Project 30 Be Low

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

So I was originally thinking that I was going to build my own cross member and possibly upper and lower control arms but as I was looking into the engineering and time to construct the components I was not saving much money and was way too long for my time line.

So now I am 90% sure it will be a porter built drop member and PB control arms. The reason I went with the drop member is to keep the spindles from too much camber when aired all the way down. I wanted the suspension geometry to be correct all the way through the travel arc. Using a OEM cross member there is no way to drop it as low as I want to go and not have excessive camber tilt.

My target is not to lay frame but to be 1" off the ground completely aired out.

I don't have much exposure to the pre-Square HD truck chassis. What is the main frame rail height under the cab?

If it's the same as the Squares (6" height), a 1.5" x-member notch/pancake w/3" spindles put my frame rails & x-member gusset bars on the ground @ the same time when completely aired out (PB 1" forward lowers + modified stock uppers w/the stock GM steering placement). Ride height @ the rails is 4.5 -5" @ front cab mount (29.5F/31.5R).

I would of guessed the full PB set-up would put the rails on the ground before mine. What height tires ?

[Mike Bradbury]

One of my parameters for Nate was that it NOT lay frame. I do not want it on the ground. This will be a working truck AND a show truck. It is going to be a driver not a trailer queen. Laying frame is great for shows to make a statement but so catastrophically dangerous on the road, especially the freeway at 70 MPH. I have seen enough rods meet their end when a bag or a line ruptures and the frame contacts the pavement and the vehicle is completely out of control.

Completely aired out, I want it to be 1" off the ground. This is a 1 ton frame so it is big and beefy at 7.5" .187" wall thickness. I really wanted to build my own or modify original but I also hate the camber lean when aired out and dropping that low there will be some lean to it with the OEM member. My plan this weekend is to remove the coil springs and drop it as low as it can go and measure geometries to get a better idea if the drop member is the way to go. Additionally a drop member will allow me to drop as low as a want without pinching the ball joints or taxing articulation geometries. I will weld in a bump stop to make sure it stops above the ground and my plan is that the control arms will not be maxed out in either direction.

I appreciate fore thought and carefully planning with all the mechanics of custom vehicles. Having a impatient approach or "good enough" attitude looses the shine with me. Some guys are okay with that approach and that is fine because it is their ride. Typically the trucks that have a crowd gathered around at the shows are the ones that have that well thought out, well planned, well designed, well executed build characteristics that has people attracted to it.
My drive toward excellence is not for personal accolades but rather to build a really cool truck that is a challenge for me and also an inspiration for others.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

One of my parameters for Nate was that it NOT lay frame. I do not want it on the ground. This will be a working truck AND a show truck. It is going to be a driver not a trailer queen. Laying frame is great for shows to make a statement but so catastrophically dangerous on the road, especially the freeway at 70 MPH. I have seen enough rods meet their end when a bag or a line ruptures and the frame contacts the pavement and the vehicle is completely out of control.

Completely aired out, I want it to be 1" off the ground. This is a 1 ton frame so it is big and beefy at 7.5" .187" wall thickness. I really wanted to build my own or modify original but I also hate the camber lean when aired out and dropping that low there will be some lean to it with the OEM member. My plan this weekend is to remove the coil springs and drop it as low as it can go and measure geometries to get a better idea if the drop member is the way to go. Additionally a drop member will allow me to drop as low as a want without pinching the ball joints or taxing articulation geometries. I will weld in a bump stop to make sure it stops above the ground and my plan is that the control arms will not be maxed out in either direction.

I appreciate fore thought and carefully planning with all the mechanics of custom vehicles. Having a impatient approach or "good enough" attitude looses the shine with me. Some guys are okay with that approach and that is fine because it is their ride. Typically the trucks that have a crowd gathered around at the shows are the ones that have that well thought out, well planned, well designed, well executed build characteristics that has people attracted to it.
My drive toward excellence is not for personal accolades but rather to build a really cool truck that is a challenge for me and also an inspiration for others.

You definitely don't have to sell your logic to me. I've seen some scary stuff & would be considered a killjoy when it comes to erring on the side of caution. THE LAST THING I would want to happen is for someone to be hurt because my custom vehicle failed & was the cause of an accident.

My dually can be returned to it's OE configuration in just a couple of hours up front (coils & OE arms or the PB arms). It was built because of the same logic you're sharing. I knew one day it would be likely that I would no longer use air for the front. I have the stock arms but Mr. P makes those nifty coil spring seats for his arms so I can go that route as well if desired.

The rear will stay bagged/4-bar because of the improved ride quality empty or loaded. It has GM bump stops to stop travel @ 4". Ride height is @ ~3" clearance. They are adjustable for height as well.

If it loses a bag/line out back, the frame doesn't touch.
All lines are routed within the rails & routed away from heat.
The front lines to the bags has them routed within the rails & then through the center of the x-member away from heat.
Anywhere the bundled group are nearest to a heat source they're covered in DEI heat shielding as well.
Anywhere a single airline is near a metal edge, it is shielded in zip-tied rubber hose.
Anywhere a bundled group are near a metal edge, they were shielded in zip-tied rubber hose.

[Mike Bradbury]

I have a really cool hydraulic flaring tool and I plan on running all hard lines to braided stainless. No plastic on this rig.

[rickcdewitt]

The idea is to just move the arms up in relation to the frame? Or are they going to be more equal in length?to combat camber swing

[Mike Bradbury]

The Porter Built arms have some corrected geometries specific for lowering the vehicle, I am not positive if the length of the upper has increased but the idea is to lower the vehicle to a desired ride height via the dropped spindle and the dropped cross member so that the control arms are basically the same position as stock. This way there is adequate swing both up and down before it starts affecting steering and alignment. If I can get it as low as I want with the addition of a drop member then the articulation of the upper control arm will not start drawing in the upper ball joint as it travels through its arc by the time it hits the bumps.

Watch the attached video, Nate has his product on Nacho. Notice how when he airs down to extremely low his spindles stay mostly vertical. Since it is a rotating member there is always going to be some inward movement of the spindles but getting the geometry correct helps the ride quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bwqlwiZOyw

[Mike Bradbury]

So today I removed the coil springs and lowered it down to the bump stops to see what the frame height would be off the ground. On the bumps it’s still 10 inches off the ground with stock crossmember. So if my math is correct a 2 1/2 inch drop spindle and an inch and a half cut out of the stock crossmember it’s only gonna get me down to about 6 inches of frame off the ground. Adding a drop ‘Member is going to get me a heck of a lot closer to the ground.

[SCOTI]

I believe all HD spindles (3/4 & 1-ton) are 3" spindles. I don't recall ever seeing a 2" or 2.5" option.

The difference between the DM vs a notched x-member should be ~1.5" depending on how much the x-member is actually notched.

[Mike Bradbury]

I think we have had this conversation before The spindles I found from Western Chassis are 2.5" Since I am going to be putting PB components on maybe the square body 3" drop spindles will fit nicely. Western Chassis/POL are the ones that Nate recommended, plus the steering arm mounts from underneath the arm versus OEM mounts on top which works well with the PB system. I am not sure what the 3" version geometries are?

My wheel/tire combo will also net an additional 1" drop. currently the tires are 31.5" and the new ones will be 29.5".

[tutone]

One of my parameters for Nate was that it NOT lay frame. I do not want it on the ground. This will be a working truck AND a show truck. It is going to be a driver not a trailer queen.
(Exerpt from a previous post)

Perfect logic there, we were at the rod run in Pigeon Forge and a 62 chevy c10 was in the street with of course, "air ride problems". (most likely a blown line. The cops, wrecker guy, owner and several bystanders were busy trying to figure out how to get it up off the ground enough to tow or load it. I guess somebody finally did, but what a dilema that could have been avoided. Lucky for him , he was in slow stop and go traffic.

[Mike Bradbury]

Yeah I am going to build the lines like they were brake lines. The process takes a lot longer but sleeping at night is more important to me than forever wondering if the line integrity is compromised.

[Mike Bradbury]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

I believe all HD spindles (3/4 & 1-ton) are 3" spindles. I don't recall ever seeing a 2" or 2.5" option.

The difference between the DM vs a notched x-member should be ~1.5" depending on how much the x-member is actually notched.

So I did some more math today and IF I can find the 3" drop spindles that work with the PB system then I will have:
3" spindle
3" crossmember
1" wheel/tire
7" total
Plus the fact that the control arms are corrected geometry they can drop more before camber is affected. With my truck on the bumps, the upper control arms are not that far off from horizontal and the ball joints are really starting to articulate the bottom control arms seem fine but the tops are starting to reach their working perameters.
The improved geometries of the PB arms allow them to articulate way past the horizontal plane and not pinch the ball joints. :LOL because nobody like it when their balls get pinched. Sorry I had to say it

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

I think we have had this conversation before The spindles I found from Western Chassis are 2.5" Since I am going to be putting PB components on maybe the square body 3" drop spindles will fit nicely. Western Chassis/POL are the ones that Nate recommended, plus the steering arm mounts from underneath the arm versus OEM mounts on top which works well with the PB system. I am not sure what the 3" version geometries are?

My wheel/tire combo will also net an additional 1" drop. currently the tires are 31.5" and the new ones will be 29.5".

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

So I did some more math today and IF I can find the 3" drop spindles that work with the PB system then I will have:
3" spindle
3" crossmember
1" wheel/tire
7" total
Plus the fact that the control arms are corrected geometry they can drop more before camber is affected. With my truck on the bumps, the upper control arms are not that far off from horizontal and the ball joints are really starting to articulate the bottom control arms seem fine but the tops are starting to reach their working perameters.
The improved geometries of the PB arms allow them to articulate way past the horizontal plane and not pinch the ball joints. :LOL because nobody like it when their balls get pinched. Sorry I had to say it

I meant to follow-up on this last week. After you responded, I remembered the conversation regarding this. I went back to try & find it but couldn't in the brief amount of time spent looking & forgot about it after...

[Mike Bradbury]

It was in the pre build thread to this one, "dropping a C30 flatbed"

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

It was in the pre build thread to this one, "dropping a C30 flatbed"

I did some digging & looked through the 'suspension' forum recent posts w/nothing. Your other posts were the next logical option once I had opportunity.

Thanks for speeding that effort up

[D-n-Tyke]

Awesome to see you are making progress on her.

[Mike Bradbury]

Just in case anyone was wondering if an LS swap is going to lighten the truck any? I pulled out a 402 ci with a turbo 400 tranny and I am going to swap in a 6.0 LS (LQ9) with a 4L80E trans. The modern engine with the iron block is super heavy still. In the process of strapping, lifting, twisting, pulling, moving, adjusting, pulling some more, I forgot to close the nut on one of the quick links. Well you can see what happened. Glad I caught this before I navigated the cherry picker over the concrete floor four feet in the air.

[68bowtie]

Close call!

[Mike Bradbury]

So for my day job I am a facilities manager at a large local church which means I kind of have to have a working knowledge of all the systems on the campus in order to keep the facilities up and running.

There are two times in the year that churches get pretty busy, Christmas and Easter. Compounded on this we are in the middle of several renovations on the church campus. This summer we are planning to do a courtyard redevelopment project which will entail jackhammering up about 200 yards of concrete, designing and rerouting irrigation, electrical, and sewer lines for the new proposed space. Working with the city on permits and get a new grading plan for the courtyard, all while keeping the church up and running.

I have worked at this church for 28 years of my life and I have wanted to update this courtyard for the last two decades but financing a project of this scope takes some saving and a fair amount of donations. With 175,000 ft.² of building space under roof the campus sits on 10 acres and the courtyard itself is quite sizable.

I’ve been working the last week on a model for the congregation to get a practical look at the plans we have for this summer. a fair amount of this will be 3D modeled on the computer but getting a working idea of proposed ideas that we can move around on the board fairly easily prior to the computer part is beneficial and reduces the architect man hours.

I thought I would share a bit of what I do during the day with you guys since I haven’t had time to post progress on the truck.

[D-n-Tyke]

That is a very impressive model. Going to be cool for you to see it come to life after building the model first yourself.

[Mike Bradbury]

Thanks Dan, Most what the model is for is the sun and it’s trajectory across the sky. Knowing where to put trees and shade structures to be most effective could save thousands down the road.

[Mike Bradbury]

I started taking the 6.0 LS apart today. I bought the engine/transmission as a unit out of the same donor truck. The engine has 163,000 miles on it so before I install it, both are going to get complete rebuilds.

I have to say that from the initial tear down the engine still looks pretty good. There was no water in the oil, the plugs looked great, none of the gaskets look burned or leaking.

[72 tigger]

Like your project and the model of the church courtyard!

[Mike Bradbury]

Thanks Tigger

Wow has it been since May that I updated this thread? ugh life has gotten so busy. I struggle to find the time to get out and work on the truck.

I am still designing it and planning the theme of the truck and all of the moving parts of the dump bed and suspension. Lots to think about before I start cutting.

My Dad passed away in June and the whole process was an enormous task. We had been working on a 1929 Roadster pick up and now it is mine to finish. It is in the middle of a complete frame off and rebuild. Lots to think about before I start cutting.

My mom had a fender bender and the insurance company totaled the car for a bent hood and cracked grill. We took the money and got it all back together for a fraction of the cost. There was a lot to think about before I started cutting.

I hope to be back on track after January.

[72 tigger]

Wow, sorry about your dad, that’s tough. Praying 2023 goes better