Enamel, lacquer, urethane? Which paint?

[rbruno68]

I am in real need of paint advice from you guys that have painted your trucks. I am new to the painting and not sure exactly all the differences. If you are looking at my build series, I am getting ready to start to paint the cab of my 63. I called TCP Global yesterday to order the correct fawn for the interior. The guy was very nice and helpful, but unfortunately a lot of what he was telling me was going over my heard. I have basically two situations in painting. And, I want to do it all in single stage. My steps/plan are epoxy, body filler, high build, color. The question comes with types of high builds and color.

Situation 1. The interior
The interior of the cab has been complete media blasted and painted with Shop Line JP375 epoxy paint. I have a small area to body work and put on some filler. When I sand, I know I will break through to bare metal. I am looking for a high build that can go direct to metal. I looked at Shop Line high build but I don’t see that it is direct to metal. The guy at TCP Global has a DTM high build I could use, but he said I couldn’t use it on the exterior patches. More on that later. He also said I could use enamel or lacquer and recommended lacquer but also said I could use that on the exterior. What did you guys use for the fawn paint? Lacquer, enamel, or urethane?

Situation 2 Exterior patches paint blend
I have the cab corners and rockers that I need to paint. Same epoxy down first. But, I don’t plan to paint the entire cab. I want to try and blend the paint. Knowing the paint is not going to match aside, he said that the high build they had would not go over existing factory paint or at least the one he recommended. So, for those of you that have only painted your patches, what type of DTM high build primer did you use, urethane, polyester, etc and what type of color paint did you use to blend with the original paint? Again, this isn’t about color matching, it is about what is going to adhere to the overlap parts of the original paint.

Sorry this is a long post, but just need some solid advice and dumbed down for a beginner to understand.
Thanks

[SkinnyG]

First off: I am not a body man. But I did 100% of everything on my truck, including painting.

I sandblasted everything (crushed glass, took weeks), did the metal repair as best I could (I work to "an acceptable level of filler"), then shot epoxy primer.

You can apply filler over epoxy primer (and I would epoxy again over that), but if your bodywork is good enough it's better to shoot a sprayable filler over everything, so at least you get sanding consistency (it's hard to mix spot applications of filler the same hardness). I sprayed Slick Sand, and used two gallons. As you sand, when the primer starts to appear you stop sanding. Maybe spray another coat of Slick Sand and sand again.

After sanding the sprayable filler, I sprayed epoxy primer again. You could spray a seal coat (basically a thinned epoxy primer). De-nib it, and you can do paint.

Lacquer is the least durable, but forgiving to spray. It dries quick. The overspray is basically dry before it the ground - doesn't make your entire shop an over-sprayed mess.

Un-catalyzed Enamel will take weeks or months to fully cure. It is more durable than lacquer. (I painted my '77 Silverado with an Alkyd Enamel years ago because it was cheap and convenient. It held up adequately for what it was.)

On my '61 I sprayed PPG Delfleet catalyzed polyurethane enamel over everything - even inside the cab and on the frame. Polyurethane is arguably the better of the paints, but more expensive and more toxic.

I have sprayed Shop Line paints, they are fine.

I would always spray epoxy primer on bare metal. It is a VERY good sealer, and these trucks are known for rust.

But I am not a body man. I'm just too cheap to pay someone else to do it.

[rbruno68]

Originally Posted by SkinnyG

First off: I am not a body man. But I did 100% of everything on my truck, including painting.

I sandblasted everything (crushed glass, took weeks), did the metal repair as best I could (I work to "an acceptable level of filler"), then shot epoxy primer.

You can apply filler over epoxy primer (and I would epoxy again over that), but if your bodywork is good enough it's better to shoot a sprayable filler over everything, so at least you get sanding consistency (it's hard to mix spot applications of filler the same hardness). I sprayed Slick Sand, and used two gallons. As you sand, when the primer starts to appear you stop sanding. Maybe spray another coat of Slick Sand and sand again.

After sanding the sprayable filler, I sprayed epoxy primer again. You could spray a seal coat (basically a thinned epoxy primer). De-nib it, and you can do paint.

Lacquer is the least durable, but forgiving to spray. It dries quick. The overspray is basically dry before it the ground - doesn't make your entire shop an over-sprayed mess.

Un-catalyzed Enamel will take weeks or months to fully cure. It is more durable than lacquer. (I painted my '77 Silverado with an Alkyd Enamel years ago because it was cheap and convenient. It held up adequately for what it was.)

On my '61 I sprayed PPG Delfleet catalyzed polyurethane enamel over everything - even inside the cab and on the frame. Polyurethane is arguably the better of the paints, but more expensive and more toxic.

I have sprayed Shop Line paints, they are fine.

I would always spray epoxy primer on bare metal. It is a VERY good sealer, and these trucks are known for rust.

But I am not a body man. I'm just too cheap to pay someone else to do it.

Thanks Skinny G. I am clearly not a body/paint person either. The more I think about the conversation I had with the guy at TCP Global, the more I may have not been clear. I told him I wanted the original paint for the interior which is why he may have gone strait to lacquer. But, I am more interested in the original color and not type of paint. I thought Polyester paints were essentially porous and always needed a sealer. Or is polyester primers different then polyurethane base coats? More information and just more questions. And, if I understand correctly, you were not blending or painting over any of the original paint on your truck right? You had everything blasted.

[SkinnyG]

Paints are not polyester, but many high-build primers are polyester. Polyester primers are porous, and I would lay down epoxy primer first, spray the polyester high-build (or Slick-Sand/equivalent) and epoxy primer after.

I did not blend any repair. It was ultimately easier for me to just do it all, than to try and "save" the patina and risk having it continue rusting.

If I were to blend-in some paint, I would try to use the same kind of paint as the truck has. If the truck is already lacquer, lacquer would be fine. If it's enamel, the lacquer you put down will age much faster and it will look odd (if you find that look "odd") - you've seen the very "flat" "aged" painted repair areas on other cars - that's lacquer.

[Grounded63]

In situation 1. If you are spraying a 2k ( catalyzed ) single stage color coat. You do not want a 1k ( non-catalyzed ) product underneath it. It sounds like your looking for a product similar to PPG VP 2050 or HOK DTS 3000 series. You can also just respray the SL epoxy over the repair area. Then spray a 2k primer filler over that.

Of course any area that has the SL epoxy on it. That is outside of the recoat window must be scuffed or sanded prior to recoating with any additional products.

[Grounded63]

I would say that there is a distinction between a polyester primer. Basically a sprayable " bondo "

And a true high build epoxy, acrylic, or polyurethane. 2k primer/filler.

There was a time when 2K high build, filler/primers didn't exist. So if you were in a situation where you needed more fill. Your choice was only, apply more body filler. Or, spray on a polyester primer.

Some guys prefer the polyester route. Usually these are hobbyists and some older restoration/custom type shops.

Some guys prefer the 2k primer filler route.

In a main stream collision shop. You will probably almost never see a polyester primer being used. It's really kind of a older carry over. Like people still spraying off brand lacquer primers.

Really the choice comes down to personal preference and quality of bodywork. If a 2k primer/filler does not have enough build. To fill the existing " significant " imperfections in a panel. Then a polyester primer maybe a better choice.

[rbruno68]

Originally Posted by Grounded63

In situation 1. If you are spraying a 2k ( catalyzed ) single stage color coat. You do not want a 1k ( non-catalyzed ) product underneath it. It sounds like your looking for a product similar to PPG VP 2050 or HOK DTS 3000 series. You can also just respray the SL epoxy over the repair area. Then spray a 2k primer filler over that.

Of course any area that has the SL epoxy on it. That is outside of the recoat window must be scuffed or sanded prior to recoating with any additional products.

Thanks for the information. I am looking for something like VP2050, but I haven’t found it in a quart. I don’t need near a gallon of the stuff. And I am not 100% sure if it will ship to MD. I know one of PPGs epoxy is not compliant in MD. Would enamel or lacquer be a 2k catalyzed color coat?

[rbruno68]

Originally Posted by Grounded63

I would say that there is a distinction between a polyester primer. Basically a sprayable " bondo "

And a true high build epoxy, acrylic, or polyurethane. 2k primer/filler.

There was a time when 2K high build, filler/primers didn't exist. So if you were in a situation where you needed more fill. Your choice was only, apply more body filler. Or, spray on a polyester primer.

Some guys prefer the polyester route. Usually these are hobbyists and some older restoration/custom type shops.

Some guys prefer the 2k primer filler route.

In a main stream collision shop. You will probably almost never see a polyester primer being used. It's really kind of a older carry over. Like people still spraying off brand lacquer primers.

Really the choice comes down to personal preference and quality of bodywork. If a 2k primer/filler does not have enough build. To fill the existing " significant " imperfections in a panel. Then a polyester primer maybe a better choice.

In this case when you are talking about a 2K primer/filler, is that the 2k urethane primer and not the polyester?

[rbruno68]

For those that have had the fawn mixed to match the original color, what is the difference in the enamel and the lacquer as far as sheen?

[Grounded63]

Originally Posted by rbruno68

Thanks for the information. I am looking for something like VP2050, but I haven’t found it in a quart. I don’t need near a gallon of the stuff. And I am not 100% sure if it will ship to MD. I know one of PPGs epoxy is not compliant in MD. Would enamel or lacquer be a 2k catalyzed color coat?

Unfortunately, I think vp2050 is only available in gallons. Is there a reason you are not wanting to continue with the SL epoxy ?

Only a resin system that requires or uses a activator/catalyst/hardener ( crosslinks ) is a 2K product. A 2k product will generally have some amount of chemical and mechanical bond. Where a 1K product really only has a mechanical bond.

Lacquer paint is resin/thinner, no activator. 1k product.
Acrylic enamel, can be activated or not. Traditionally it was called a hardener. Drying times/durability of the product are much better. When a hardened is used.

[Grounded63]

Originally Posted by rbruno68

In this case when you are talking about a 2K primer/filler, is that the 2k urethane primer and not the polyester?

Pretty much, depending on the actual manufacturer/product line. Will determine whether its a urethane/acrylic/epoxy formulation.

Polyester primers. Are kinda old school. Essentially fibergass resin ( polyester ) with fillers and MEKP cured/activated. And we're around before the term 2K was really in common use. To describe a newer ( at the time ) system/product that required an activator. Where previously, similar type products, did not require one. 2K products came about mainly during the transition/advancement. Of lacquer & enamel automotive refinish systems, to Base Coat / Clear Coat refinish systems.

Lacquer clear - 1K product
Urethane clear - 2K product
Lacquer primer - 1K product
Epoxy primer - 2K product
Urethane primer/surfacer 2K product.

[rbruno68]

Originally Posted by Grounded63

Unfortunately, I think vp2050 is only available in gallons. Is there a reason you are not wanting to continue with the SL epoxy ?

Only a resin system that requires or uses a activator/catalyst/hardener ( crosslinks ) is a 2K product.

Lacquer paint is resin/thinner, no activator. 1k product.
Acrylic enamel, can be activated or not. The drying times/durability of the product are much better. When a activator/hardened is used.

When I was looking for a high build primer that I could put on top of the body filler and existing epoxy, the next high build from Shop Line JP202 it think, did not say it was a direct to metal high build. At least it didn’t explicitly say that in the data sheet. I could have missed it and maybe it can. I know I will have break through to bare metal as I do body work. So, I was looking to save a step of continuing to spray the epoxy.

And, the last time I went to my local PPG and had some paint mixed based on their color charts, it came out very different than my original. Everyone has said how close the TCP Global fawn is to the original color. I wanted to go with them for the interior color. And, I have also read that you want to stay in product lines for best finish and adhesion. That was another reason why I thought I would go with one of their high build primers. But when the guy told me I couldn’t use it on the outside where my original paint was, I needed to stop and get some more information before spending the money on the paint which has led to my two different situations.

[Grounded63]

Most, if not all, high build urethane based 2K primers. Need to be applied over a epoxy or self etch primer. ( or existing modern OEM finish ) They are not direct to metal.

The reason they are telling you, it can not be used over the original finish. Is that they are not stable ( activated/crosslinked ) . If you spray a 2K product over the top of it, that has reducer in it. The 1k product can soften up. And when the activator from the 2K product tries to bite into it. It can lift/wrinkle the softened 1K product. In some epoxy TDS. You will see this listed/described as a sensitive substrate. You can sometimes work around this. By applying a 2K epoxy resin product over the top of this. The TDS will list this if it it recommended. ( non reduced, straight epoxy primer ) This locks/seals the 1K product from the solvent/reducer of the following paint products. ( 2K primers, base coats, clear coats ).

Usually if you want to mix and match paint manufacturers/products. The best practice is to use the same brand/line from metal to final prime. Then if you want to switch at the top coat stage. Sealer, base coat, clear coat, should all be from the same manufacturer/line.

[Grounded63]

The JP 202 you referenced above. Can not be sprayed over bare metal.

For something minor like the break through to bare steel. On the interior bodywork you are describing. You can probably just use some rattle can self etch. PPG & SEM both have it available. It wouldn't really be my first choice, but should be perfectly acceptable. You have to limit its over spray on to body filler. Any excessive over spray/coverage on top of polyester resin products. Should be sanded/scuffed back, once the self etch has flashed/dried.

At one of the production shops I worked at. If there was minor break throughs to bare metal. In e coat or bodywork just prior to sealing. We would spray those small areas with rattle can self etch.

I wouldn't want to spray an entire bare metal fender down with it. But, it's to bridge the gap, between a minor amount of freshly exposed metal during prep. And the application of a non direct to metal product, that can go over a self etch product.

[rbruno68]

Originally Posted by Grounded63

The JP 202 you referenced above. Can not be sprayed over bare metal.

For something minor like the break through to bare steel. On the interior bodywork you are describing. You can probably just use some rattle can self etch. PPG & SEM both have it available. It wouldn't really be my first choice, but should be perfectly acceptable. You have to limit its over spray on to body filler. Any excessive over spray/coverage on top of polyester resin products. Should be sanded/scuffed back, once the self etch has flashed/dried.

At one of the production shops I worked at. If there was minor break throughs to bare metal. In e coat or bodywork just prior to sealing. We would spray those small areas with rattle can self etch.

I wouldn't want to spray an entire bare metal fender down with it. But, it's to bridge the gap, between a minor amount of freshly exposed metal during prep. And the application of a non direct to metal product, that can go over a self etch product.

BTW, thanks for all the responses and information. It is greatly appreciated.

So, I think I understand my steps would be:
1. Sand to bare metal
2. Epoxy over bare metal and sanded OEM finish
3. Body filler work and sand
4. If I have break through, either splurge for VP2050 or respray with epoxy
5. Spray with 2k urethane
6. Top coat with a 2k enamel

Does that sound about right for exterior with blending into original paint?

The interior I think I just need to decide if I want enamel or lacquer paint for fawn because I don’t need to deal with the original paint.

[Grounded63]

Yes, pretty much.

If you were not dealing with the original ( what I assume is 1K paint )

You could,
Sand bare metal
Vp2050
Filler work
Sand/block
Vp2050
Sand/block
Straight to paint or an additional round of vp2050 if you needed more fill.

The vp2050 is kind of a hybrid product. It is epoxy based, high build, and sandable. You can use it, to replace both the epoxy and 2k primer. But the TDS specifically says to not use it over 1k lacquer.

[Grounded63]

Originally Posted by rbruno68

1. Sand to bare metal
2. Epoxy over bare metal and sanded OEM finish
3. Body filler work and sand
4. If I have break through, either splurge for VP2050 or respray with epoxy
5. Spray with 2k urethane
6. Top coat with a 2k enamel

Does that sound about right for exterior with blending into original paint?

At #4 if you went to vp2050. You would skip the respray of epoxy and the use of the 2k urethane primer/filler. If you resprayed epoxy you would top coat it with 2k urethane for build/fill.

On here you could also
Sand bare metal
Epoxy
Filler work
Sand/block
Rattle can self etch break throughs
2k primer directly over body work, epoxy, self etch
Sand/block
Straight to paint, or another round of 2K if more fill is needed.

This is more of a production type repair.

On higher end custom work, it is preferable to top coat/seal the filler work, with epoxy. Or you could switch to vp2050 after filler work. And eliminate the 2k prime and self etch.

Hopefully this is not adding extra confusion. In the OP it seemed like you were trying to avoid using more epoxy. But, not explaining why. There are many ways to get to the same place. Usually with the least amount of differing products is best/easiest. But, you have to work within specific product limitations and the existing substrate issues. You should definitely download all of the TDS for the all of the products you want to use. Generally with PPG/Shop Line TDS are very detailed for compatibility, prep, and usage.

[rbruno68]

Originally Posted by Grounded63

At #4 if you went to vp2050. You would skip the respray of epoxy and the use of the 2k urethane primer/filler. If you resprayed epoxy you would top coat it with 2k urethane for build/fill.

On here you could also
Sand bare metal
Epoxy
Filler work
Sand/block
Rattle can self etch break throughs
2k primer directly over body work, epoxy, self etch
Sand/block
Straight to paint, or another round of 2K if more fill is needed.

This is more of a production type repair.

On higher end custom work, it is preferable to top coat/seal the filler work, with epoxy. Or you could switch to vp2050 after filler work. And eliminate the 2k prime and self etch.

Hopefully this is not adding extra confusion. In the OP it seemed like you were trying to avoid using more epoxy. But, not explaining why. There are many ways to get to the same place. Usually with the least amount of differing products is best/easiest. But, you have to work within specific product limitations and the existing substrate issues. You should definitely download all of the TDS for the all of the products you want to use. Generally with PPG/Shop Line TDS are very detailed for compatibility, prep, and usage.

This has definitely helped. I need to make a trip to my PPG store and talked about that final step with blending the exterior paint and also see if they have a better match for the fawn interior then they did the last color I tried to match.

[rbruno68]

Originally Posted by Grounded63

Hopefully this is not adding extra confusion. In the OP it seemed like you were trying to avoid using more epoxy. But, not explaining why. There are many ways to get to the same place. Usually with the least amount of differing products is best/easiest. But, you have to work within specific product limitations and the existing substrate issues. You should definitely download all of the TDS for the all of the products you want to use. Generally with PPG/Shop Line TDS are very detailed for compatibility, prep, and usage.

I probably didn’t do a very good job explaining about the epoxy. When I was looking at the next step in Shop Line and the JP202 as a high build, as we have talked about it is not a DTM product. So, I was looking to avoid spraying the sand through or the entire area with epoxy again only to be able to spray the 202. I was then thinking about the VP2050, but again it only comes in the gallon and I don’t think I will ever go through a gallon with my plans for this truck. So, I was looking for options for a DTM high build to be able to skip respraying epoxy for the break through only to cover it with a high build. Hope that makes sense and I realize I might be trying to skimp in an area I probably shouldn’t.

[60-66]

Originally Posted by rbruno68

For those that have had the fawn mixed to match the original color, what is the difference in the enamel and the lacquer as far as sheen?

In this link of my panel , https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...1966+gmc+panel , the entire interior was done in TCP Global's Lacquer. Why ? Lacquer out of the gun is not as glossy as enamel and can be adjusted by lightly polishing up to a dull gloss that's more consistent to the factory sheen. Just my opinion. Enamel can be flattened , yes, but you would have to experiment to get it right and then your stuck with it, its also thicker. I have also repaired original interior paint on low mile trucks using the lacquer and the color and sheen are the same. These interiors were not glossy and part of that reason is the gloss on top of the dash creates a reflection in the windshield . Most cars dash tops later in the mid 60s and up were flat , no sheen at all for that reason. For the exterior of the truck I used single stage enamel to get a more factory look. I've been using single stage on all my trucks and painted a few myself with great results. I did not paint my Panel truck.

[60-66]

Originally Posted by rbruno68

For those that have had the fawn mixed to match the original color, what is the difference in the enamel and the lacquer as far as sheen?

In this link of my panel , https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...1966+gmc+panel , the entire interior was done in TCP Global's Lacquer. Why ? Lacquer out of the gun is not as glossy as enamel and can be adjusted by lightly polishing up to a dull gloss that's more consistent to the factory sheen. Just my opinion. Enamel can be flattened , yes, but you would have to experiment to get it right and then your stuck with it, its also thicker. I have also repaired original interior paint on low mile trucks using the lacquer and the color and sheen are the same. These interiors were not glossy and part of that reason is the gloss on top of the dash creates a reflection in the windshield . Most cars dash tops later in the mid 60s and up were flat , no sheen at all for that reason. For the exterior of the truck I used single stage enamel to get a more factory look. I've been using single stage on all my trucks and painted a few myself with great results. I did not paint my Panel truck.

[rbruno68]

Originally Posted by 60-66

In this link of my panel , https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...1966+gmc+panel , the entire interior was done in TCP Global's Lacquer. Why ? Lacquer out of the gun is not as glossy as enamel and can be adjusted by lightly polishing up to a dull gloss that's more consistent to the factory sheen. Just my opinion. Enamel can be flattened , yes, but you would have to experiment to get it right and then your stuck with it, its also thicker. I have also repaired original interior paint on low mile trucks using the lacquer and the color and sheen are the same. These interiors were not glossy and part of that reason is the gloss on top of the dash creates a reflection in the windshield . Most cars dash tops later in the mid 60s and up were flat , no sheen at all for that reason. For the exterior of the truck I used single stage enamel to get a more factory look. I've been using single stage on all my trucks and painted a few myself with great results. I did not paint my Panel truck.

Thanks Jon. You panel truck looks great. So, if lacquer is the right choice for the interior and enamel for the exterior, what type of primer do you have underneath both? Are they the same? And when you used enamel on the outside, were you blending or painting up to the existing OEM paint or did you repaint the entire truck with the enamel?

Thanks again for your response. I want to definitely go with TCP’s paint, but the primer is the next thing I figure out.

[60-66]

Originally Posted by rbruno68

Thanks Jon. You panel truck looks great. So, if lacquer is the right choice for the interior and enamel for the exterior, what type of primer do you have underneath both? Are they the same? And when you used enamel on the outside, were you blending or painting up to the existing OEM paint or did you repaint the entire truck with the enamel?

Thanks again for your response. I want to definitely go with TCP’s paint, but the primer is the next thing I figure out.

I honestly let the paint supplier tell me which product they recommend . As for the panel , That was a strip to bare metal and the restoration shop took care of everything so I don't have info on that. I supplied the interior paint only. Try reaching out to theastronaut on this site as he is an experienced painter.

[rbruno68]

Originally Posted by 60-66

I honestly let the paint supplier tell me which product they recommend . As for the panel , That was a strip to bare metal and the restoration shop took care of everything so I don't have info on that. I supplied the interior paint only. Try reaching out to theastronaut on this site as he is an experienced painter.

Thanks. I will send him a message. He helped me with building my air dryer from a dorm fridge. Hopefully he will be able to fill in some more of the blanks.
Thanks again for your help.

[Grounded63]

Originally Posted by rbruno68

This has definitely helped. I need to make a trip to my PPG store and talked about that final step with blending the exterior paint and also see if they have a better match for the fawn interior then they did the last color I tried to match.

PPG has a specific interior color paint line. DBI.

If it is still available. It's possible that it has been phased out by now. But, I would kinda expect, that since DBC is still available. It probably is also. I haven't had the need to buy any
In over a decade.