SkinnyG's '61 Apache

[Captainfab]

Do you realize that most people that have used the '88-'98 spindles have had issues with getting the correct camber?

[SkinnyG]

I do realize there will be issues with getting the correct camber. It's sitting at +1° right now. I do not realize others have done this.

I do, however, have a sawzall and a welder and I'm not afraid to use them.

What I AM especially excited about, is that the front track appears to be 66" wheel-mount-to-wheel-mount, which is a very nice fit to my 65" Ford 9" axle I want to run. I'll be using a more modern offset 18" wheel with more back spacing. I think.

[SkinnyG]

I just went out and took all the shims out (I had 3 per mount), which put me at -0.5° camber. I don't like the level of zero potential adjustment, but -0.5° is actually my goal for a street setup, so I'm good.

I intend to pie-cut the upper ball joint part of the control arm for better movement if I should pull the trigger and air ride this truck. That should give me a bit more negative camber.

With the shims out, the wms-wms width is still a decent 65.75" wide.

[SkinnyG]

I fabricated some height-adjustable "legs" which I welded to the frame, so I could set the frame absolutely level. Or, at least as level as a 1961 stick-welded truck chassis is going to let me.

I removed the four forward bed mounts because the 12" chop doesn't coincide with any of the bed frame placements (I'll be drilling a couple new holes), and I cut 12" out of the frame sides (vertical cut because that's all the room I have), measured from 7" behind the cab mount.



The trailing arm crossmember pieces were cut free, as were the forward legs of the X (I mis-measured though, and had to add some metal back. By my new measurements it looks like you'd need to cut out 11.25" here, but I might be wrong); Pythagorus failed me.



I tried to heat the X to bend it to where the stubs needed to line up, but it was taking forever and in the end I just sliced them with a cutting disc and welded them back up as needed.

8" was cut off the end of the frame.

Clamped it securely, checked for square, and tacked it thoroughly. I'll weld it up when my arms and shoulders are cooperating with me again.

[SkinnyG]

[SkinnyG]

[SkinnyG]

I inquired at two different machine shops about getting the 9" axles re-drilled to Chevy 5x5 bolt pattern and hub diameter.

One shop (in business for 75 years) had no idea if it could be done.

The other shop (45 years) said worst case (having to weld the old holes closed), it would be $300 per axle. That's $600CDN, or about $450US. I can get Moser to MAKE me new axles for that.....

[SkinnyG]

Prepped for fishplates this evening. Lots of grinding.

And I have a full box of 5" discs. I only have 4-1/2" grinders.....

[Notch1988]

Originally Posted by SkinnyG

I inquired at two different machine shops about getting the 9" axles re-drilled to Chevy 5x5 bolt pattern and hub diameter.

One shop (in business for 75 years) had no idea if it could be done.

The other shop (45 years) said worst case (having to weld the old holes closed), it would be $300 per axle. That's $600CDN, or about $450US. I can get Moser to MAKE me new axles for that.....

If you've got the access hole in the axle or they're 6 bolt you will be SOL for not having to weld. And like you said, cheaper to buy new.

[SkinnyG]

Okay. It's shortened. That was a LOT of work.















Also, my CPP 5" drop coils arrived, along with Summit Brand polyurethane bushings (re-labeled Energy Suspension? They have ES part numbers cast in the bushing....). Stock coil for comparison:



And I'm not sure what to do with this bed mount. If I attach it with the rear hole (right) and drill a new front hole (left), the bed might be too close to the cab. If I attach it with the front hole (left), the bed cross pieces might not line up. Having never done this before, I'm not sure.....

[SkinnyG]

I temporarily mounted the 9" on the trailing arms. The top of the diff at full bump is no higher than the top of the frame rails, so that's good. I also ordered new axles with 5 on 5" pattern.....

There does not seem to be a dimension for where the mounts are to go on the axle; consensus seems to be "place them where they work best."







I picked up some 3/16" plate after all. After a fair bit of sitting and staring, I think I've come up with a notch I'm pleased with, though I may mock it up in cardboard entirely to see what I think.

Sharp corners are potential stress risers, so this is intended to reduce stresses. It also maintains a 4" tall frame through the notch as well. The front and back of the axle <em>cut</em> will use part of the original frame. It makes sense in my head.







Going to sleep on it before I bring out the plasma cutter.

[Captainfab]

Are you going to run the 9" at that width? The pinion is a bit offset as it sits now. The trailing arm mounts need to be the same distance from the backing plate on both sides. Then of course you will need to determine the pinion angle. I do make trailing arm mounts sized specifically for the 9" axle tubes.

[SkinnyG]

I -think- am going to run the 9" at full 65" width. With the 18" Grand Cherokee steelies I have, it should fit fine. I -think-. This is also why I'm fine using the 88-98 spindes, and offsetting the balljoint outboard a tick - the front hub to hub is 65-3/4" right now (un-widened). I -think- it will all work out.

The trailing arms are merely placed to hold the axle to know where the tubes are to cut the notch. I will space them exactly once I know there exactly I want the trailing arms to sit with respect to the frame.

I made my own axle saddles at the same 12° of the HO32, but with the arm placement where I think I want the axle, the angle is wrong. Nothing a touch of grinding can't fix.

I will determine pinion angle once I have the engine and trans in and placed, so I can optimize and match the operating angles at the trans and diff. Then wait to finalize it when the whole thing is pretty much at ride weight, sitting on tires, and in need to a driveshaft (I've screwed up in the past ordering driveshafts when vehicles weren't fully complete).

As an aside, I really really appreciate your input on this build, and I really like all the brackets and adapters and things you make for the C10s. Thank you!

[SkinnyG]

Though, my math might be suspect. Let's see....

I plunked the Jeep wheels under the box, and under the front clip, and separated the rear wheels 65" hub-to-hub, and the front wheels 65-3/4" hub-to-hub.

The front rim is tucked in 4" from the outer fender edge, the rear 3-1/4" from the fender.

The rear rim inside-to-inside with the Jeep wheels and the 9" is 53", outside-to-outside is 70", a track width of 61.5". The factory HO32 and wheels are 54.5" inside, 67.5 outside, track width of 61". Cool.

The front rim inside-to-inside with the Jeep wheels is 53-3/4", outside-to-outside is 70-3/4", a track width of 62-1/4". Apparently (The original front is stored elsewhere right now), the factory front wheels are 56.6 inside, 69.6 outside, track width of 63.1".

So it looks like I do need to widen the front .425" on either side to match the factory track with these wheels, which I was kind of planning to do (though out-of-my-bum I was winging it with 3/8")

Or leave them; people pay money to have a narrower front for riding low.

[SkinnyG]

If they really offend me, I could band the wheels another 1.5" or 2" on the outside....

[SkinnyG]

Did a wack of yardwork yesterday, but got the sides of the notch plasma cut.

Interestingly, the smoke detector in the shop goes berzerk when I'm plasma cutting. So I took it off the wall and put it in a cupboard. Where it still goes berzerk! Makes you wonder what you're breathing, eh?? I started wearing a filtered mask a whole lot more. My lungs feel better. Did I mention this??

Today I did a wack of surface prep so I can weld things together tomorrow.

Had to remove the crossmember immediately behind the axle so the side plates will fit. It will be re-installed....

[SkinnyG]

I brought out the plasma cutter.

The notches are fab'd, but not burned in yet. Tomorrow they will be welded to the frame, then the frame braced, then the frame section cut out, then capped.

[Captainfab]

Yes wear a facemask or better yet a respirator. Plasma fumes and dust are not good to breathe.

[SkinnyG]

And angle grinding (there's something in those stones.....), and sanding, and wire-wheeling....

Take care of your lungs, boys!

[SkinnyG]

Notches welded, one is cut out, both are plated with one welded and cooling. Will weld up the other side tomorrow.

Will replace the crossmember and panhard mount too.

[SkinnyG]

Notchos!

[SkinnyG]

Removed the trans crossmember, which is welded to the frame in the 60-62 and holds the transmission by the bellhousing.



Also removed the bottom of the center "X", as it is now the last things hanging below the frame. When I cut the 3/16" plates for the notch, I also cut out a new plate to replace this.

[SkinnyG]

Bottom of the frame is now plated, there is now nothing hanging lower than the frame rails.



And here it sits at what theoretically is ride height. The rear is based on axle clearance with new CPP 5" drop coils, not what they will settle to (probably another inch). Once the whole things is all together, I will trim and adjust accordingly.



Crossmember is 5" off the ground - that's a half-inch higher than my '77 sits, and the frame rails at the front cab mount will sit at 6.5" (an inch higher than my '77) but the rockers will be a half-inch lower than my '77. And everything hangs below the frame on the '77, nothing will on the '61 (so theoretically I could go lower).

The '61 is using 2" spindles instead of the 3" on my '77 - something I really wanted was to get the control arms off the ground. The truck will look lower than the '77, but it should be easier to drive with less collateral damage.

[SkinnyG]

Oh, forgot to mention - I also flipped the trailing arm brackets to give back some anti-squat.

[SkinnyG]

I had to debate how to deal about wheels. The Jeep Grand Cherokee wheels that I have, have a fairly small center bore. I could bore the wheel out to fit the GMT400 brakes, or I could turn the hub down to fit the wheels.

I tried opening up the wheel center using some stacked hole saws and a wrist-breaker drill (I do not have a lathe than can spin an 18" wheel), but it went awful, and likely couldn't be balanced since the center was no longer true. That was a dumb idea. I don't know who thought that up, but what were they thinking?! I won't do that again (but I did correct the wheel center to be true again)



The cut-to-length 9" axle shafts I ordered from East Coast Gear Supply have a hub diameter that is smaller than the Jeep wheels, so I cut the front hubs down to match the axle shafts.

In theory, once these hub/rotors are no good, I'll machine the rotor off, and use Grand Cherokee SRT8 rotors for a big brake upgrade. It works in my head, dunno if it will work in real life.