IFS Install This Weekend - Need Advice

[Dan in Pasadena]

Ok, running parallel threads now because I'm trying to keep all my history in one place. I guess I'll post today's progress and then let this die. I'll also try to answer some comments made above. Here's today:

The rear suspension came out pretty easily. My shackle pins screwed out by hand as the front had. I had NO idea how to remove the front of the rear leafs. The cast iron shackle "body" was totally-covered-with-rock-hard-grease. But digging around it with a putty knife I found what turned out to be retainer pin bolts. Removing the emergency brake cable was a pain but other than that we just wheeled the rear ended out as you see it.l

Tomorrow but my brother in law will come over and remove the leafs. He didn't want to be responsible for cutting the spring seats off so I'll do that. Hopefully I cut through the axle tubes. I'll take it slow with a grinding rather than cutting wheel one the big chucks are off.

We also removed the rear crossmember for mounting a larger gas tank. We had to beat the hell out of the rivets (& ourselves!) to get them out. Especially hard was the rivets that hold the rear shackle body AND the cross member. We had to grind/pound from below which was TOUGH on the arms to swing a single jack overhead and sparks were falling on us so we had to cover up like terrorists! They also started a small fire in a nearby planter but luckily we noticed it quickly and it didn't catch our trellis/fence!


Last was removing EVERYTHING necessary to pull the cab. Seat, gas tank, straps, hold down (nearly frozen) scraping a ton of crap from under the seat. Then we couldn't lift it even enough to lay it back the frame like planned. I'll ask my son in law and a simple minded friend (ha ha) to come help us lift.

I'm very tempted to search for a local sandblaster to completely blast the cab, front clip and bed and epoxy prime it. Anyone local know someone I can trust not to warp the crap out of my bodywork?

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally Posted by 1958Warrior

I scribed a center line on the frame and on the center of the hangers, I then scribed a line 5/8" forward on the frame and placed the hanger on top , lined up on the forward scribe line clamped it down and drilled my holes.

The rear spring bushings are threaded , the bolt threads in and should move freely or move mine were seized and had to cut them with a torch then drive them out



http://www.autozone.com/parts/suspen...65_10195_1685/

The front rear spring bushings are brass and have a pin that goes through and yes the bushing will be egg shaped and wallerd out

Warrior, Thanks for the pix. I guess I was lucky as my shackle pins came out very very easily. The front-rear (sounds weird) were definitely NOT brass as you say yours were. They're steel on mine so does that mean they're likely aftermarket? No matter, nothing is egg shaped or weird so I plan to clean everything, lube up the parts with ordinary axle grease I guess and reassemble.

Orrie's comments about possibly being too low have gotten my attention. We'll see how it looks!

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

....i did not flip the spring hanger nor use lowering shackles, only removed the 2 short overload springs
you'll need to c-notch the frame and since your still using the rear shackle; you need to reinforce the frame by adding some width...

Huh? "Add some width"? Did you mean to write something else? I don't understand.

Originally Posted by _Ogre

i did a 3'' notch, i recommend a little more but it's hard to do without putting a hump in the bed...

I definitely will not be putting a hump in the bed. If that means the flipped shackle body has to go, then it does! I want my truck lower but I really don't want any of the crawling into driveways, etc nonsense.

Originally Posted by _Ogre

...i'd also recommend rebuilding the shackles while they apart...

I plan to clean them thoroughly and re lubricate with ordinary axle grease. There seemed to be some remnants of rubber spacers or washers between the shackle pin and the flat bar of the shackles (I'm probably using the wrong terminology) but other than that nothing was noticeably worn, just caked with grease. I'll clean and paint everything. What else should I do?

Originally Posted by _Ogre

what axle are you using?...

My truck already had a 10 bolt in it when I got it. It's geared fairly high (low numerically) likely what? 3.08 or 3.21? We're those the common ratios? It's non posi. I THOUGHT the Fatman kit I bought (2nd hand but new, never-installed) was a 5x5 pattern but found out this morning from FF that it's a 5x4.75" pattern so I'm good to go with my existing wheels - Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

Originally Posted by _Ogre

...if you haven't figured it out yet...
you've already mentioned tilting the cab; ''while your at it'' it make sense, it just adds to the time your down but no time like the present

Yes, I agree so we fully prepped for doing that today, just lacked manpower! Since my cab has so little lower body cancer I really think I can wire wheel the underside and prime/paint. BUT, I'm pretty certain I have cancer in my over head as there are very small (1/8" rust through spots in the rain gutters and evidence of some lame torch repairs inside at the factory seams. I'm debating blasting for that OR just doing as Bam (Kabwe) did and drill out the spot welds to see what's in there and replace the entire roof panel most likely. We'll see.

Originally Posted by _Ogre

you need all new brake lines as you've removed the front and rear lines already
the only thing left is a few feet in the middle; might as well do the master cylinder now
though a few use the stock mc

I already have a dual reservoir manual CPP master cylinder sitting on the shelf. It's a frame mount. I don't have enough vacuum with the "rumpety-rump" cam my truck came with but my brother in law is offering to swap cams for me. I admit I wouldn't really try this alone. I'm thinking a stock era-correct Corvette cam or I'll call one of the cam houses and tell them my plans, rear end ratio, etc. Opinions please if you have experience with 283's

Originally Posted by _Ogre

a new column of course... your choice new many hundreds or used gm; either can be had with many options

I already bought an ididit 32" column for a cheap price because it had a flat spot on the "bell" below the steering wheel. I called ididit and they shipped me a replacement free of charge!

Originally Posted by _Ogre

you shouldn't need any drive shaft mods since your just lowering the rear

Lowering front AND rear and when we disconnected the driveshaft it barely dropped at all. That's not right so I don't think it was setup properly to begin with. What's the rule of thumb? About 3 or 4 degrees upward slope toward engine/trans? My engine sits too close to the firewall too so planning on moving it forward just a bit, no more than an inch tops.

I have a company car daily driver and my dually but I know me and I can't have the truck torn apart forever, I'll lose steam. I need to keep moving steadily or I'll paralyze. Hate to admit it but I know it's true.

[tmoble]

>> "I can't have the truck torn apart forever, I'll lose steam. I need to keep moving steadily or I'll paralyze. Hate to admit it but I know it's true."

Real wisdom there. How many times have we seen this? Guy gets bogged down with unexpected repairs or just loses focus and months and years start going by. Good that you're up on this. I think this is why Bam is so encouraging. He just keeps going regardless.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Thanks for the encouraging words.

I agree. Bam went through a terrible personal situation with the shooter at work a couple years ago and though it slowed him down it didn't stop him. He has a vision of what he wants his truck to be and he doggedly keeps after it.

[OrrieG]

The engine and trans are usually 4 degrees down with carb mounting surface level. Ideally your pinion angle should be 4 degrees up for universals to work best. BUT they can be different and it will not be a big deal, the rearend is moving up and down anyway. When I converted to 4wd my axle went on the bottom of the springs with a 4" block with 2 degree angle. I drove it 15 years and probably 100K miles with no problems. Universals are still good.

The rubber washers are supposed to be there. Nothing fancy I made mine out of oil proof rubber hose. they keep the metal from tearing each other up and reduce vibration and squeaking.

Most welding shops sell a flame retardant shirt with leather sleeves, I finally bought one because I got tired of having the little burn marks on my neck and arms. Still have scars on my legs from welding in cutoffs as a kid with old school stick welder. Do not miss the slag going into my tennis shoes either.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally Posted by OrrieG

The engine and trans are usually 4 degrees down with carb mounting surface level. Ideally your pinion angle should be 4 degrees up for universals to work best. BUT they can be different and it will not be a big deal, the rearend is moving up and down anyway.

This is what I remember reading online. I don't see how it's possible to have the carb flange level but the trans angled down 4 degrees? Seems like having carb level so the floats work properly is more important than having the driveshaft universals aligned for neutral action since they're for coping with motion anyway!

I've gotta get over to The Car and Truck Shop soon to replace a broken signal lense so I'll ask about shackle rebuild kits (that I don't think I need anyway!)

[OrrieG]

Look at the intake, the carb flange is not parallel with the intake sides, it is 4 degrees off, lower in the front. So engine angles down and trans attaches to the engine.

[_Ogre]

I can't have the truck torn apart forever, I'll lose steam. I need to keep moving steadily or I'll paralyze. Hate to admit it but I know it's true.

you don't realize how much i can relate to that statement, probably most of us here

Huh? "Add some width"? Did you mean to write something else? I don't understand.

if you had a 4 link there would be no support needed past the c-notch other than to support the bed
since your still on springs, the rear shackle supports the same load as the front shackle
you don't want the frame above the c-notch flexing and breaking (you removed over half the frame depth)
i added as much structure on top of the frame as i could without raising the bed and then boxed the inside
compare this pic with your frame, i only added an inch plus, but it adds a lot of strength

I plan to clean them [shackles] thoroughly and re lubricate with ordinary axle grease.

since you have them 90% apart now, the shackle bushings are easy to replace
i'd still consider it as its a lot of work to redo if needed

again.. i wouldn't flip the shackle mount as your rear may end up lower than the front

nice rear end gear, steering column purchase and you have the mc covered
get er done

there's a reason truk took 8 years to finish... life gets in the way
good luck

[Dan in Pasadena]

Thanks Ogre,
Yeah, I've been thinking over your suggestion and I think I will put the shackles back in original position with Grade 8 bolts. I'm also questioning my decision to move the cross member back for the larger fuel tank. Do I REALLY need 21 gallons? Wouldn't 16 or 17 really be enough and not weaken the rear frame area in addition to the notching?

I'd already decided to add strength on top of the notch but I didn't know anyone else had done that. I figured I could maybe add a couple 1" or 2" square tubes on top without hitting the underside of the bed and as you did, box the whole thing in.

By the way, where are your shocks in that photo? Was it still in process?

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally Posted by OrrieG

Look at the intake, the carb flange is not parallel with the intake sides, it is 4 degrees off, lower in the front. So engine angles down and trans attaches to the engine.

Ah, excellent. So if the carb flange is level and I put the angle finder on I get what I get and put the upward tilt on the rearend to match? If so, easy peasy!

[Coupeguy2001]

I commend your enthusiasm. Looks like fun.
I hope nobody walks up your driveway and steals anything.
If you want it lower, try making longer shackles, and re-using the pins and barrels.
I used 3" drop springs with 1 1/2 inch longer shackles.
Those rubber things that fell apart on your shackles are grease seals that keep the dirt and water out and the grease in.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Thanks coupe guy! No one can walk up my driveway because what you see is in the backyard behind a six foot locked iron gate and 100 lbs of dog are guarding it. Along with something else I won't list. I'd say about 150 lbs, but the other 50 lbs is three other small dogs combined.. And I don't think they'd scare anybody.

I've thought about lowering springs but the problem is my springs are 60 years old and have already sagged who knows how much over the decades. So 3" lower from stock won't be 3" lower than it is now. I also don't understand how longer shackles lower it unless you flip the shackles to point upward. Seems that longer shackles in the original hanging down position would raise the rearend...I don't know, maybe I've got it all wrong. Flipping the axle on top is my current plan. If someone can explain an easier technique, I'm all for it.

[Coupeguy2001]

maybe your shackles were flipped by the previous owner due to sagging springs?
The shackles go up in the cast steel mount on the frame, and make it harder to unscrew the nuts, just OBTW.
I would put the rear back together the way it was, since it is just 4 shackles, and when you are done with the front, see how it sits.
My springs were original, and the rear sat pretty high before the shackles and spring drop.
my axle is still under the spring
If you add it up, I dropped the truck 4.5 inches with nothing cut except I cut the frame bumpers above the axle down to about a half inch thick, then reinstalled them. doesn't bottom out unless I put about 500 lbs back there.
You will have to use wedges between the spring and the axle to point it at the trans.
You can get them at NAPA or car quest or a place like that, OR! get them off your front straight axle......! but its possible they might not be thick enough

Here is a pic of how it sits

[_Ogre]

Do I REALLY need 21 gallons?

i have the 21 and glad i did.
you really can't use the last few gallons without worrying about running out of fuel
so in essence the 21 gal tank becomes a 17 gal tank

it also depends on how you plan to use your truck
if your like some of my friends around here... as much as they drive them; no tank needed

shock mounts in stock location

[OrrieG]

Ogre, your shock photo bring up another good point, you do not want is so low that anything can contact pavement in the event of a catastrophic tire problem. Low is cool until you pancake it a speed....best case lots of metal to repaint, worst oil or trans pan or gas tank are compromised and sparks cause a fire...

[Dan in Pasadena]

Coupe guy, how is your don't lowered? I tried your link but it didn't work. Is it a dropped axle or ifs?

[Coupeguy2001]

IFS.
It's a Kimbridge front frame clip.
It's dimensioned after an 89 Buick Regal, a 5000 LB car.
It's robust. Now I can just go down to NAPA and buy parts for a Buick regal, cutlass, elcamino, etc. and the parts just bolt on. Control arms included.
I built the whole front end up on a table, then used a engine hoist, and slid it into the frame. Had a welder come and make it permanent.
It was pretty easy.
Wheels are 5 on 5 lugs like full size Chevy Impala/ 17"X10" wide

sorry, gotta fix that link

[1958Warrior]

With the axle on top of the springs and rear shackle in stock location should give the max drop of 7",with the shackle flipped and the axle on top of the springs would only give 5.5" of drop.

Glad to hear all your spring hardware is in good shape , I made my grease seals out of some 1/0 wire cable rubber that we had stripped off at work , rubber hose as Orrie did would work just as good .

They sell C notch kits for a handsome price but I found all I needed at the local recycling yard , got some 1/4" plate and a piece of 5" steel pipe(not cast iron) for like $10 , got enough to do 5x .

I have a copy of the No limits rear axle flip video VHS tape , I copied it to cd , I can send it to you if you PM me your address , I sent it to one guy before and his computer or whatever he was tring to play it in wouldn't play it but my windows media player played it fine. Its yours if you want to try it, Also shows removing some rear springs and shortening others,
No limits doesn't sell the rear flip or the Camaro clip videos any more.

With my engine level , I had -3* at the trans that with -2* on the rear pinion for a total of -5*.
The No limits video also stated to set the rear at -2*

I know my engine is dynode at 380hp and 445 ft lbs torque so I know my rear is litraly going to be moving


I remember seeing guys running old school traction bars and seeing the snubbers move up a good 1"+ to contact the leaf spring. So I know there is a lot of movement going on at the axle, when it squats an hooks up. It all depends on how you drive, I know I'm going to drive mine like I stole it.
I just didn't want any positive pinion angle that's when things start binding and breaking.

Just keep focused 1 task at a time IFS, then rear axle , then ?? , but once you hit a goal the next will be that much more obtainable.

Your making good progress so far and with an extra hand here and there that will sure help. wish I could be there to drink your beer and lend a hand

[_Ogre]

Originally Posted by OrrieG

Ogre, your shock photo bring up another good point, you do not want is so low that anything can contact pavement in the event of a catastrophic tire problem. Low is cool until you pancake it a speed....best case lots of metal to repaint, worst oil or trans pan or gas tank are compromised and sparks cause a fire...

it's pretty hard to get suspension parts so low that they would rub because of the wheels
my shocks are in the stock location compared to the 15'' steel wheels
with a flat tire nothing will rub, take a wheel off at speed and yes you will grind metal
no different than a stock truck loosing a wheel

compare this pic of a stock tf suburban front axle shock mount with the pic of my rear shock mount
both are within a quarter inch of each other looking at the steel rim





even with 4 flat tires no suspension part will rub asphalt
body parts possible

[_Ogre]

Originally Posted by 1958Warrior

I know my engine is dynode at 380hp and 445 ft lbs torque so I know my rear is litraly going to be moving

lots of hp on springs brings up spring wrap and wheel hop
if your running lots of hp on springs you need a torsion bar to eliminate spring wrap
truk initially had no torque bar; under heavy acceleration my driveshaft would hit the rear x-member
i added the torque bar and have no rear diff rotation or movement up of the pinion under acceleration

the trans am and any 3rd gen camero has the torque bar boss cast onto the rear diff case



the torque bar runs the length of the drive shaft and had a slide mount on the trans
i use a trailer shackle to allow lateral movement while locking in rotational movement



unfortunately the trailer shackle has no grease zerks or brass bushings
after 15000 miles it's starting to clank, i may go to a sway bar link or a rubber bushing style

traction bars work by limiting the rear diff rotation and thus spring wrap
the 3rd gen torque bar eliminates spring wrap very effectively, similar to a 4 link
though a 4 link is more drag strip oriented and not a good choice for a street driven truck

[1958Warrior]

I'm installing a set of Lakewood traction bars now ,I have to narrow up my sway bar and make some new sway bar mounts. I like the old school look ,will see how it holds up.
If need be I can fab up something along the caltrack line down the road once I'm on it.

[Coupeguy2001]

I installed No Limit traction bars. they are about 40 inches long.
They have beefy brackets and I made front brackets that are longer. nice pieces, powdercoated as well.

[OrrieG]

Didn't 60's mopars deal with this with a bumper on the top of the pinion shaft?? I always used the "slapper" type.

[Coupeguy2001]

ORRIE, I remember seeing that setup on a friend's belvedere a long time ago. I remember thinking it was a rube Goldberg thing at the time.
I can remember sitting in the back seat with my girlfriend and feeling it hit the floor under my feet somewhere.
made me laugh every time it bumped under there.
Half the time, he was trying to impress his girlfriends by doing burnouts.
Don't think I remember feeling anything when it was just the two of us guys.
Course at the time, he used to load the trunk with his dad's tools for traction sometimes, so that may have something to do with the bumping on the floor.
With headers and cherry bombs, you couldn't hear it anyway.
383 with a torqueflite and pushbuttons.