Me & My '59 Apache - The Story Begins

[B52bobardier1]

Hello,

I have been looking for an Apache for a long time and actually joined this site many years ago, back in 2017. This red truck fell into my lap for a very good price and it actually runs and I drove it forty miles or so home last Tuesday. This truck had to be sold to make space in the previous owners garage for his second early 60's Chevy Impala. This truck sits on a '79 C-10 frame with that donor vehicle's 350 engine and TH350 transmission. And maybe, its '79 wiring harness. It also has the 79 C-10 tilt steering column but the horn does not work. The PO put maybe 2000 miles on it since his ownership began back in 2002 and my guess is not 65,568 miles on the odometer but probably 165,568. Not 265,568 but nobody will ever know for sure.

As was not the situation with my Catalina or El Camino, the metal work and body work has already been done. This truck will never see salt on a winter road here in Louisiana and only very rarely will it see any rain.

As always with my LS swapped Catalina convertible and an El Camino, I keep a list of things to do and this Apache already has a to-do list. The 10SI alternator voltage regulator failed and I think it might have toasted the HEI distributor ignition module. The 350 starts easily, idles well but going down the road, the engine wants to not accelerate well - its hesitant to rev up. Also, with paint on the harmonic balancer stripe, I can't see the paint with my old school strobe timing light. The timing chain cover is missing the timing indicator thingy that is welded onto the cover. Cylinder 7 also does not fire with the timing light. I really need to get that #7 spark plug out and see what it looks like. The Edelbrock 4-barrel carb on an Edelbrock intake manifold carb choke plate opens fully so its not starved for air and the air cleaner is new.

The steering gear box is a little loose and I will eventually tighten up the lash in it very slightly. I'm also in the market for chrome pieces for the front of this truck to give all of that red paint some contrast.

As I make progress, I will chime in here with a report.

Rick

[dsraven]

nice looking truck. I think a little chrome will really pop on that color.
if the truck has sat for a little bit i recommend to drain the fuel and replace it with some fresh stuff, replace any fuel filters, check for any fuel line issues that would restrict flow, check that the tank has a sufficient vent (prolly the cap if it ihas a stock tank behind the seat), then, if you wanna see what the cylinders are doing individually at the start of your engine tune up, pull the plugs and check the condition of each. take some pics for future reference, then put them back in, or replace them, add a can or 2 of seafoam motor treatment to the fuel and take it for a drive. warm it up and then drive it hard to allow the fuel treatment to do it's job, loosening up any carbon etc and flushing through any condensation that may have been hiding in the system. accelerate heavily when you can do so safely, go down some long hills, if possible, with your foot off the gas so that the engine has to hold you back, or gear down if it's and auto, to simulate that effect of high vacuum in the cylinders. keep an eye on the tailpipe at the bottom of the hill when your foot goes back on the gas pedal. a big puff of smoke at that point would mean one of several things, valve seals, rings etc
if you don't have a history on the engine it may be to your advantage to do a complete work up on the engine so you have a baseline. start with a vacuum check to see what you have but also ensure to rev the engine and hold it at a moderate rpm while watching the vacuum gauge. if the gauge slowly drops off you may have a restricted exhaust system to deal with as well. do compression tests- wet and dry, leak down test, oil pressure cold and hot, valve lash adjustment, distributor check for wear and possibly a recurve or at least checks of base and max timing, check/replace any vacuum lines-including the brake booster line and check valve, spark plug checks as you remove them to see how each cylinder has been burning-lean or rich etc. fuel pump pressure and flow test, timing chain lash check, dizzy gear lash check, intake manifold bolt torque check etc. repair/replace any deficiencies as you find them, then replace the tune up parts as usual, plugs, plug wires, dizzy cap and rotor (other HEI related dizzy parts as required, coil, module, pick up coil, weights, springs, shaft bushings or whatever) pcv valve, etc. you may want to pull the lid off the carb and check out what may be collected in the bottom of the float bowl and this will also give you the opportunity to check the basic condition of things there as well as check the throttle shaft bushings for wear. sometimes those throttle shafts are pretty far gone and the carb is impossible to adjust since the worn shafts affect the position of the butterfly valves after each blip of the throttle. it is amazing how a dizzy recurve and a good carb tune, along with a tune up, can really wake up a sluggish engine. post the results of your findings as you go, you have us curious how things will turn out and what you find.

[B52bobardier1]

Hello Dennis,

All great advice above and I thank you. A good many of your suggestions are already on my maintenance to-do list but I can add a few more. The stamped code on the passenger front is "V0601TFD" which leads me to either a 1979 or a 1982, Flint-produced engine, for a C-10 truck with a four barrel carburetor.

I am very concerned about the age of the fuel and the accuracy of the gauge. It is the original tank which I think is a seventeen gallon capacity. That old fuel would already be siphoned out if I could find my vacuum bulb siphon but I will buy another one soon. My plan is to pour a tad bit over four gallons of fresh no ethanol fuel in and then see how close the gauge is to a quarter of a tank.

I'm indifferent about Seafoam but really like Chevron Techron, BG Products 44K Platinum and I'm about to try some Royal Purple Max Clean on this four gallons of Apache fuel that is about to go in. The LS engines in my Catalina and El Camino do very well on the Techron and the 44K stuff to keep the injectors clean. I also got a free, derelict Rochester Q-Jet carb from the PO and its shafts are still tightly fitting in the baseplate. I will open it up and see how bad it is.

Yes, spark plugs are next to replace and then the ignition module if it still needs it. The holes for the exterior mirrors are covered with a bit of body filler but I'm hoping that I can take a door panel off and find the holes from the backside to pop through the filler. I really want those mirrors back on and the PO gave me a set for free.

The timing light not illuminating the white painted line on the harmonic balancer has me perplexed. The engine seems to be timed correctly but my thinking is that the ignition module has partially failed which triggers the light in error. But really, I'm stumped here.

And oddly, the tires have no DOT date code on the front or back sides. They don't appear to be dry rotted but I need to ask the PO how old they are.

So much to do here with this truck. I still have quite a bit of work on my Catalina to get it road worthy. It is recently able to move under its own power but needs an exhaust system and the interior done, then a new convertible top laid on. Mercifully, the top motor, hydraulics, lines and wiring all work but I needed to put in a new top electrical switch.

Rick

[6DoF]

sharp truck!

driving it while you dial it in for the win.

[dsraven]

it may be an idea to include an "outside the cab" fuel tank in your plans for the truck, at some point. having a big load of fuel right behind your seat isn't the best plan. it also vents right outside the door at the fuel filler cap. plus you gain some space behind the seat and possibly the seat can slide back a little further for more leg room if needed.
if the engine is a stock one from the 79-81 era then it likely isn't gonna be a huge powerhouse as those years were smog engines. you never know what was done to it over the years though, unless you have some documented history on it. that said, there are lots of options for a 350 chev engine that will boost the power in whatever rpm range you decide you want to have that power. another option would be to source a rebuilt engine you want and then swap it in. sell the good running engine that is currently in the truck once your new engine is up and running as you want it.
meanwhile, getting a baseline engine condition and then working with what you have to get the best running engine possible should be relatively straight forward, if you have the tools to get it done. a manual oil pressure gauge, compression tester, vacuum gauge, etc. get your baseline readings and chart them. then start changing things for the better.
as a side, i have used the seafoam product, as well as many other fuel cleaning products, and i am a firm believer in it. on my own personal truck, an 03 avalanche with a 5.3l engine at the time, i used seafoam at every oil change. one day I needed to pull the intake to replace the knock sensors located under it. when I looked down into the intake runners they were like brand new clean. the injectors were as clean as could be also. no carbon build up on the back sides of the intake valves, etc etc. as a lic. mechanic working on the side in my own garage (pro firefighter full time) I would get trouble calls from clients with engine running problems. my first fix, over the phone, would be to advise seafoam in the fuel and then run it like you stole it. usually they would call back and say it was like night and day difference. the tune up could be done a little later at their convenience, plus, the carbon would be cleaned up a little by the time it got to the shop for the work.
just my view but a good fuel cleaner that you trust would be a great start to try and fix the problem, as well as fresh fuel and ensuring it is running on all 8. run a tank of concentrated cleaner through the system and then do the tune up. after you get it running on all cylinders.

[dsraven]

here are a few pics of the seafoam treatment on my personal truck back in the day. 2016 vintage

[leegreen]

timing light not lighting up the timing mark: did you disconnect vacuum advance? at idle the timing mark will be 15-20 degrees ahead of TDC mark with vacuum hooked up.

Or your damper was changed for one with the mark on the other side - might explain the lack of timing pointer too.

Your going to want to add some kind of TDC reference mark on the timing cover to match the damper or the timing light is not of any use. You might as well ear tune it, then drive and adjust until it barely does not ping when you drive hard up a hill.

[B52bobardier1]

Hello,

Ah, OK. It has been a while since I had to use a timing light and disconnecting the vacuum advance was buried deep in my memory. I will definitely follow your advice and I can almost imagine where the missing indicator tab should be.

I will also know more when I remove the distributor cap to see if the weights are stuck. The engine hesitancy to accelerate also seems like a lack of centrifugal advance and its not pinging at all for now.

Rick

[dsraven]

not sure what carb you have or the configuration of the accelerator squirt nozzle, but the fuel stream from the squirter should be directed at the throttle plates where the edge of the plate starts to seperate from the venturi bore. that way the fuel is being easily drawn into the air flow to richen the mixture upon throttle opening.
one more thing to add to the list of checks. lol.

[dsraven]

if your timing marks have been deleted you can make your own or get some new brackets from a wrecker. then remove spark plug number one and find top dead center so you can verify that the marks are where they should be. clean off the vibe damper timing groove area and paint it if possible. a dark color. when dry use a light color paint or a paint pen to put paint in the groove. then allow to sit a sec or 2 befor wiping the residue off the dark painted area. wipe across the groove so paint stays in the grovve. that allows the groove to stick out like a sore thumb when the timing light beam hits it. do the same for the bracket marker and possibly highlight the degree mark where you would like to have your base timing set

[B52bobardier1]

Hello Dennis,

So many things to do on this truck but your advice is all good and it'll go on the list. It does seem to have good base timing but probably no spark advance and my guess is a failing HEI ignition module. I'm on vacation for now and won't be back to work on the truck until probably Thursday.

My oldest son has been taking care of our cat and dragging my packages of eBay-sourced, front of the truck original chrome into the house. Mounting that chrome won't be on the top of my list but it will be good to have it when I have the time.

It has an Edelbrock four barrel on it now that appears to be relatively new - with a new Eddy intake manifold. I still need to remove that gasoline of an unknown age from the fuel tank.

The truck also needs better seat belts and I am thinking a three point harness. Some metal work behind the seat will be needed for that, of course.

Door mirrors on both sides are essential - it has no mirrors on the doors now. The small back glass makes door mirrors a big requirement for me.

The 1979 C-10 steering gear box in this truck is a little loose around the middle of its steering travel and I have watched a few You Tube videos on how to adjust it. The box also leaks a little at the Pitman arm seal and it might be a good time to pull the whole thing and rebuild or replace it. I have checked a few sites trying to find what the steering ratio would be in a '79 C-10 box would be but I can't find the answer. I have done gear box swaps out of 1993-98 Jeep Grand Cherokee vehicles before to get a modern 12.7 to 1 ratio and the heftier torsion bar force. It really helped out those vehicles for a modern road feel and driving experience. I just don't know what the donor 79 C-10 truck chassis that is now under this Apache had in it.

Edit: A little more Internet searching reveals that my '79 donor C-10 chassis likely has a 16 to 1 variable ratio steering gear box and that is definitely not to my liking on this Apache truck. This puts an upgrade to a constant ratio 12.7 to 1 box with the same Pitman arm sweep angle turn radius much higher on my "desirement" list. I don't think it will be easy or cost effective to change out the guts of my current box and it might be better to seek an already rebuilt 12.7 to 1 box.

This is a "pre-tirement" vehicle so I've got time to sort these things out. I just want it safe and dependable for now.

Rick

[dsraven]

Steering gears are usually built with a tighter gear set in the middle of their travel. This is to keep the steering tight in the straight ahead position. It's also why it's important to go from lock to lock, counting the turns, and then place the wheel in the halfway point between your count. This centers the box so the gears can be adjusted at their "tight" point. A little looser gear lash at the e ds of the lock to lock travel means the steering axis inclination will be able to bring your steering back to center easier as you come out of a corner. If the gears don't adjust like the should then possibly a new box would be cheaper/quicker/more reliable than rebuilding the old gear set

[B52bobardier1]

Hello,

A little research at "LeePowerSteering.com" has revealed that the '79 steering gear box is a Saginaw 708 that mounts outside the frame rail on C-10 trucks. The 708 is also a variable ratio, 16 to 1 box with a very light valve when I really want a constant ratio, 12 to 1 box with a 35 pound valve.

They can take a stock 708 box and do all of these things that I want to it but it is a costly upgrade.

Rick

[dsraven]

rack and pinion swappable?

[B52bobardier1]

Hello,

I returned from vacation Wednesday and got back to the Apache late that night. Dead battery, very dead. Hooked it up to the charger yesterday morning and analyzed the situation last night.

The problem was a very recently purchased rebuilt alternator that tested fine on the bench at the parts store. But with the battery recharged and my clamp on ammeter / multimeter hooked across the positive battery cable - ignition key off - the alternator had a 0.35 amp draw. Plenty enough to drain my battery while I was on vacation.

Yesterday at lunch, I dropped off the failed "10SI" alternator that was on the truck when I bought it at the local Mom & Pop rebuild shop and they called me today saying it is fixed - about $115 for a complete rebuild, slip rings cleaned up, new bearings and voltage regulator -- it looks brand new. It went back onto the truck earlier tonight and the dead recently purchased rebuild goes back to the parts store tomorrow to be swapped for another one.

I'm still chasing a dead #7 cylinder in the 350 CI motor due to no spark. The header pipe for #7 is quite cold compared to the others with the infrared heat gun. Its spark plug was old and a bit rusty but not fouled at all with oil or soot. I put a new spark plug in and that cylinder is still dead. I'm going to change the plug wire on #7 maybe tomorrow. If that does not fix #7, I will try a new HEI AC Delco ignition module.

Rick

[dsraven]

They don't make'em like they used to for sure.
If your wires are long enough you could try swapping a known good wire for the possibly bad wire. If your misfire changes cylinders like the wire swaps did yhen you know it's a bad wire.
Change the oil when you get it figured. Unturned fuel gets past the rings and dilutes the oil.

[leegreen]

I'm using the steering box from a 81 c10 suburban in my truck. 3 turns lock-lock and very light. maybe look at some of those boxes.

I thought the 4 turn boxes were only manual, not power. maybe you have a 3/4 ton box or ?

[B52bobardier1]

Hello,

I have not counted turns lock to lock but I should and will do that tomorrow. The steering on this truck is very loose and with a lot of play when straight ahead but it has all new steering gear except for the drag link. Also a new steering stabilizer. The rag joint is also tight. I have no reason to believe that it is anything other than a standard 1979 Chevy C-10 steering gear box that is worn out. But I will know more tomorrow.

I did find another C-series Chevy truck (1978 model) in a local junk yard this morning for cheap and if I ever actually do it, this is the steering box that will get shipped off to Lee Power Steering for rebuild and upgrade. This will be an expensive upgrade and will wait until I can try to tighten up the steering box that is in the Apache now. Any adjustment to the Apache box will be slight, slow and deliberate - no radical adjustments. But ultimately, I want anything other than a 16 to 1 ratio and I want a 35 or 40 pound valve for a modern road feel.

And I'm an idiot. The dead #7 cylinder is not dead anymore and the motor runs perfectly now with equal heating on all header pipes. It was a loose #7 plug wire at the cap.

I also installed a new driver's side door mirror late this afternoon. A previous owner had removed the mirror and applied body filler over the bolt holes before a paint job. But with good lighting, I could still see the fill lines surrounding the holes and I slowly countersunk the filler out. The mounting was easy after that and I'm hopeful the passenger door mirror will be the same. I might have to remove a door panel to see if that side ever had the nuts for a mirror - maybe, maybe not.

Rick

[dsraven]

nice find on the plug wire. and no money out of pocket. put a mark on the wall for that one, lol.
for the loose box i recommend to get hands on it and first check the pitman shaft at the output of the box to see if the bushing there is loose. that can cause havoc with adjustment. next do the input shaft freeplat check. see how much the input shaft moves before there is any output shaft movement. remember to do this with the box centered between it's lock to lock count. this may or may not be where your wheels are actually straight ahead. this is where the gears are made to be the tightest fit. adjusting the set screw down into the box should push the pitman shat into the worm gear shaft and result in a tighter fit between those gears. BUT, sometimes the gears have a worn area and when you try to adjust them it goes from looes to tight very quickly. the fix for that is a new set of gears, sorry.
for your door mirrors, there is an actual sheet metal plate inside the doors with nuts for mounting the mirrors. a quick check inside the door would be a good idea, so you know what you have there to support a mirror, so you can find the spots where the holes need to be drilled. you could sharpen up a bolt and screw it into the but from the inside until it leaves a little dimple in the sheet metal on the outside. just a thought.

[dsraven]

sorry for the spelling mistakes, i have fat fingers and am not good at typing (or reading before posting, lol)

[B52bobardier1]

Hello Dennis,

And thanks for the response. The lock-to-lock turns count is about three and one quarter of a turn and I think if I could just get the slack out of the steering going straight ahead, I'd be happy with it. I might try a slight gear box adjustment later today.

I drove it to church this morning and this was my longest trip with it since bringing it home. The engine has a misfire under acceleration to the point that it feels like its a six cylinder and not eight. But at idle and in park, the engine accelerates well without hesitation and all header pipes are roughly the same temperature. I'm going to check the vacuum advance module with a hand pump and the engine timing again with the vacuum advance hose disconnected and plugged.

I bought an "LX301" type of four pin replacement HEI ignition module at O'Reilly's just in case - they did not have an AC Delco module on the shelf for me to purchase. Overall, I think this engine is not worn out or needs a rebuild. It does not smoke at the tail pipe under any condition. It has a normal operating temperature and I think it just needs a little love and attention.

Rick

[dsraven]

misfire under load can be a few things but i would start with a good tune up. what shape are the plug wires, cap, rotor in?
still recommend a compression test
seafoam in fuel tank and run that tank through
then
adjust valves
check vac advance, centrifugal advance, operation and wear
change plugs, cap, rotor, wire set
do a fuel pump pressure and flow check (output) change fuel filter(s) check fuel lines all the way back to tank to ensure all is good
change pcv valve, check/replace vac hoses and fittings. check for other vac leaks as required
set timing, check initial and total advance

[B52bobardier1]

Hello,

I think I found my carburetor problem . . . under the distributor cap. That rusty HEI coil does not pass its standard resistance tests on a multimeter.

Fortunately, I have a spare coil, and new cap, rotor and ignition module and it all gets reinstalled tomorrow after work. And then, a test drive.

Rick

[dsraven]

I think that set up got it's estimated mileage, lol.
check your plug wires for integrity where they connect to the dist cap too. looks like they may need attention by the rust on the towers. maybe change the coil ground wire too.

[B52bobardier1]

Hello Dennis,

The guy I bought it from thought that the engine hesitation problem during acceleration was a misadjusted carburetor. But I don't believe this truck was trapped in some obscure south Louisiana parking lot in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

I think somebody got way too busy and abusive with a pressure washer which got water under the distributor cap. The internal distributor coil grounding bar / tab / crooked length of metal thing didn't look too bad and cleaned up nicely.

I will certainly know more tonight after work when it all gets put back together and I hop in for a test drive. And yes, the plug wires will get a look but they are new from when the guy I bought it from replaced them. And a little dielectric grease will be applied, too.

Rick