dealing with rust

[Harleymike]

OK, my roof and dash have surface rust. The plan is to remove the rust and get down to metal.
But I'm worried I wont remove every bit of it and rust would come back.
I have looked at some products, but its very confusing because there are so many.
Any suggestions on what to use on the metal before priming with epoxy primer.

Thanks for the help

[Richard2112]

https://www.jamestowndistributors.co...uct.do?pid=557

I use this on everything, dash, roof, frame, leaf springs....

It doesn't take much, just a spray and wipe. Too much will leave a gummy residue. It is mostly phosphoric acid so it can burn on the skin. I don't use gloves and it doesn't cause burns on my hands but if you're spraying in a windy area, you don't want this stuff to blow back in your face. That isn't fun.

I clean the area (sand it) then spray some on and wipe it with a shop towel. Let it sit for a couple hours or overnight is best.

[Captainfab]

Before using any sort of chemicals to remove or neutralize rust, check to be sure that it is compatible with the brand of epoxy primer that you will be using. I prefer sandblasting to using any chemicals.

[The Rocknrod]

You can buy ospho at home depot also.

[nail pounder]

Originally Posted by captainfab

before using any sort of chemicals to remove or neutralize rust, check to be sure that it is compatible with the brand of epoxy primer that you will be using. I prefer sandblasting to using any chemicals.

x2

[Richard2112]

Yeah do a small patch and check it before going full bore with chemicals. Sandblasting is great but leaves dust all over the garage/driveway. Can warp sheet metal.

Heinz cleaning vinegar works surprisingly well also. This trans case was soaked in it for two days. Came out nearly spotless.

[Richard2112]

Originally Posted by The Rocknrod

You can buy ospho at home depot also.

And ACE Hardware

[Harleymike]

Sand blasting isn't an option. Wish it was.
Im using eastwood's epoxy primer over metal.
I will have to check into compatibility.

I see eastwood makes a rust encapsulater product. I believe it can be applied then topcoat. Might look into this stuff also.http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-bla...over-rust.html

[The Rocknrod]

I rebuilt a Muncie T-10 when I was in San Diego at the base hobby shop, sand-blasted the case. I dont know where I was going with that . . .

[raggedjim]

Originally Posted by The Rocknrod

I rebuilt a Muncie T-10 when I was in San Diego at the base hobby shop, sand-blasted the case. I dont know where I was going with that . . .

Man, I miss the Hobby shops on base, I used them in San Diego and Little Creek Va.

I've used Ospho on some panels and my frame but haven't top coated them yet.

I'm hoping there won't be any reactions when I finally do top coat.

Rg

[yeah_yeah_na]

https://goo.gl/images/TNReLC

I hope the link works.

I'm not sure if you dont want to use a sandblaster because of the mess, if thats the case, these things are great, I use them in my restoration shop on areas where mess is an issue.

The best product to use under a primer in dupont metal conditioner, its sold here in New zealand so i assume it is in the US as well. Follow the instructions and it works great. Coat over with PPG epoxy urethene primer. it does need a hardner but is good stuff, you can even roll it on. Its one of the only primers you can fill over without causing a reaction.

[Harleymike]

Originally Posted by yeah_yeah_na

https://goo.gl/images/TNReLC

I hope the link works.

I'm not sure if you dont want to use a sandblaster because of the mess, if thats the case, these things are great, I use them in my restoration shop on areas where mess is an issue.

The best product to use under a primer in dupont metal conditioner, its sold here in New zealand so i assume it is in the US as well. Follow the instructions and it works great. Coat over with PPG epoxy urethene primer. it does need a hardner but is good stuff, you can even roll it on. Its one of the only primers you can fill over without causing a reaction.

I have a small spot blaster like that. But can't do such a big area with it.
Ill take it down to bare metal and see how it looks. Im just worried about missing some small bit of rust I can't see and it comes back to haunt me later.

[yeah_yeah_na]

Originally Posted by Harleymike

I have a small spot blaster like that. But can't do such a big area with it.
Ill take it down to bare metal and see how it looks. Im just worried about missing some small bit of rust I can't see and it comes back to haunt me later.

Agree, nothing like doing a redo once its got top coat on it. I'm certainly a fan of removing rust rather than treating it, I only use dupont metal conditioner as a conditioner and last line of defence, not a remedy. Good luck, let me know if you need any tips, over 20 years in the restoration game and a 10yr guarantee on rust, I've learned a heap from my mistakes!!

[Richard2112]

Originally Posted by yeah_yeah_na

Agree, nothing like doing a redo once its got top coat on it. I'm certainly a fan of removing rust rather than treating it, I only use dupont metal conditioner as a conditioner and last line of defence, not a remedy. Good luck, let me know if you need any tips, over 20 years in the restoration game and a 10yr guarantee on rust, I've learned a heap from my mistakes!!

That's good practice. I don't rely on "rust conversion" products as much as I rely on rust removal. But once the elbow grease has been applied, I treat the metal for assurance.

I look for the active ingredients in metal treatment products and then try to isolate that specific ingredient. POR for example, relies on phosphoric acid to react with ferric oxide to create a phosphate finish.

These driveshafts were wire brushed then treated with Ospho. The trans case in the photos above was soaked in vinegar (acetic acid) which form iron acetate.

Acetic acid, even in dilute concentration is quite powerful, prolonged contact will cause your hands to burn. It is an extract from apples. If you cook apples in a seasoned iron skillet, expect to have to re-season the skillet as it will remove the seasoning and the skillet will be shiny.

[yeah_yeah_na]

Originally Posted by Richard2112

That's good practice. I don't rely on "rust conversion" products as much as I rely on rust removal. But once the elbow grease has been applied, I treat the metal for assurance.

I look for the active ingredients in metal treatment products and then try to isolate that specific ingredient. POR for example, relies on phosphoric acid to react with ferric oxide to create a phosphate finish.

These driveshafts were wire brushed then treated with Ospho. The trans case in the photos above was soaked in vinegar (acetic acid) which form iron acetate.

Acetic acid, even in dilute concentration is quite powerful, prolonged contact will cause your hands to burn. It is an extract from apples. If you cook apples in a seasoned iron skillet, expect to have to re-season the skillet as it will remove the seasoning and the skillet will be shiny.

Looks great, I should have paid more attention in science class!!

[Richard2112]

Originally Posted by yeah_yeah_na

Looks great, I should have paid more attention in science class!!

Thank you. Everything in that above picture has been scrubbed and treated with Ospho, then painted with bed liner. Everything that isn't rusted, that is. That bed liner paint is 3 years old. Admittedly, there aren't many miles on the truck and of course the bed liner will eventually wear (it's an iso-cyanate) but it is incredibly durable stuff.

The only problems I have experienced with using phosphoric acid is when I have become impatient and painted over it before it cured (finished reacting). The result was white spots appearing on the paint surface which was easily remedied by wiping the area with a cloth and repainting. The paint still had a good bond regardless.

Edit-the driveshafts aren't painted, just treated.

[Magnimike1]

I don't have a recommendation for your dash, but for other parts Youtube soaking rusty stuff in Molasses and water! It works great!

There is also a new attachment Eastwood and Northern tool sells to sandblast with. It connects on the end of the spray wand.. It is around $60. Use pool filter sand and a good power washer. I have used it on sheetmetal and no warping. The water keeps it cool.

[Richard2112]

Originally Posted by Magnimike1

I don't have a recommendation for your dash, but for other parts Youtube soaking rusty stuff in Molasses and water! It works great!

There is also a new attachment Eastwood and Northern tool sells to sandblast with. It connects on the end of the spray wand.. It is around $60. Use pool filter sand and a good power washer. I have used it on sheetmetal and no warping. The water keeps it cool.

The molasses process is due to the high purity carbon content facilitating the electron exchange between the metal and the oxygen. It's a chelating process which usually takes a significantly longer time to work. The speed of the reaction time can be increased by warming. The reaction is catalized by the presence of sulfur so if you use that method, it's best to get sulfonated molasses from a feed store rather than processed from a grocier. However the stuff you get from the grocery store still contains sulfur so it does work for rust removal, as does acetic acid but neither will provide a protective coating to the metal. Phosphoric acid will pickle the metal surface providing a protection layer. In any case, as temperature of the reactants goes up, the efficiency of the reactions increase rapidly.

[Harleymike]

Might use this stuff.
http://www.eastwood.com/ew-after-blast.html

[Richard2112]

Originally Posted by Harleymike

Might use this stuff.
http://www.eastwood.com/ew-after-blast.html

That's a good choice and a good price it seems. It's phosphoric acid (I don't know it's concentration) and will do the same thing Ospho does, but the product you link to is about half the cost of Ospho.

[raggedjim]

I usually pay $23 for a gallon of Ospho at a local hardware store.

Rg

[Richard2112]

Originally Posted by raggedjim

I usually pay $23 for a gallon of Ospho at a local hardware store.

Rg

Maybe I need to shop around some. I've seen it here for 9-12 @ qt.

[Short 3/4]

Originally Posted by Richard2112

Yeah do a small patch and check it before going full bore with chemicals. Sandblasting is great but leaves dust all over the garage/driveway. Can warp sheet metal.

Heinz cleaning vinegar works surprisingly well also. This trans case was soaked in it for two days. Came out nearly spotless.

I have also used vinegar, it's cheap , nontoxic and easy to find. I'm wondering what 'cleaning' vinegar is though. Does that just mean the cheap stuff in the big jug?
Just want to add that at least in my area near at the coast, I've found that old
cars will rust from the inside out due to the unpainted back sides of all the panels, so pay as much attention to the rust you don't see as the stuff you see. (I've learned this the hard way over the years).
Good luck with your project.

[Macdaddy1]

Clean with osho, vinegar or some acid based product then paint with POR-15 best stuff ever.

[dracko]

Any decent epoxy primer will outperform all of the single stage "rust encapsulator" paints like POR-15, KBS, Chassis Saver.....
If youre painting the whole truck with epoxy primer why mess with a single stage? just blast or sand it down, neutralize with some phosphoric acid and epoxy prime it. I believe SPI epoxy has phosphoric acid in it and they say not to use it prior to priming.