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#176 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 1,267
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Quote:
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1969 RS/SS Z10 Camaro Pace coupe 1972 GMC Short Step buildhttp://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=1#post6356218 1979 Mazda RX7 1979 Pontiac Trans Am WS6 & 1979 Pontiac Trans Am 10th Anniversary 1999 Honda Valkyrie 2006 Corvette Z06 2010 BMW 650i |
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#177 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 203
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Quote:
I did the 0 to 60 mph runs first and couldn't believe the results! As a matter of fact I did about 6 runs to make sure. 0 to 60 avg = 11.83 seconds That's 10 seconds faster. 1/4 mile avg =19.29 @ 74.8 MPH Using the online calculators the trap speed HP was 134.15 and the elapsed time HP was 114.25 for an average of 124.20. That makes the calculated flywheel HP 152. Like I said I couldn't believe the 0 to 60 times so I found an online 0 to 60 calculator and used 124.20 rear wheel HP and it estimated 11.64 seconds which is certainly within the margin of error. I say that's not bad for a 2 ton brick. It certainly exceeds my goals for this project. EE says there may be a few more HP in the tune, if so great if not I am very satisfied. Thanks for all the positive comments and I will be posting progress reports good or bad.
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#178 |
Senior Member
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Location: Oblong, Illinois
Posts: 7,028
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
That is a substantial improvement that I bet you can really feel in seat of the pants driving. The smiles per mile ratio is probably way up too.
Ron, when you do your next project please be sure to link it here so we can follow along. |
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#179 |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 203
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Thanks A/D, will do. Nothing like a little success with a project to get you revved up for the next one.
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#180 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,041
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Wow! What a difference! Glad for ya.
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1952 Canadian Chevy 1300 C4 IFS & D44 IRS 5.3 HO L33 My Build: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=632938 ![]() |
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#181 |
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1,352
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Wow! Pert near cut 0-60 in half! Thats awesome congrats on a job well done.
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1967 C10 Suburban 454/TH400/3.07's An Average Joe and His 'Burb: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=775843 |
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#182 |
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Northeast KS
Posts: 1,777
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
nice improvement! i bet it sure is fun to drive.
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1999 GMC Suburban K2500 SLT, 454/4L80E 1991 Z/28, 6.0L/T56 1949 GMC 250, S10 Frame, 6.0L/4L80E Instagram @aceshighspeedshop |
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#183 |
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Central OK
Posts: 521
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Very impressive change in the numbers! Not to mention seamlessly blending old and new technology and craftsmanship. It has been well worth the wait!
-Joe
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My '57 "Ram-rolet" not a NAPCO build: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=589917 |
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#184 |
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 203
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Thanks guys!!!
I am certainly glad to have successfully finished this project, but a little sad also. It has been a very challenging project at times, but very satisfying and a lot of fun working with EE and Z10 on it. EE has been working on it with me since the beginning which has been 4-5 years. If we had thought it through a little better we might not have ever started. We decided we wanted to fuel inject a 6 cylinder engine with 3 intake runners using 2 throttle bodies and 4 injectors. And then put a supercharger on it. WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG? Well, as it turns out a lot of things. However, nothing we weren't able to overcome. Thanks again, on to the next project.
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#185 |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Atlanta, Ga.
Posts: 1,104
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Very high tech on a low tech project - I loved every bit so far.
R46 |
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#186 |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 203
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
With almost 500 miles on the new engine and supercharger the truck is running great. EE is still tweaking the VE tables but it is mostly to correct something he doesn't like in the data logs and nothing you can feel while driving. The trucks drivability is very good and is comparable to a modern vehicle. Acceleration is very smooth with no hesitation, stumbles, surging, or hiccups at all.
While researching the McCulloch supercharger I discovered that the ball drive system they use builds a lot of heat which can cause the need for frequent rebuilds. In an effort to be proactive I decided to see if I can supply some cool air to the oil sump of the unit. There is a set of louvers on each side of the radiator core support for the horns. I decided to relocate the horn and use the one on the drivers side for the fresh air supply. Someone had drilled a big ugly hole it at some time probably for an A/C line so I cut the louvers out for a clear hole for the air to enter. Then I fabricated a 3" x 6" rectangular to a 3" round transition to route air to the supercharger. I had to dust off my geometry skills from high school and do some Google research to pull it off, but it worked out pretty well. I want to get a thermocouple attachment for my Fluke meter to test the effectiveness. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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#187 |
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 914
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Awesome work , you got some mad-skills. Keep the photos coming.
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I'm not tail-gating, I'm drafting. ![]() http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=432758 |
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#188 |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Morada, CA --- (Near Lodi)
Posts: 1,443
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Nice Job youz guyz!!!!
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#189 |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Midland, TX
Posts: 1,267
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Nice work my friend!
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1969 RS/SS Z10 Camaro Pace coupe 1972 GMC Short Step buildhttp://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=1#post6356218 1979 Mazda RX7 1979 Pontiac Trans Am WS6 & 1979 Pontiac Trans Am 10th Anniversary 1999 Honda Valkyrie 2006 Corvette Z06 2010 BMW 650i |
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#190 |
Senior Member
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Location: Oblong, Illinois
Posts: 7,028
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Great idea, impressive execution. Can I come apprentice with you for awhile?
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#191 |
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 203
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Thanks everyone. You can come anytime A/D, but I'm afraid it might be a slow and painful apprenticeship. I have often wished that I had someone like you nearby that I could pick up some paint and body tips from.
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#192 |
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1,352
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
I second this. Quality work!
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#193 |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 203
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
1000 mile update Just turned over a thousand miles on the new engine and nearly eight hundred on the supercharger. I am happy to report that everything is working great. EE was concerned that we were getting close to the maximum duty cycle on the fuel injectors when the engine is under boost. So, instead of changing the injectors to a larger size we raised the fuel pressure from 3 bar to 4 bar. (43.5 to 58 psi) This effectively increased their output about 12 % and put us back in the safe zone.
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#194 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: wind lake WI
Posts: 1,747
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Just too cool!
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#195 |
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 348
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
wish we could get more vids of it driving from in the cab and outside.
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#196 |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 203
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Thanks, I'll see what I can do. My computer skills are basic to say the least.
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#197 |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 203
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
On post 186 I documented building a cold air duct to help cool the supercharger oil. At that time I said that I would like to get a thermocouple for my meter to test the effectiveness of said duct. Well I finally found one on EBay for a reasonable price. First I built a probe that fits in the dipstick hole and inserted the thermocouple wire into it and sealed the end with heat shrink tubing.
![]() For test one I removed the duct and cut some louvers in a piece of sheet metal to simulate the conditions before I installed the duct. I also left the type "F" transmission fluid in the unit. ![]() Here are some pictures of the rest of the rig. ![]() ![]() ![]() The test run was approximately 14 miles round trip at 75 MPH and the maximum oil temperature was 220 degrees. Ambient temperature was 72 degrees. For test two I removed the louvered sheet metal and replaced the duct. Then I drove the same route at the same speed. Ambient temperature was 73 degrees. The results were somewhat disappointing, but I did see a 4 degree drop in the maximum temperature. (216 degrees) I was hoping for more. I read on a McCullough web site that "B & M Synthetic Trick Shift" transmission fluid would reduce the oil temperature of these units and produce more boost because of less slippage. ![]() When I looked for the synthetic B &M fluid I found out it has been discontinued. I don't know why. But, after an extensive Google search I was able to find 4 quarts. So, for test three I left the cooling duct in place and replaced the type "F" transmission fluid with the B & M fluid. Same route, same speed, and same ambient temperature as test two. (73 degrees) I was pleasantly surprised at the results of this test. Maximum temperature was 11 degrees less than test one and 7 degrees less than test two. (209 degrees) I didn't see or feel any extra boost but maybe EE can tell if there is any difference when he has his data logger on it. I really would like to get the oil temperature below 200 degrees and I have an idea for a heat sink that might take better advantage of the extra air provided by the cold air duct. More on that later. At least this gives me a little more of a cushion before the oil temperature gets into the danger zone. I understand bad things happen to ATF at about 240 degrees. I have a friend that claims to know a lot about oil chemistry and he swears by the following product. ![]() Since I had everything set up I decided to go into Mythbusters mode. A 7.5 oz bottle is supposed to treat a transmission with 12 quarts of oil in it so I figured 1/2 oz should treat the 8 oz of oil in my supercharger. For test four I added 1/2 oz of the treatment to the B & M oil in the unit. Same route, same speed, and 73 degree ambient temperature. This test produced the highest temperature of the day. (221 degrees) Sorry Ricky "BUSTED". It might work better in a transmission but I am skeptical. The results of test four required a fifth test be done. For this one I flushed out the oil with the transmission treatment in it and replaced it with the B & M fluid. Everything else was the same except the ambient temperature was 75 degrees by now. Despite the increase in ambient temperature I was able to duplicate the results of test three with a maximum oil temperature of 209 degrees. This back to back to back test gives me confidence in the results.
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"In an insane world a sane man must appear insane" ~Spock~ Last edited by diceman50; 04-04-2016 at 12:21 AM. |
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#198 |
Senior Member
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Location: Doodah Kansas
Posts: 7,773
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
is the oil moving in the supercharger? can you add a plate cooler and pump (if splash oiling)? convection is just a terrible method of cooling without significant fins or surface area. if you are really looking for max gains by convection, get the black paint off (not because its black, but because it smooths the surface) and you can even sandblast or glass bead the case for more surface area. I would almost bet the 4 degree difference (duct/no duct) could be attributed to ambient changes other than temperature (sun angle for example)
your duct only works when you are moving, temps will spike when you come to a stoplight because the heat soak will reach equilibrium (the oil will be as hot as the case with enough time). I remember doing heat soak analysis on an aircraft cabin, the cabin of an unattended aircraft parked on the tarmac would eventually reach max temperature without some kind of airflow, insulation and window shades just extended the amount of time it took. anyway, fascinating project!
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#199 |
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 203
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Thanks for your reply joedoh. We are thinking along the same lines it seems. Yes, the oil is moving inside the unit. There is an internal pump to force oil through the bearings. People use external pumps and heat exchangers to cool the oil on these units, but I don't like the looks or the complexity involved. Most of them are on high boost max power installations.
My supercharger is a variable speed unit that I converted to direct drive by removing the variable speed parts and cutting off the front of the housing. The flat plate behind the pulley is a piece of aluminum that I epoxied on to clean up the front of the unit. ![]() My idea is to replace that flat 1/8" plate with a 1/4" one with fins milled into it and then attach it with thermally conductive epoxy. I think your suggestion of no paint is also a good idea. I think that should be sufficient to reduce the oil temp on this relatively low output application to a safe level. I am also exploring the use of ceramic balls and bearings for this unit. People who have done it report much lower oil temps. Besides I like the idea of it. I have several of these units, so I will probably build a new unit with these improvements and use the present one as a spare. Thanks again for your reply and suggestions.
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#200 |
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 203
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Re: Supercharger for my Apache
Thought I would give you an update. I can't believe it has been 2 years since we finished this project. The truck is still running well with only some minor issues along the way. I have put several thousand miles on it since my last post, but I don't drive it as much as I used to. I injured my shoulder about a year ago (along with some other health issues) and the lack of power steering made it difficult to drive the truck. Shoulder is better now and I drove it to a cruise last weekend. Felt good to get it out.
Also, I have moved on to another project that doesn't fit the criteria for this site. Although it does have an S10 chassis under it. Hope everyone is doing well. Thanks "Diceman" ![]()
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"In an insane world a sane man must appear insane" ~Spock~ Last edited by diceman50; 01-21-2019 at 03:19 PM. Reason: correction |
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