47-55.1 47-54 trucks only- camaro/nova subframe

[68c10owner]

I know the subframes are wider than the stock 47-54 frames but who's running one? The search function doesnt work on my phone for some reason. Im on the hunt for a 47-54 GM truck project and my original plan was a Mustang II set up but I can buy a subframe and rebuild it for cheaper. I'm just curious what issues you had installing it and how much wider the front track really gets after install.

Before people ask, Ive installed a Mustang II frontend on a 57 Chevy truck so I have enough fab skills to do the job and what skills I lack, my buddy makes up for.

[leegreen]

If I remember correctly, the AD truck track width is 58", a 2nd gen camaro is 61" and a disk brake nova is 59"

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by leegreen

If I remember correctly, the AD truck track width is 58", a 2nd gen camaro is 61" and a disk brake nova is 59"

I appreciate the reply. These subframe i have access to is from a 1st gen camaro so its a rear steer. I know its old technology but I want to do it on a budget. A S10 frame swap would be easier but more costly.

[leegreen]

this thread may be of interest https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=604554

The 1st gen clip may make it harder to find oil pan & header clearance?

Old car frame clips go pretty cheap around here when they come up, but make sure you factor in the cost of replacement service parts, pretty easy to dump an extra $500 into new brakes, ball joints, tie rods, bushings, shocks....

[mr48chev]

To me it is obsolete 80's technology. I ran a First Gen Camaro rear steer subframe with 72 Chevelle Disk brakes on my 48 for a long time but would never do it again.

By accident I set mine up at a height in the stock frame where the crossmember out front on the subframe was the correct height for my radiator support to bolt to with just a thin spacer.

The BIG problem with a subrame unless you mount the AD frame very high on the subframe is that you have to cut up so much of the front end sheet metal including the inner fenders and the panels beside the radiator support to clear the subframe.

A far better option buy in wise would be an Around 1980 Jag XJ crossmember that usually runs around 300 US for a decent one Unbolts as a unit from the Jag and requires no cutting on the AD truck and all you see is the steering column.

I'm thinking that this one belongs to a member on here.



This one belongs to a member on here.



This is the trimmed down crossmember I bought several years ago with a lot of the extra stuff trimmed off.


Another shot of an XJ crossmember this time on a GMC frame.


Plus this one shows wms to wms


The only rub is that unless you do serious shopping parts can be a bit spendy. But it is the front suspension for a 4000 lb car that is noted for great handling.

One of my buddys subramed over 25 55/59 Chevy trucks over the years and this is how he attached the Camaro Subframes. It wiwll work for rear steer just as well.







The truck that that frame was for was going to be very low but you can set your ride height by how high you place the truck's frame on the subframe.

When we did my 51 Merc we sat the Camaro subframe on blocks under the crossmeber that equaled the distance from bottom of crossmember to shop floor on a Stock Camaro/Nova. That is about 6-1/2 inches. Then we leveled the legs of the subframe on blocks and trimming a tiny bit at a time rolled the frame of the car up to the subframe on jacks at the final desired ride height keeping the frame level. YOU DO NOT BUILD A RAKE INTO THE CONNECTION BETWEEN SUBFRAME AND FRAME. Personally I would use as much of the legs of the subframe as I could and trim the frame to fit.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by leegreen

this thread may be of interest https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=604554

The 1st gen clip may make it harder to find oil pan & header clearance?

Old car frame clips go pretty cheap around here when they come up, but make sure you factor in the cost of replacement service parts, pretty easy to dump an extra $500 into new brakes, ball joints, tie rods, bushings, shocks....

I would just use a pan and headers for the 1st gen subframe

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

To me it is obsolete 80's technology. I ran a First Gen Camaro rear steer subframe with 72 Chevelle Disk brakes on my 48 for a long time but would never do it again.

By accident I set mine up at a height in the stock frame where the crossmember out front on the subframe was the correct height for my radiator support to bolt to with just a thin spacer.

The BIG problem with a subrame unless you mount the AD frame very high on the subframe is that you have to cut up so much of the front end sheet metal including the inner fenders and the panels beside the radiator support to clear the subframe.

A far better option buy in wise would be an Around 1980 Jag XJ crossmember that usually runs around 300 US for a decent one Unbolts as a unit from the Jag and requires no cutting on the AD truck and all you see is the steering column.

I'm thinking that this one belongs to a member on here.



This one belongs to a member on here.



This is the trimmed down crossmember I bought several years ago with a lot of the extra stuff trimmed off.


Another shot of an XJ crossmember this time on a GMC frame.


Plus this one shows wms to wms


The only rub is that unless you do serious shopping parts can be a bit spendy. But it is the front suspension for a 4000 lb car that is noted for great handling.

One of my buddys subramed over 25 55/59 Chevy trucks over the years and this is how he attached the Camaro Subframes. It wiwll work for rear steer just as well.







The truck that that frame was for was going to be very low but you can set your ride height by how high you place the truck's frame on the subframe.

When we did my 51 Merc we sat the Camaro subframe on blocks under the crossmeber that equaled the distance from bottom of crossmember to shop floor on a Stock Camaro/Nova. That is about 6-1/2 inches. Then we leveled the legs of the subframe on blocks and trimming a tiny bit at a time rolled the frame of the car up to the subframe on jacks at the final desired ride height keeping the frame level. YOU DO NOT BUILD A RAKE INTO THE CONNECTION BETWEEN SUBFRAME AND FRAME. Personally I would use as much of the legs of the subframe as I could and trim the frame to fit.

Im just doing some homework right now. I know its old tech but it still works. A jag frontend isnt an option. Ill do a Mustang II set up before I do a Jag set up. Just trying to do it on a budget. Not building a show truck, just a driver

[mr48chev]

The only thing that has made me hesitate about the Jag is the cost of some parts like the rack and pinion. Brake parts and suspension pieces aren't that bad as long as you stay from Jag specialists.

I blew it and didn't buy one if industrial Chassis crossmembers that use Dodge Dakota front end components a few years ago and so far he hasn't got production going again after being screwed over by the shop he went in with that was supposed to produce his pieces along with him working for them. I've got the whole front suspension for a Dakota sitting out here and have 12 inch rotors for it sitting in the shed. If it becomes avaialble now the crossmember will be about 400 more than it was before.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

The only thing that has made me hesitate about the Jag is the cost of some parts like the rack and pinion. Brake parts and suspension pieces aren't that bad as long as you stay from Jag specialists.

I blew it and didn't buy one if industrial Chassis crossmembers that use Dodge Dakota front end components a few years ago and so far he hasn't got production going again after being screwed over by the shop he went in with that was supposed to produce his pieces along with him working for them. I've got the whole front suspension for a Dakota sitting out here and have 12 inch rotors for it sitting in the shed. If it becomes avaialble now the crossmember will be about 400 more than it was before.

If I dont do a camaro/nova subframe I'll be doing a Mustang II frontend. Ive installed them before and they will do the job just fine. Its just more expensive. I have no interest in the Jag stuff.

[Rickysnickers]

Mr 48, that is great info about the Jag front suspension, thanks for sharing this.

[leegreen]

What do people do for shocks on the jag swap? I see the red truck has towers welded on but the others have no shocks? Do the jag springs work out ok in a truck with typical 400-500 pounds of motor?

it does look like a better fit than some possibilities

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by leegreen

What do people do for shocks on the jag swap? I see the red truck has towers welded on but the others have no shocks? Do the jag springs work out ok in a truck with typical 400-500 pounds of motor?

it does look like a better fit than some possibilities

You build towers similar to what are on the red truck or something similar to what is on a later indepedent Chevy truck front end. Curb weight of an 80 Jag XJ6 is 3893/3912 depending on what page you look at lbs that is 600 lbs heavier than an AD 3104 at or a TF 3104 at 3350 curb weight. I couldn't find anything on front/rear weight bias on the Jags but from reading about XJ with Small block Chevys installed they loose some weight on the front end.

[mr48chev]

This is a front steer Subframe on an AD. Lots of bulk there that still needs a lot of trimming and probably why the guy gave up on it.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...type=top_picks

[mr48chev]

Another option that a gent by the name of Howdy Leadbetter did a good number of back in the day.

63/68 C10 front crossmember and suspension under and AD. With drum brakes the wheels still fit pretty well under the 3000 series fenders.

Their photos aren't the best on this frame for sale but good enough to get the idea.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...40522368%22%7D

[leegreen]

I do not recommend a c10 frame under AD sheet metal, it is too wide.
My '52 has a '64 frame under it that I put there circa 1980.
I narrowed the crossmember and V'd the front frame rails to make it work.
A lot of work, I am happy with the result but would not do it again, there are better options now.

Without narrowing you either need cookie cutter narrow tires, or tiny diameter tires or a jacked up look with wheels poking out a bit.

coincidently there is a AD on '64 frame for sale in BC right now:
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...2743705907267/
there are no good front corner shots to show track width fit, but a decent side view showing stance

I certainly would not kick it out of the driveway for leaking, it is not horrible.

my truck sits lower, still stock springs and spindles, just lower on frame

[mr48chev]

That is why I said mid 60's Drum brake front end that is pretty close to the same wms to wms as an AD plus that truck doesn't have the complete C 10 frame just the front suspension and steering. The rub is it is six lug drum brake and any disk brake swap will probably move the wheels ou.

[leegreen]

I disagree, the 6 lug drum brake front suspension from a c10 is too wide.

I just completed a swap on my truck from all 64 stuff to 70s c10 control arms, spindles and the 6 lug 1.25" rotors, it added 1/2 cm (3/16") to each side at WMS compared to the '64 drums and control arms.

C10 with drum or disk are pretty much identical width. And too wide to be a good choice for an AD truck.

It is a pity as I think the c10 front suspension is a great choice for a hot rod 1/2 ton. Be my first choice for a task force truck or anything similar that was wide enough.

[mr48chev]

I just know that years back Howdy Ledbetter did a ton of them in SoCal. There was a pretty good artical about it in one of the magazines. Tread width on a 64 is 63-1/2 meaning that you couldn't run deep reverse wheels.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

You build towers similar to what are on the red truck or something similar to what is on a later indepedent Chevy truck front end. Curb weight of an 80 Jag XJ6 is 3893/3912 depending on what page you look at lbs that is 600 lbs heavier than an AD 3104 at or a TF 3104 at 3350 curb weight. I couldn't find anything on front/rear weight bias on the Jags but from reading about XJ with Small block Chevys installed they loose some weight on the front end.

Well, now you got me curious about the Jag front end. How does it install onto the AD frame? Its hard to tell in the pics you posted before.

[PDW HOTRODS]

M2 is easier, but out of any other front suspension, first gen Camaro/Nova is the best, If you can weld, fab, and problem solve. Parts are easy to get, and lots of aftermarket support. I have done quite a few. You need to cut up inner fenders for any ifs swap. Front steer Camaro/Nova you have to modify core support for steering box, then deal with radiator. Rear steer is narrower and works great. I move the engine back a couple inches on the subframe and it works great, if you mount on stock location engine mounts the engine is too far forward. No oil pan or header problems either way. I put the subframe under the truck frame and ride height is about the same as the Camaro. Front bumper mounts is the hardest part. Some people say its old tech, but they still use coil springs and A arms today. And there are plenty of mods you can do to upgrade if you want, but I'm happy with how a 69 Camaro drives. Especially compared to the stock straight axle.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by PDW HOTRODS

M2 is easier, but out of any other front suspension, first gen Camaro/Nova is the best, If you can weld, fab, and problem solve. Parts are easy to get, and lots of aftermarket support. I have done quite a few. You need to cut up inner fenders for any ifs swap. Front steer Camaro/Nova you have to modify core support for steering box, then deal with radiator. Rear steer is narrower and works great. I move the engine back a couple inches on the subframe and it works great, if you mount on stock location engine mounts the engine is too far forward. No oil pan or header problems either way. I put the subframe under the truck frame and ride height is about the same as the Camaro. Front bumper mounts is the hardest part. Some people say its old tech, but they still use coil springs and A arms today. And there are plenty of mods you can do to upgrade if you want, but I'm happy with how a 69 Camaro drives. Especially compared to the stock straight axle.

I know its easier. Ive installed them before. I was just trying to do a very low buck set up but in the end I decided not to fo the camaro clip. Whatever I end up with will get a Mustang II because as you mentioned, its easier and wheel/tire selection is easier.