SPID match- How do I determine what is original?

[Duluth67]

I have a 1967 K20 with an interesting glove box sticker that matches the chrome tag on the door post. What is confusing to me is that certain things seem to match, but others don't. How can I get to the bottom of this?

What I know:
Small rear window
amp/ oil pressure equipped
No PS No side molding (anymore?);steel box; front stabilizer
283 V8; 4 speed SM420; Rockwell T221 T-case;
Eaton 4:55 rear; Dana closed knuckle front;

Repainted blue; light aqua blue is original in the engine bay? Drivers door appears to have been red at one point; blue seat, blue steering wheel.

Do you think these stickers are original to the truck? Thanks!

[68350]

Well for sure the glovebox doesn't match cab because it calls out for large rear window. Someone may have switched Vin tag and glovebox door onto a small window cab. Rosette rivets used to be available for purchase

[71swb4x4]

Your paint code is 514, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th digits are all that matters. 514 is red. I think your SPID and VIN tag are original. A lot can happen to a truck in 48 years. It certainly appears someone "restored" yours are one point.

I missed the big window/small window thing. But again, a lot can happen in 48 years. It's possible the cab was damaged long ago and it was replaced. It's also possible the restorer got a different 67 cab and put it on and bought rosette rivets to replace the VIN tag.

[Duluth67]

Yeah, its says "panoramic cab eq". Would that mean it used to have a big window?

Also with "red cloth trim" would the interior paint have been red?

Has anyone seen "POSITRAC axle 3.73" on a 67 4x4 before? Would this be an Eaton axle?

[too much stuff]

Yes, panoramic cab is the big back window in 67.
Are you in duluth MN?

[Duluth67]

Yep, Minnesota.

Do you know if the frame/ engine block can be traced to the vin?

[jocko]

Frame should have a VIN on the front left top of the frame rail - you should be able to see it in the eng compartment. You can't trace the eng block to the VIN for these trucks though. You CAN see if the numbers make sense for production timing, etc, but not an actual VIN match like you could on some cars.

It is an interesting situation. The VIN plate clearly matches the glove box, but the SPID doesn't match the cab (big window on SPID on a small window truck). Although, got admit, I've never seen the "eq" nomenclature in the pano cab RPO - if it follows convention with other stuff, it would mean "equipped" or "equipment" I believe. Anyhoo! As mentioned above, either the cab was replaced and the shop was able to get the correct rosette rivets and remount the VIN plate to the new cab, or the gb door and VIN plate were swapped over to an entirely different truck for some reason.

I'd check the frame VIN and see what you come up with. If it's a match, I'm guessing the cab was replaced and the VIN plate and gb door were moved over. If it doesn't match, well, who knows then...

Nice truck! I say return it to red and add that trim back on. Any 67 K20 is pretty darn nice - and red on red is nicer yet.

I suppose you COULD check for bodywork around the window, perhaps the simplest solution is that someone swapped in a small window!

[Duluth67]

The frame matches the glove box and door tag. No sign of red paint on the cab, box, or fenders, but maybe on the doors.

Do you think this 283 c.u. block is original to the frame?

Here is what I'm thinking now:

Original parts are: engine?, trans, transfer case and frame.

Cab, fenders, interior, and axles were swapped onto the current frame and the glovebox door and door tag were attached to the "new" "aqua blue" small window '67 cab. The truck was then painted med. blue all around.

The most disappointing thing to me is the fact that I don't have 3.73 POSI gears anymore, that would make the truck a lot more worthy of 55 mph+ travel. Red on red, panoramic cab with side trim would also be pretty cool.

Thanks for the replies!

[jocko]

I'd look at it this way, it got in a wreck one day and you're one of the luckiest guys on the planet to have had a body shop that could/would swap over the VIN tag WITH the correct rivets. Makes for an interesting story. Seems you have an original, all matching truck (no way to know for certain on the engine) that just happens to have had the cab legally, legitimately swapped. It's a cool truck! The casting code you posted falls in the 67-68 range, so it certainly could be correct. More info would help - stamped code on block (just below front passenger side head mating surface) and 1-3 digit code on the rear of the block somewhere would also help.

[71swb4x4]

It's MN, maybe the cab was all rusted out in the 80's and someone restored it back then. Or maybe the factory put the wrong cab on it. I highly doubt that, but as you start stripping it down maybe you will find some red paint in places that surprise you. Regardless you have a nice truck, nothing to be overly concerned about.

[Duluth67]

What do you think?

The guy that rebuilt the engine didn't thank the heads would have been on a 2 barrel 283 originally.
Thanks.

[jocko]

Flint mfg'd eng on May 12th. GF=65 195 hp/2bbl 283 w/pglide in a full size car. Other GF possibilities are 55 and 57 283s, which I'm guessing it's not, but who knows. When cross-ref'ed with the block code, things seem a bit outta place, i.e. 67-68 casting code and a 65 eng suffix code. But it all kinda ran together back then. It is possible the block sat on the shelf for a few years before it got installed... But that still doesn't explain the differences in the codes. But, the codes are on the same block, so it is how mama gm made it, so it has to be right! Any more letters on the block in the read (i.e. not on the surface hidden by the bell hsg)?

[Duluth67]

Wow weird. What do you think about this 2 barrel? Photo from the block is right near the oil filter.

[SS Tim]

Did anyone actually look at the SPID?
The only part that matches the frame and the VIN plate is the VIN number.

The model number and some of the options are for a CE109 4x2.
C/10 had 3.73 gears stock so a posi in tha ratio would be correct for a C/10.

The F59 stablizer bar was not offered on 67 4x4 trucks! Very much a 4x2 only option.

The stock gears on a 67-68 K20 were 4.55/4.57!

A 67 K10-20 283 would be coded WB (with AIR) or WI.

On the 3849852 block casting I am showing usage from 57-66 as a 283 2bbl.
GF suffix is showing 65,66 or 67 Impala/PG application. Is there a casting date on the block?

Why the SPID looks like it does is open to speculation but with the photo provided this is about as good as I can do.
However I will note the VIN font is notably heavier than the two 67 Janesville I have on file.

[Duluth67]

I don't know where the date code is on the block. It seems like it's not a match to my frame.

Are you suggesting that perhaps the VIN was transferred to the glove box with darker, bold, characters. I guess there is no way to know if the VIN on the frame and door post were a match to my cab (assuming one could source the rivets).

I'm guessing the cab is original judging by the intact rosette rivets, the condition of the cab mounting hardware, and the less-than-perfect condition of the cab. I don't see anyone taking the time to swap a cab that isn't ~100% rust free.

Thanks

[67ChevyRedneck]

The cab will be easy to tell if it's been swapped or not. GM painted the cabs then installed the VIN plates (they didn't spend the time/money to tape them off) so the original color would be behind the plate. That blue doesn't appear to be a factory color, if you see that blue behind the VIN, it was at a minimum, removed for paint, or possibly a cab swap.

It's very common for people to take rusted out 4x4's, buy a really nice (and cheap! long bed C10/C20) and do a body swap. If you've ever looked at the production numbers, 4x4's are actually "rare", even long beds.

Like Tim pointed out, the model number should match the VIN. CE is a 2wd truck. The VIN font is even different. Look at all of the other "4s" on the SPID then look at the "4" in the VIN. Someone made the glove box match the VIN and frame. After more looking, the 3's and 7's are clearly different as well.

[Duluth67]

I am confident that the cab was painted and was originally aqua blue.

The question remains, Did this blue cab come on this frame? And, what were the original characteristics/options when this frame was new? If someone can swap the door-frame plate, I don't see a way to answer this question.

Is additional information stamped on the metal somewhere?

[67ChevyRedneck]

Nope, the cabs are somewhat "untraceable" if someone tosses the glovebox and swaps the VIN. There is no "hidden 2nd VIN" like on other classic cars. There's the govebox SPID, the VIN on the door frame, and the frame, that's it.

But if you peel the VIN tag back do you see "old paint" (meaning it was never removed then) or is there the new "fresh paint" color behind it?

I don't get the glove box. If you have the VIN tag that matches the frame, that means you had the right cab at one time (which could be the one on the truck now)... why toss the original glovebox and fake the VIN on the "new" one?

[SS Tim]

Originally Posted by Duluth67

I don't know where the date code is on the block. It seems like it's not a match to my frame.

Are you suggesting that perhaps the VIN was transferred to the glove box with darker, bold, characters. I guess there is no way to know if the VIN on the frame and door post were a match to my cab (assuming one could source the rivets).

I'm guessing the cab is original judging by the intact rosette rivets, the condition of the cab mounting hardware, and the less-than-perfect condition of the cab. I don't see anyone taking the time to swap a cab that isn't ~100% rust free.

Thanks

The casting date on the block will be up in back on the bell housing flange just like the casting number was on the other side. It should be a single letter and two or three digits along with a pair of phantom screw heads in the casting. Read in the M/DD/Y format, probably something along the lines of D 26 5. No I'd agree at this point it probably isn't an original engine/motor/block.

Again from the pictures there is little more I can tell you about the SPID unfortunately your new picture isn't giving up anything new to me. If anything it looks like a possible factory error. The VIN at some plants was crash printed heavier and in a different font/size. This included Janesville in 67.

Here is a SPID composite I did matching your newest picture with a pair of control SPIDs. The more I look at this the more it looks like the wrong model description and RPO list was attached to your VIN.

Unfortunately that leaves you with options that cannot be documented.

Fortunately the number and the VIN plate match identifying it as a KE20 if you have a factory 4x4 frame then I'd call that good. As to it being a fleetside or a stepside or even a chassis cab thats open and indeterminate. A check of the floor should show a factory removable trans tunnel with weld nuts on the cab floor. While not proof positive it would indicate a factory 4x4 or 4-speed cab.

On the VIN plate I would not disturb it at all nor the rivets in any way. The pictures of the VIN plate, to me, suggest the rivets are original and the paint ridge/masking indicates a repaint if not a color change as well. Generally down behind the tank in the corners will often show an original color. Peeling any part of the SPID isn't recommended nor even necessary. The missing fragments show underlying color and it is the expected fawn color all the 67 gloveboxes were inside.

Hope this helps and if some point clarification is need please ask.

[Duluth67]

It doesn't look redone. Idk.

[SS Tim]

Agree thanks for the much better picture, I know that can take a lot of effort. Wish I had a magic bullet answer for you. But at this point a factory error seems the only way to accout for the difference between the VIN and the model/RPO list on the SPID.

[71swb4x4]

The font in the VIN of the SPID is different. The 4, 2 and 7 all have pretty big differences.

[SS Tim]

As compared to the SPID font in general the crash printed VINs alone tend to be bigger, heavier and a different font.

[Duluth67]

I agree Tim, from a visual comparison, it looks like the numbers are a match to your SPID in all cases. I'm thinking it is original- very weird though. With these inconsistencies, who knows if that block is original...I probably never will.

Thanks for all the help.

Paul

[SS Tim]

Originally Posted by Duluth67

...With these inconsistencies, who knows if that block is original...I probably never will. Thanks for all the help. Paul

IMHO there is zero chance that block is original to that truck or VIN. Still like to see the block casting date though to nail the actual year of the block.