? steel bushed or rubber? Are the upper ball joints still original (riveted in or bolted in) How are the brake lines and hoses routed? (in front of control arms or behind) Any pics of these items would be helpful.

[bbcmudtruck]

Ok thanks for your help! My leafs are factory riveted. I will get you some pictures today (sorry, my first day off since asking for help). I have also noticed that the brake system seems to be a factory 73 and newer booster, master as well as lines. Its a disc front, drum rear. I will get you some pics later this afternoon. Thanks for your help thus far!

[bbcmudtruck]

I was able to get you some photos of the arms and frame numbers. After looking at the frame closer, the frame is flat underneath the cab. I believe it is a period correct frame that has been shortened. Here are some pics of the front end to help as well as the frame numbers. The numbers on the frame are under the driver door on the outside of the frame rail. If you guys need more pictures of something different or some other areas, just let me know. Thanks a bunch for helping out! Its time to order up some front end suspension parts and I need to know what I am supposed to be ordering!!

[bbcmudtruck]

[67c10rustbuket]

That's a 73+ crossmember/suspension. Note you have rubber control arm bushings and they didn't bother drilling the hole that does not line up. There were two different front brakes, either 1.25" rotors or 1.00" rotors, same bolt pattern etc. from 71-79 were the 1.25 only then in 80? The standard brakes became the smaller 1.00 and the old standard equipment 1.25 is commonly referred to as HD or heavy duty brakes. Measure how thick your rotors are and then you will know which parts to buy.

The frame number you gave is on the side, we need the numbers on the top. Near impossible to see with the cab on in that location. Look here (pic) the first number is the year, mine is 7 (67). Also you can see my upper control arm shaft bushing. These are original style solid steel threaded bushed ends. It rotates on threads. See how big that nut is with the the grease zerk on the end? That is what they should look like. No problem running the newer stuff lots of people prefer it.

[bbcmudtruck]

Ok, so if I understand you correctly, the cross member and arms are from 73+, but the frame could still be period correct? I will measure the rotors to tell you how thick they are. So if I am going to order arms and drop spindles, they would need to be for 73+ model correct? Would the cross member be riveted to the frame or bolted in from the factory? Also, I found a real 71 short bed frame not to far from me on craigslist with front disk brakes for $600 bucks. Would it be worth it to just switch my cab over to a real short bed frame? I also just found a short box for 1100 bucks with very minimal rust. So I am going to be taking the bed off anyway. Switching cabs wouldn't be much more work since I'm pulling the motor and trans to put a 496/400 combo in. Thoughts?

[bbcmudtruck]

Also, it has what looks to be factory 73+ brake system. The lines are all factory bent and routed just like the newer models. I will get you some pics of that as well. Thanks for your help!

[67c10rustbuket]

Answers (and opinions) in GREEN

Originally Posted by bbcmudtruck

Ok, so if I understand you correctly, the cross member and arms are from 73+, but the frame could still be period correct?

correct

I will measure the rotors to tell you how thick they are. So if I am going to order arms and drop spindles, they would need to be for 73+ model correct?

71-79 or 80-87 "HD"for 1.25" brakes same thing, if you have 1.00 rotors there are some other specific parts, wheel bearing, calipers etc. I dont think OE style arms are made for 67-72 but the 73+ are made. If you are going to add drop spindles it would be cheapest to go with the year model of suspension you have due to ball joint and tie rod differences. You dont want to be one of those guys posting a WTB ad for a year appropriate center link because you didn't know any better when you bought drop spindles. (like me)

Would the cross member be riveted to the frame or bolted in from the factory?

bolted in with 7 bolts per side or probably 6 per side in your case. 3 in the bottom flange, 4 in the side 2 that are visible (one missing in your pic) and 2 under the upper control arm shaft

Also, I found a real 71 short bed frame not to far from me on craigslist with front disk brakes for $600 bucks. Would it be worth it to just switch my cab over to a real short bed frame? I also just found a short box for 1100 bucks with very minimal rust. So I am going to be taking the bed off anyway. Switching cabs wouldn't be much more work since I'm pulling the motor and trans to put a 496/400 combo in. Thoughts?

It maybe depending on how far you want to go with it. When considering resale and piece of mind I would go for an original short wheel base frame. But if the shortening job looks up to par "don't fix what isn't broken"

Nice truck by the way!

[67c10rustbuket]

Originally Posted by bbcmudtruck

Also, it has what looks to be factory 73+ brake system. The lines are all factory bent and routed just like the newer models. I will get you some pics of that as well. Thanks for your help!

I noticed that, they used the bulkhead brake line through the frame. I like the newer brake line routing. If your crossmember were original (69) it would have a tab to the rear side with a hex/star hole is where the drum brake line attached. If it were a 71-72 crossmember there would be a tab on the front side of the crossmember for the brake hose to attach to.

No problem, this is why we are here right? to help eachother, and learn from others mistakes

[bbcmudtruck]

Ok so recap, I want to lower my front end correctly. If I were to keep this frame, I need to buy arms (just because I'd like to try some), drop spindles and lowering springs for the year that the cross member is? I'm certain that the frame is period correct because it does not rise up under the cab. The cab seems to fit on the chassis exactly like it should. Now my next question! I finally found an oem bed that is in great shape and worth he money. Are the bed mounts going to be in the correct place to bolt the new bed on? Or will I have to buy new bed mounts and weld them up in the correct place? I'm probably sure your going to need pics with the current bed off, just curious if I might get lucky!

I'm really leaning towards buying the 71 rolling chassis that I found and starting a frame up rebuild. Basically I don't want to put a very expensive drive train in a chassis that in the long run will be more trouble than its worth! Thoughts?

[67c10rustbuket]

You don't have to get control arms to match the year of the crossmember. You can interchange the control arms and cross members within any year '63? to '87. So maybe 85 arms in a 64, 67 arms on a 72 etc. They just have different bushings and ball joints. The place you run into trouble is mating to the center link because the tie rods are different. tie rods are grouped as; 60 or 63?? to 70, 71-72, 73-87. You can connect a 71-72 to a 73-87 with a stock adjusting sleeve but if you use a 73+ spindle with a 70 or older inner tie rod/center link you will need a custom billet tie rod adjusting sleeve and use an outer (early year) tie rod in the inner location because they also changed thread direction LH/RH. Seems like they changed certain things in order to keep people from mixing parts up? Some people call the 73+ stuff an upgrade because of the larger tie rods and ball joint but the older stuff held up just fine for so long. I guess it really comes down to your choice. Personally I would keep it simple and not mix and match but I learned too late (I bought spindles long before I started working on my truck).

There is a very informative FAQ by lolife that lists the required parts for every scenario in the suspension section at the top of the page.

[bbcmudtruck]

Right on, thanks for all the help man! Cant tell you how much I appreciate your help. So if I bought some 73+ arms and spindles, I wouldnt have any other steering issues to deal with. Plus my current disc setup should bolt right up as well.

[67c10rustbuket]

Originally Posted by bbcmudtruck

Right on, thanks for all the help man! Cant tell you how much I appreciate your help. So if I bought some 73+ arms and spindles, I wouldnt have any other steering issues to deal with. Plus my current disc setup should bolt right up as well.

Judging by the pics, Yes that should be true.

[bbcmudtruck]

Thanks again for your help. I am going to go look at a 71 short bed frame with a title this weekend. Hes asking 500 bucks. If it looks good, I may just bring it home and start a frame up build. If its beyond repair, I'll just go ahead with the advice you gave me. Lolife helped out as well. A big thanks to both of you.

[Tx Firefighter]

You've got 73-87 front suspension and brakes on an earlier frame. Very common and Rustbucket has the wisdom in his information.

Now, my question is, why have you mentioned multiple times buying new arms ? You have arms already. If you want to lower the truck, get drop spindles and/or drop springs. No sense in messing with new arms. Just program yourself that any front suspension or brake part you buy shall be for 73-87 fitment. And, again like Rustbucket covered, 73-87 had two different thickness brake rotors. Measure yours and buy spindles for whicher application you have. When you go to Summit or wherever and catalog your new drop spindles, just use the model year 83 or so and select your spindles. There will be a notation in the part description for "1 inch brakes" or "1.25 inch brakes". Choose the one you need.

[Tx Firefighter]

On second review, don't buy spindles yet.

Take us a picture of your spindles from the back side as well as you can. Those pictures above don't show it well, but I'm seeing a possibility that they're already drop spindles. I need to see the shape of the steering arm on the spindle to tell you for sure.

Don't discount what parts you already have either. Someone spent a fat stack of money on those Belltech drop shocks. I also see new brake hoses too. But, your coil springs have been heated for sure. You're gonna want new ones of those.

But, pictures of spindles before you spend any money......

[bbcmudtruck]

Hey thanks for the heads up Tex! I read through Rustbuckets build thread and personally certified him as trustworthy and knowledgeable! hahaha. I will get you some pics of the spindles as soon as I can. I have to leave town for the weekend, but should be able to get you some pics on Monday or so. I've mentioned buying new arms just because I thought it would be a nice upgrade in handling. Plus I need to rebuild the arms that are currently on it. I figured the cost difference would be around 500 to upgrade the arms. I could be way off though, as this is my first 2wd sport truck! Thanks for the input and help, I can use as much as you guys are willing to give!

[Tx Firefighter]

If you're buying arms as an upgrade, I understand. Those guy like Porterbuilt sell some good stuff. But, CPP and a lot of second tier places sell offshore stuff. I always look at it like this, the original arms are made in USA and very good quality. A rebuild with made in USA ball joints and bushings is about the best quality possible. There was a spell on here recently where guys were pushing buying those complete stock replacement type of A arms that the parts houses sell, Dorman brand or whatever. I'm out. Way out. When they are selling a brand new control arm with ball joint, bushings, and shaft installed for the same price as just Moog ball joints and bushings alone, I know there's some corners getting cut on quality. Moog ought to hire me as their head cheerleader. That stuff is stamped Made in USA right on it and when you compare them side by side, the difference in quality is plain to see. Often they are twice as substantial than cheap parts store stuff.

And, there will be someone come in here shortly to say that Moog is offshore stuff and that made in USA means the box was made in USA not the part. I've rebuilt three suspensions this year alone on my own personal stuff and have seen with my own eyes that the parts are stamped on their bodies.

[bbcmudtruck]

Well upon further investigation, the previous owner has indeed replaced some of the steering ball joints. If the arms on the truck now are good enough for a hot rod, then I suppose I'll save a little money and redo the arms. I need to pull them off and paint them anyways. Where do you guys get all of your moog parts from? Thank you for the help!

[Tx Firefighter]

Rockauto is where I get my stuff.

[bbcmudtruck]

I will get you some pictures of the spindles today. I had to leave town for the weekend, sorry for the delay! I have another question though. If I want to replace the shocks, what year of shocks should I buy? Also, Should I go with the 3" drop spindles and 2" coils? (if I have to replace the spindles). Or should I go with 2.5 on both springs and spindles? Whats the best shock for my application? Cost vs performance? I've been told to use the belltech spindles, however they are only listed as 3" for the 73 and up arms.

[Tx Firefighter]

Don't go spending any money till we ID whether the spindles are stock or dropped.

You got a damn good set of shocks there already. No sense in even going down that road.