Some concept ideas on soon to post build thread

[FAKKY]

Hey guys
So I'm picking up my 3100 Apache 1957 Panel Truck tomorrow. Original straight engine with a manual T5 transmission (I believe thats right)

I've been reading and researching a bunch of material and threads - learnt turning a wrench on a twin turbo diesel truck - my 1st foray in NA engine. So far I have the following potential build ideas. I'm interested to hear from people that have practical experience in any of them. There's a lot of material on the web .... so Im trying to learn from people that have been there and done it.

Here's where I'm at so far. Still early.

ENGINE- LS1/LS2 or LQ4/LQ9 series engine. $3000 Ballpark 350-400hp

ACCESSORIES - KWIKPERF Brackets and aftermarket AC - $2000

TRANSMISSION- 4l60E - $750-$1000 or Manual /T56TR6060 $1500 ?

CONTROLLER - USE STOCK ECM/TCU and WIRING reworked and programmed
$500
Else FITECH and all aftermakrket TCU/MSD 6LS etc - but dont think so based on cost.

SUSPENSION/BRAKES
C10 Frame and e-zchassisswaps mounts for welding - $500 + $750 = $1250
or
HEIDTS SUPERRIDE II -$3500

REAR END - No Idea yet. Depends on frame swap maybe.

FUEL - High Pressure Fuel pump kit ~$500


So - that's roughly where my head is at right now - here come the questions.


1) DBC or DBW. Im leaning to a fully integrated DBW - but any reason to really go DBC apart from throttle response/tuning effort?

2) How do I make sure that the transmission can physically fit under the chassis. For example - if I decided to do a 4L80E - how would I know if I could make it fit before buying it ?

3) I'm leaning to a full frame swap as I get full new boxed frame and IFS for less money than a welding in a front clip or IFS kit. But ??? Never done ither before ...... so open to thoughts/pluses/minuses.

4) What am I not thinking about Going to be a big learning curve for me when this moves from theory to reality. So want to nail the theory down as best I can first on best parts for the $$ to support a daily driveable and safe/fun street machine.

thanks guys

[dsraven]

-what do you want to end up with, stock height or low ride. low ride usually means the front wheels get moved forward some because as the wheels sit lower in the wheel opening they look like they are too far towards the rear of the opening. just because the front fender wheel opening is tapered on the rear and more circular on the front. usually an inch and a half or two inches.
-a frame swap is a lot harder than just dropping the body on and putting in some store bought brackets. this is because the original frame is really flat except for a small bump over the rear wheels. a newer frame will have a larger bump there so the floor of the box, or the panel, will need to be raised off the frame to clear that hump or else it will need to be cut away to allow the frame to protrude up through the floor. another thing to consider is all the fab work that goes with the frame swap. bumper brackets, steering shaft modifications, shifter hook ups, rad to frame issues, brake booster mounting issues-firewall or frame mounted (firewall mount should mean beefing up the firewall for support). the donor frame will probably need a suspension rebuild and going through the rear end etc. these are just a few of the considerations. there will likely be lots more guys chiming in. just saying, consider all the costs and how much you can do yourself and how much needs to be farmed out, then compare that with an already custom built chassis that fits the truck body, or modify the original to what you want for front end etc.

[mr48chev]

I had a 57 3100 panel back in the early 70's with a built 327 in it and I have to go along with Dsraven in that you are going to end up hacking up and raising the floors of the panel a lot to stick it on that frame if you want the truck to be low.

There are lot better ways to do it and do it right with the stock frame rather than cobbling a frame that really isn't going to fit under it.

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by dsraven

-what do you want to end up with, stock height or low ride. low ride usually means the front wheels get moved forward some because as the wheels sit lower in the wheel opening they look like they are too far towards the rear of the opening. just because the front fender wheel opening is tapered on the rear and more circular on the front. usually an inch and a half or two inches.

Stock Height most likely.

Originally Posted by dsraven

-a frame swap is a lot harder than just dropping the body on and putting in some store bought brackets. this is because the original frame is really flat except for a small bump over the rear wheels. a newer frame will have a larger bump there so the floor of the box, or the panel, will need to be raised off the frame to clear that hump or else it will need to be cut away to allow the frame to protrude up through the floor. another thing to consider is all the fab work that goes with the frame swap. bumper brackets, steering shaft modifications, shifter hook ups, rad to frame issues, brake booster mounting issues-firewall or frame mounted (firewall mount should mean beefing up the firewall for support). the donor frame will probably need a suspension rebuild and going through the rear end etc. these are just a few of the considerations. there will likely be lots more guys chiming in. just saying, consider all the costs and how much you can do yourself and how much needs to be farmed out, then compare that with an already custom built chassis that fits the truck body, or modify the original to what you want for front end etc.

Good points. The Mounts for the EZ kit supply all the radiator/bumper brackets and offsets required to level out the truck after a C10 frame swap. Being a Panel however I could be required to pull the floor and make further adjustments - not sure. Understood on all the linkage requirements. Most of this stuff I've found over time is not too hard once you've been through it once. 1st time to install a twin turbo system took me 2 full days. Last one was a few hours. Not a great comparison - but you get the drift. Im also lucky to have access to some guys that would help me out for beer/$$ and anything requiring welding I can tack it in and pay a mobile guy to do it right.

Good points though. Have you done a clip/suspension swap versus a frame swap - which way would you go and why ?

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

I had a 57 3100 panel back in the early 70's with a built 327 in it and I have to go along with Dsraven in that you are going to end up hacking up and raising the floors of the panel a lot to stick it on that frame if you want the truck to be low.

So this a no ?

http://e-zchassisswaps.com/kit.php?category=5

Seems like all the brackets and offset mounts once added to the C10 frame would align ok. See the bridging mount in the middle here (bottom pic)

http://e-zchassisswaps.com/index.php

But relooking maybe that would leave me with too much of a gap between body and frame at middle/front and give it a super high rear without a larger body support up front which wouldn't work. Then everything else might not fit correct .... puts me into further customizing.

I'm not totally against just adding in a IFS front and built rear .... but it costs more than a frame swap - and just never liked the idea of cutting into frames and super welds everywhere.

Originally Posted by mr48chev

There are lot better ways to do it and do it right with the stock frame rather than cobbling a frame that really isn't going to fit under it.

Like ? Reason Im here

[mr48chev]

Take a look at what Steve has to offer for the TF trucks here
http://www.industrialchassisinc.com/

http://www.industrialchassisinc.com/...1959-gm-trucks

I'd still explore all of the options and figure out how to come out with the best truck I could for the effort and money put in it though.

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

Take a look at what Steve has to offer for the TF trucks here
http://www.industrialchassisinc.com/

http://www.industrialchassisinc.com/...1959-gm-trucks

I'd still explore all of the options and figure out how to come out with the best truck I could for the effort and money put in it though.

I have the install doc from Steve, as mentioned only thing I don't like is you have to source the dakota front IFS (probably no biggie) and then CUT the frame to weld in.

I'm just not a fan of cutting frames was reason for looking closer at frame swap - but sounds like your saying no biggie ?

[dsraven]

don't know what the budget is, would be good to know sorta what range.
price it all out compared to a new custom frame.
or
box in the old frame, weld in the camaro or whatever out front, build custom crossmembers and frame stiffeners etc.
my advice, not that I am an expert, would be to get the old frame out from under, check it all out front to rear for cracks, bends, rusty pit marks etc, check it all out for square and straight, then decide what you wanna do. a laser level and some adjustable jacks are good for this. run a straight line down the middle, from front to rear, to check for straight. if good then check corner to corner for square. 1/8" is max outta square from the gm manual.
check out welders series for brackets etc you may need. price it all out as good as you can and then add a bunch for issues you WILL find as you go along.
good luck, keep us posted.

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by dsraven

don't know what the budget is, would be good to know sorta what range.
price it all out compared to a new custom frame.
or
box in the old frame, weld in the camaro or whatever out front, build custom crossmembers and frame stiffeners etc.
my advice, not that I am an expert, would be to get the old frame out from under, check it all out front to rear for cracks, bends, rusty pit marks etc, check it all out for square and straight, then decide what you wanna do. a laser level and some adjustable jacks are good for this. run a straight line down the middle, from front to rear, to check for straight. if good then check corner to corner for square. 1/8" is max outta square from the gm manual.
check out welders series for brackets etc you may need. price it all out as good as you can and then add a bunch for issues you WILL find as you go along.
good luck, keep us posted.

Good Tips.

Leaning more to just doing the IFS (HEIDT or Industrial Chassis) on existing frame. Then once that is done move onto motor. I will check the frame as good as I can also prior to welding in but the truck has little rust overall. If I go the IFS weld in route - I probably wont pull the body etc.

[FAKKY]

Budget is around $20k.
But i know how this stuff goes.

Truck 8250 3100 1957 Chevy Panel
Dakota IFS 1500 industrialchassisinc.com
ENGINE/TRANS 5000 LS2/LQ9/4L60E
AC AND ACCESS 2500 VINTAGE/KWIK PERFORMANCE
HARNESS 500
FUEL 500 FOR EFI
INTERIOR 1000 SEALS/GLASS/COVERS
ADHOC 1500 MOUNTS/ADAPTERS/TOOLS

~$20k.

This is not paint and no custom interior. That I will do in a number of years.

[dsraven]

when you do a mustangII or front clip from something else you really need to know the proper rake angle you are looking for and ensure the frame is set at that angle and level side to side before you start anything. I used some modified jack stands with threaded rod and lock nuts on mine to get the frame setting firmly off the floor and not relying on a block of wood, which can compress or move, along with a digital level, to make sure it is all good. you would be surprised at the actual difference between the bubble level on the digital level, which would look like it was bang on, then when the digital screen was checked the angles could be out by a degree or two. that makes a difference when you are talking about front end alignment angles.
a front clip is possibly easier in that it comes to you already in one piece. the weld in members have to be assembled in place so it becomes a little more involved and you need some spendy clamps etc to hold it all together while you measure and tack stuff. the kit I bought was shipped to me with the incorrect cross member and tech support was poor."just set it level and weld it in". well, thats great but I had 1/2 " gap on the frame at some areas. not really any help given from the vendor in the blueprint end of things. anyway, if you buy a kit somewhere ensure you get the blueprint of the thing so you know the angles and distances between pivot points etc. same goes for a front clip. research the angle of the lower control arms etc or measure and document them before taking the clip out of the donor vehicle (make sure the engine and trans etc are still in so your measurements are correct). that way you know what the angles are before, so you can copy them on assembly and weld in. there are lots of pics if you google it. some not so nice jobs and some really professional looking jobs. it seems like a stock frame with a newer steering arrangement may be the better way to go with a panel.
any ideas on what you want for rear suspension? rear diff?

[HotRod53]

I know this will open a can of worms but here goes. you could just go buy a jaguar take the the front and rear suspension out of it and use it. then you will have 4 wheel independent suspension and 4 wheel disc brakes jags also have killer seats all power and most are heated

[dsraven]

now there's thinking outside the box. would you have to wear a funny driving hat and gloves then? haha

[47 Fasttoys]

Yes, as far as the hat and gloves go. The same applies to MG and Triumph owners, but on the plus side when the people at the DMV hear any of the old British Leyland brands mentioned they slip you a business card for a local electrician and a sheet metal shop. LOL. Been there, done that, had a hat.
Rob

[mongocanfly]

Dadgumit...does that mean when I put the vette fromt end under my truck I have to wear the fancy yellow corvette jacket?

[HotRod53]

It would be a dead give-away when they see how well that panel cornered ha -ha... but the suspension would work. there is a bunch of info on some of the other sites on how to do it, and you can pick up a jag pretty cheap don't just buy the suspension get the whole car there is a bunch of stuff you can use off of it. think of the possibilities. put on your old school hot rodding skills hat and let your imagination fly.

[lynx5653]

Here are a couple pics of trucks on a c10 chassis using ezchassis swap kits, they may not be in the weeds that a lot of you guys seem to like but for us that like our trucks to look like trucks I think they look great.

[e015475]

No pork-pie hat, but here's a Jag IRS in a '49. On bags. Narrowed 4" and bed tubbed to get the tires to fit under the rear fenders





The front suspension, also on bags........



And if you want any kind of headers that fit the rear-steer Jag rack - forgetaboutit - I fabbed this set



High hopes for good handling and a plush ride with the Jag setup.

You can weld a Jag IFS/IRS in a chassis in a weekend. There's a fair amount of fab work for this one though. If you'd rather drive than fab, I'd look into Industrial Chassis' front end kit or one of the already-engineered Corvette suspensions.

[HotRod53]

those look great. but if you are on a budget there are a lot of other options to explore the only reason i suggested the jag idea was you can get the whole car for much less than a mustang 2 set up and get the killer seats and stereo system plus what ever else you can adapt to our trucks

[Softpatch]

Originally Posted by e015475

No pork-pie hat, but here's a Jag IRS in a '49. On bags. Narrowed 4" and bed tubbed to get the tires to fit under the rear fenders
.

.
.what year/model.....Jag .? or would I say fordmoguar
.
.
.

.

[e015475]

I want a Chevy powered Series 3 XJ-6 in the worst way. Got. to. stop. buying. projects!. Love the pics.

The jag stuff shown in the pictures is a mish-mash of different years.

The IFS is from a 1987 XJS, but any year of XJS will work. Any XJ6 will work up through 1987.

Ditto for the IRS

The IRS is from a '83 XJ6, but the diff is from a '90s XLS with the straight six to get the better ratio.

We're not doing the OP any favors with this Jag stuff - he'd be a lot more likely to have something reliable to drive in a reasonable time with one of the more mainstream suspension systems available

[OrrieG]

Originally Posted by e015475

I want a Chevy powered Series 3 XJ-6 in the worst way. Got. to. stop. buying. projects!. Love the pics.

Have you seen this? http://jagsthatrun.com/

[e015475]

All too well - I drank the Kool-aid once already - sold it to finance my '49


LS V8

[FAKKY]

Dang it - leave for 24 hours and my thread blows up

So heres what I was doing today.

[FAKKY]

Hardly any rust - very clean. Was originally looking for a regular bed apache ...... but wife likes the hearse look ...... and great for camping/road trips with the dogs ------ same front clip - so I was sold. Kinda unique too.

I spoke with Steve a little more at industrial chassis and think I will go this route (as of now). I like the "idea" of a frame swap ..... rather than welding and cutting into frame, but steves kit with the design seems better bang for the buck - $750 for the kit, $500 should cover a front axle and any parts I need.

So what do we think for the rear ??

E015475 - what LS and what transmission ? What tips do you have on the swap regarding biggest hurdles or lessons learned ?

The Jag Idea is great - I know you can use the jag IFS up front only too similar to the dakota. If I was going to do JUST a frame or suspension swap I would possibly look into this ...... but STeves kit seems godo value to have good brakes/steering and IFS up front. LEts me spend a few weeks doing that and move onto Rear .... and then engine/trans.