Beginner Build with Ambition gets some air ride suspension.

[gigamanx]

Originally Posted by joedoh

the money you save on buying just lower balljoints and bushings isnt enough in my opinion for the time spent installing them. order loaded lower control arms instead, from moog problem solvers (the r series is ok too) it works out to a difference of 40 bucks a side vs just ordering bushings and balljoints. even if you flip a local guy with a press 20 bucks to do the switching for you, is it worth the 60 to degrease and paint and everything?

just 2 pennies of opinion, do whatever you want to.

my wife doesnt understand why I do my own front end work, I get so dirty and frequently angry at how stuck together everything is, but she doesnt really see that I am putting together new parts and that is easy and clean and satisfying.

I'm getting the feeling you're right just digging into this.i think stock lowers are about 80 bucks a side. I've probably spent 20 on degreaser so far lol. I started dehumping them today. Do you suggest I quit while I'm ahead and just order two new Lowers to cut up?

[joedoh]

yeeeep. as long as you get good ones you will not regret it


are you sure you need dehumped?

first, take the springs out, put everything back together, lay the truck "out" either by putting the wheels on and letting the jacks out till it is as low as it can get, or you can leave the truck in the air and jack the control arm up until the bottom of the tire is level with the running boards (use a 2x4 or long level clamped to the running board). if the tire gets there, you dont need dehumped. the reason I say to put it all back together and lay it out is because sometimes the weight will get you there.

if it doesnt, look carefully at the camber of the wheel. it may be extremely negative, and if you used drop spindles it would improve dramatically (and would probably lay out). if you dont want drop spindles look at the tie rods, it may be the tie rods hitting the frame, which would also be helped by drop spindles but you could also notch for them. if its not the tie rods it MAY need dehumped. but because the frame is above the running boards, that is really important, getting an s10 to lay out is really hard when you have to lay frame but getting CLOSE is almost always light years easier.

also, I have said this before in other threads but its always worth repeating. make sure you set the bag up to squish out the last breath of air just as the truck lays out. it should be around 3 - 3.5 inches of space between the cups. if you set it up too close, the truck wont lay out. and if you set it up too far apart, it will take more pressure to get the truck to start "moving", because that extra space is just air volume. I have seen guys lock an s10 front suspension up on 75psi and guys that needed 110 psi to get to ride height. its all about the cup spacing, they sell cups that are one size but its up to YOU to measure and cut them down if needed based on your suspension and ride height and tire diameter. I used to run all thread with nuts welded at 3.25 inches and big flat washers to estimate.

[gigamanx]

Originally Posted by joedoh

yeeeep. as long as you get good ones you will not regret it


are you sure you need dehumped?

first, take the springs out, put everything back together, lay the truck "out" either by putting the wheels on and letting the jacks out till it is as low as it can get, or you can leave the truck in the air and jack the control arm up until the bottom of the tire is level with the running boards (use a 2x4 or long level clamped to the running board). if the tire gets there, you dont need dehumped. the reason I say to put it all back together and lay it out is because sometimes the weight will get you there.

if it doesnt, look carefully at the camber of the wheel. it may be extremely negative, and if you used drop spindles it would improve dramatically (and would probably lay out). if you dont want drop spindles look at the tie rods, it may be the tie rods hitting the frame, which would also be helped by drop spindles but you could also notch for them. if its not the tie rods it MAY need dehumped. but because the frame is above the running boards, that is really important, getting an s10 to lay out is really hard when you have to lay frame but getting CLOSE is almost always light years easier.

also, I have said this before in other threads but its always worth repeating. make sure you set the bag up to squish out the last breath of air just as the truck lays out. it should be around 3 - 3.5 inches of space between the cups. if you set it up too close, the truck wont lay out. and if you set it up too far apart, it will take more pressure to get the truck to start "moving", because that extra space is just air volume. I have seen guys lock an s10 front suspension up on 75psi and guys that needed 110 psi to get to ride height. its all about the cup spacing, they sell cups that are one size but its up to YOU to measure and cut them down if needed based on your suspension and ride height and tire diameter. I used to run all thread with nuts welded at 3.25 inches and big flat washers to estimate.

Lots of really good info. Thank you!! I was mostly reading about bagging on S10 forums. So far I'm only about an inch from laying running boards in the rear without a notch, so I'm already in good shape

Does this mean I don't have to cut the spring pocket on the frame either? I'll get the arms ordered soon so I can start there.

As for cups and plates, I'm still confused as to what needs to go into the stock lowers and the spring pocket on the frame so the bags aren't rubbing on anything. I bought an eBay kit that came with an upper cup that seems to fit perfectly in the spring pocket without the bag rubbing. The lower plate is angled, so I lose a little height but it does setup the bag angle pretty nicely.

[gigamanx]

Took your suggestion. Bolted my stock lower and my ridetech upper together with the stock spindle. Loosely bolted.

I jacked the wheel up until the lower arm bump stop hit the frame. The running board lines up with the wheel rim. So I have about 3" of tire below that to figure out. I could get an inch out of removing the bump stop, but it looks like the entire bag would just about have to fit into the spring pocket. It sounds like your suggestion of a 2" drop spindle would get me to a perfect height where the rear is an inch off the ground, and the front with a 2" drop spindle should be about an inch off the ground

Here's some pics just in case I'm explaining poorly

[joedoh]

the bumpstop unbolts with a 14 (15?)mm, and will let the suspension collapse more than another inch because of the geometry of the arm. (and the bumpstop is more than an inch tall too). I take those bumpstops out even with 2" drop springs or they will jounce.

I havent ever used a cup kit on an s10 that wasnt upper and lower cups, yours is a lower plate, which I have seen guys just plate their lowers and run an upper cup when running 20" wheels and big tires to lay frame. not saying it wont work, I am just saying I have never used that style. you may need to cut the lower arm to clear your bag style, bolt the bag in and squish it down completely flat, no touching anywhere when compressed is the goal.


same with the upper pocket, no rubbing. what front bags are you running? the small firestones shouldnt need the spring pocket cut but everything else should need some trimming. there are things such as offset upper cups that push the bag away from the inner pocket, usually needed with big bags like RE/SS7s. those bags need a lot of spring pocket trimming.

the coil pocket is very deep, the stock coils are about 8 inches tall (compressed) when installed so if you take up an inch at the bottom, roughly 3 inches for a compressed bag, that still leaves a 4" tall upper cup, which it looks like you have.

it may feel like you are swimming in mud but keep your eye on the hard targets, get the tire where you want it when laid out, and make sure there is only a squished bag between upper cup and lower arm in your case.

since there is no "one size fits all" cup length for your particular "layed out height/tire size" you may have to put in, measure, take out, trim, put in, measure, take out, trim, etc several times until it fits exactly. over trimming the cup leaves extra volume in the bag and wastes lift with extra pressure.

a 2" drop spindle coupled with taking out the bumpstop (not dehumping) would put the running boards on the ground quite firmly, in my opinion.

[gigamanx]

Originally Posted by joedoh

the bumpstop unbolts with a 14 (15?)mm, and will let the suspension collapse more than another inch because of the geometry of the arm. (and the bumpstop is more than an inch tall too). I take those bumpstops out even with 2" drop springs or they will jounce.

I havent ever used a cup kit on an s10 that wasnt upper and lower cups, yours is a lower plate, which I have seen guys just plate their lowers and run an upper cup when running 20" wheels and big tires to lay frame. not saying it wont work, I am just saying I have never used that style. you may need to cut the lower arm to clear your bag style, bolt the bag in and squish it down completely flat, no touching anywhere when compressed is the goal.


same with the upper pocket, no rubbing. what front bags are you running? the small firestones shouldnt need the spring pocket cut but everything else should need some trimming. there are things such as offset upper cups that push the bag away from the inner pocket, usually needed with big bags like RE/SS7s. those bags need a lot of spring pocket trimming.

the coil pocket is very deep, the stock coils are about 8 inches tall (compressed) when installed so if you take up an inch at the bottom, roughly 3 inches for a compressed bag, that still leaves a 4" tall upper cup, which it looks like you have.

it may feel like you are swimming in mud but keep your eye on the hard targets, get the tire where you want it when laid out, and make sure there is only a squished bag between upper cup and lower arm in your case.

since there is no "one size fits all" cup length for your particular "layed out height/tire size" you may have to put in, measure, take out, trim, put in, measure, take out, trim, etc several times until it fits exactly. over trimming the cup leaves extra volume in the bag and wastes lift with extra pressure.

a 2" drop spindle coupled with taking out the bumpstop (not dehumping) would put the running boards on the ground quite firmly, in my opinion.

Awesome info! ok, so one step at a time for me then.

Will take the bumpstop out. Didn't even think of geometry since the bump stop is further up the arm. I may get my 2" out just doing that.

I'm going to order cups. My issue with the plate I got is that its a weld in piece. It leaves a cavity under the plate for dirt and crap to end up in there. With cups, at least it can all be switched out and replaced if ever needed.

I'll keep y'all posted on how it goes!

[gigamanx]

Update to end the day. Ordered some lower arms and removed the bump stop while testing. I am able to get it down to just the tread of the tire. I'm very happy with that since I think the weight of the car will squish the tire enough that I'll be sub 1" from the ground laid out. Now to figure out how to fit the spring up in that pocket since I see daylight through about an inch opening between the lower and the stock spring pocket haha. I'll start by cutting the spring pocket and see where things are rubbing. I read somewhere that if I can work out one side, I can create a cardboard template and just transfer it to the otherside so they are symmetrical. Not that anyone will ever notice.

[joedoh]

I bet you are right on the squish. the bag will fit inside the pocket so you dont need to really carve the opening out unless you are using big bags that balloon a lot. usually just cutting the lip (dont forget to grind down that one in the back of the pocket!) is enough. also, dont leave angled corners where you cut, make a smooth radius, an angle corner will be a stress point.

good luck!

[gigamanx]

If it makes a difference, I checked my front bags. They are Firestone RideRite 224c bags. Looks like they are 2600lb equivalent and max diameter is 7.5". 3" minimum and 9" maximum height.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by gigamanx

If it makes a difference, I checked my front bags. They are Firestone RideRite 224c bags. Looks like they are 2600lb equivalent and max diameter is 7.5". 3" minimum and 9" maximum height.

yeah you will need to trim a bit for them, they balloon when inflated. good bags for the front though.


here is a bit of interesting history: there is no such thing as a "2600 lb bag". sure thats what everyone calls it, but the reason why is, back in the mid 90s when airbags were getting popular, a company called Aim Industries was one of the first to mainstream "kits", but they had a hard time getting people to understand that a firestone 255c was actually smaller than a firestone 224c. both double convoluted, similar load, but the volume of the 224c was larger and therefore had a lower spring rate, which rode better, if you could get them to fit (believe it or not S10s were not popular at all in the mid to late 90s) so they started marketing them as "2500 lb" and "2600 lb" airbags. it stuck, even though the load specs are higher than that, and every bag company from then on started listing them in those terms. even slam specialties, the re5 is a 2500 lb comparison, the re6 a 2600 lb... and so on.

just a bit of history.

[gigamanx]

Originally Posted by joedoh

yeah you will need to trim a bit for them, they balloon when inflated. good bags for the front though.


here is a bit of interesting history: there is no such thing as a "2600 lb bag". sure thats what everyone calls it, but the reason why is, back in the mid 90s when airbags were getting popular, a company called Aim Industries was one of the first to mainstream "kits", but they had a hard time getting people to understand that a firestone 255c was actually smaller than a firestone 224c. both double convoluted, similar load, but the volume of the 224c was larger and therefore had a lower spring rate, which rode better, if you could get them to fit (believe it or not S10s were not popular at all in the mid to late 90s) so they started marketing them as "2500 lb" and "2600 lb" airbags. it stuck, even though the load specs are higher than that, and every bag company from then on started listing them in those terms. even slam specialties, the re5 is a 2500 lb comparison, the re6 a 2600 lb... and so on.

just a bit of history.

That is pretty cool history! I had no idea. I had some slam 6 bags and replaced them based on the recommendation of this forum to go for the 2600lb bags. Found a set locally for I think $90 for the pair. I'll keep playing the cup I have and see if I can find lower cups also. Not really sure how tall I need the lower cups if I'm not dehumping and it also seems lower cups need to be welded in also. I thought they were bolt in.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by gigamanx

That is pretty cool history! I had no idea. I had some slam 6 bags and replaced them based on the recommendation of this forum to go for the 2600lb bags. Found a set locally for I think $90 for the pair. I'll keep playing the cup I have and see if I can find lower cups also. Not really sure how tall I need the lower cups if I'm not dehumping and it also seems lower cups need to be welded in also. I thought they were bolt in.

I like slams. the best riding truck I ever had was RE7 fronts and ART 3 link rear with sleeve bags on an S10 frame. firestones are good too, the only thing is that they balloon (expand diameter) when aired up so you have to be REALLY careful to be clear. slams and some others dont balloon. the air lift dominators and (L)Aim denominators balloon like a bouncy castle.

the upper cups will bolt in just for ease of install, but the weight of the truck will locate the lower cups, you shouldnt need to weld them in. I used to use neumatics (I think they closed) and they were bolt in. I think I have a set of bolt in lowers actually, that got replaced when I went to MMW arms.

[gigamanx]

First side is cut. I have 9" of clearance front to back and cut 3" up. All seems to fit nicely, but I have just noticed there is no where to have the air line exit the upper cup. Suggestions on that one?


As for the lower section, the plates are too low so I need cups. My measurement suggests I need at least a 1.5" tall cup so the bag clears the humps in the lower control arm. Does that sound about right?

[joedoh]

see that hole in the frame behind the pocket? there is also another hole on the top of the frame a little further back, in case your shock relocator end up on the side there. so running the airline through the frame is all right.

everything looks ok. as long as you have it measured right you should be fine.

[gigamanx]

Found the aforementioned hole. I decided to cut up some fuel line and create some grommets around the holes. I also did the same for the hole that goes into the upper cup. Progress has been slow this week. Seems everything is fighting me a little with fitment. Today I tried to install the "bolt in" RideTech shock relocator brackets. Turns out they are not bolt in. Drilled and taped some holes so I'm off to the hardware store again tomorrow to get some M8 1.25 bolts.

Waiting on lower control arm to arrive, lower bag cups, 3/4" ptc air connectors for the front bags.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by gigamanx

3/4" ptc air connectors for the front bags.

is that a typo? the firestone 224c has a 1/2" port in the top


looks good!

[gigamanx]

Pretty successful day today. One side is just about back together. I've spent a few weeks crouched under the fender now. Back is definitely feeling it! I'd say the front end is more difficult than the back because it requires some engineering. I had to figure out cups, shock placement and hangers, my accuair e-level switch, then making sure it all had clearance. After bolting it all back together I was hitting one bag on the corner of the spring pocket. A little nip and cut and we're in good shape. Tomorrow I'll finish up the drivers side so I can test the bags.



Offset the brackets when I welded them to get a little more distance from the frame.
20190824_142451 by giga manx, on Flickr

Speedway shock Mount bolts
20190824_170822 by giga manx, on Flickr

Hard parts done!
20190824_183648 by giga manx, on Flickr

Posting extra pics cause I was surprised how few of them I could find online for where the shock hanger goes, what the spring pockets look like, etc. Hope it helps someone else doing an s10 bagged setup

[gigamanx]

First chance to get the wheels on. He's nice and low but couldn't quite get on the floor. Couple of tweaks to make... The rear bags only compress to 8.5" so I think I need spacer cups to get that down. That way I can use more of the bag range for the firestone 9000rear sleeve bags. As for the front, got a leak on the drivers side and aired out I am sitting on the bag cups with about an inch and a half from the running boards to the floor. Guess who is ordering 2" lowering spindles haha.
20190825_185712 by giga manx, on Flickr


Aired out..plenty of bag left
20190825_185738 by giga manx, on Flickr

[joedoh]

those rear shocks on the air bar. sheesh. I think we measured them once and they only had like 4 inches of travel. air ride tech did a great job of spec'ing the best riding rear bags possible for a bag-over-axle setup but the shocks make it have 4 inches of travel. like I said, I moved the rear shock mounts and used a shock with something like 9-10" of travel.

looking good!

[gigamanx]

Last post my friends just to catch everyone up. "Will" is up and driving again and the air ride is suuuuper smooth compared to the stock leaf springs. Very happy with everything so far and just dialing in my experience with air bags.

The last big push was adding 2" spacers to the rear bags which gave me plenty of room to go over obstacles. I still want to add limiting straps of some kind because I noticed if I air up to 11" and the rear axle pivots one way or the other, I could potentially stretch one bag way more than the 12" maximum.


Mostly just running lines and getting the e-level setup. Everything airs up and down nicely. Looks DAMN cool in a parking lot too!







That ends the build! I'm off to drive and win some awards

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by gigamanx

looks great!


one thing I didnt remember until I saw the picture of the front end torn apart, make sure the sway bar isnt bottoming out and holding you up. in the past with stock lowers and stock spindles I have needed to cut the sway bar end link "tube" down because the sway bar would hit the frame and bottom out.