C10 front end under an AD Chevy truck

[Steve@OldSub.com]

Originally Posted by 63 & 64 Bowties

But, what are the problems that the stovebolt guy encountered? It looks like it would be a pretty straight forward swap.

I don't think he would call himself a Stovebolt'r since he is hardly ever there. However a number of people there reference his build and his published instructions when discussing this swap.

His problem was his placement of the steering box, which was based on the CPP type power steering conversion that uses a Chevy pickup box. He had converted to power steering before deciding on the IFS and didn't change the location of the box when he converted.

Since part of that kit is some weld on brackets I can easily see why someone might not want to change.

Because the box, or more accurately, the pitman arm and its pivot point, were not in the same relationship to the spindles as was originally designed by the GM engineers he ended up with a bad bump steer problem.

His write-up is here. His 1/31/2009 update is just a week or so after I toured his shop and told him how often I'd seen people on Stovebolt refer to his description of the process.

Andereggen figured out his problem and chose to go back to a straight axle as his solution because some of his thinking about what he wanted to do had changed. I believe he still very much believes in this swap.

I was aware of Robert's project when I was considering my own, but knew Robert was not finished yet with the project, and I believe still isn't really finished. I could not find the authors of any of the other IFS swap articles I could find on the web and like I said before, no one on Stovebolt, the HAMB or OldGMCTrucks responded that they had done the swap and had it on the road.

And that statement is not quite true. One guy on Stovebolt responded that we had done the swap for a customer about 20 years ago, and it was successful and still in use as far as he knew. Unfortunately he had no real pictures of what he had done, his memory of the details contradicted details in the one picture, and he no longer had access to the truck.

His example didn't seem helpful to me, and since he is located half way across the country from me it wasn't practical to go see it.

Last summer I discovered a guy in Northern California that had done the swap and loved driving the finished truck. By that time I'd already made my decision to go ahead and had just weeks before driven through Northern California collecting my daughter as she graduated from college. Her graduation ended my twice annual trips to California so I don't know when I'll be there again, but will try to see him and his truck when it does happen.

Today I pulled the IFS off my mostly bare frame and cleared all the junk stacked on and around it. I had already removed the rear axle and springs. Tomorrow I plan to tip it up on its side to allow thoroughly cleaning the bottom and to make enough room to store my Suburban in my shop.

Starting next week my butt belongs to the cancer docs and I won't have any shop time until July or August at best, so my project is on hold. I know I'm not the first to hit this kind of delay and probably not the last.

My primary thought this afternoon as I was working was will I be able to find this part when I need it in the summer or fall?

[winchster]

Steve, I am giving away my front saddle to a board member this weekend. I doubt he will want the spacers I had machined. If you want them, they are yours, I will ship them to you for free.

[Steve@OldSub.com]

Winchester that is very kind of you.

Since mine is a 1-ton and yours a 1/2-ton and the frames are different, I don't think your spacers would work for me. However, I would very much like to see them, or perhaps see some close up pictures.

The primary difference in the frames is the shape where the IFS cross member hits the bottom of the frame. Where the 1/2- and 3/4-ton trucks are close to flat, the 1-ton has a much more complex shape.

I created a spacer or conversion mount by cutting a piece from a second 1-ton frame that matches that area, and then welding to that a piece that matches the flat IFS top. The two pieces are actually L-shaped and the two upright portions are my spacer on the sides of the frame.

They are not quite finished, but are close. Once I get back to that part of the project I don't expect it to take more than another day or so.

While I've put a lot of work into the sides of my spacers I think the primary design difference between what I have done and the others I've seen is the part that is under the frame and on top of the cross member.

My sides are designed to add strength to the frame and also to ensure that my steering box and idler arm are in the correct relationship to my IFS.

Where there brackets or spacers are in place, my frame is effectively braced by a piece of steel twice the thickness of the frame. Since I'm using this truck to pull a heavy trailer and powering it with a Cadillac 500 I'm aiming for overkill.

[winchster]

When I pull them apart this weekend I will take up close and detailed pics of the plates. I also had a plate drilled to separate the steering box from the frame. I will take a picture of it as well.

[Steve@OldSub.com]

Thank you I'll look forward to seeing those!

[Dan Bowles]

Steve, good luck with the build and the cancer docs. I'm on the "good end" of being sick since October but wasn't able to "plan" much at all for it, mine just hit. If there is anything I can do (from across the nation!) I'm in!

[Steve@OldSub.com]

I had completely forgotten this thread! Just days later I began daily visits to the cancer clinic and within a few weeks had moved to an apartment just blocks from the clinic where I'm still living today. Since then I've spent about a month hospitalized and at least under month under enough medication my brain wasn't really useful.

The last few weeks I've felt like I've returned to the real world even if I'm still very limited in what I can do. Based on Fridays' doctor visit there is still risk of relapse but all the indications are that the treatment is working and I'll be a cancer survivor.

This dialog remains of interest to me if it does to anyone else.

Winchester, is the offer of pictures of your adapters is still open I would definitely like to see them. Or if its easier for you, I can PM you my address and accept your offer to ship them to me. While I may never use them studying them would be good for me.

I'm still a month from being able to go home and play in my shop and probably six months from a return to work.

Thanks guys!

[55dude]

these front end swaps are really better suited for TF trucks unless they are narrowed. this is my $5.42 59' with 70' C-20 under it that seems to fit fine.

[mobileortho]

From one cancer survivor to another, I'm just glad to hear you're doing well. Hang in there Steve.

[Steve@OldSub.com]

Thanks Robert! Now we just need to finish our truck projects!

Gregg how do you deal with the much different frame width on TF truck when making this swap?

[55dude]

steve i'm not sure what you mean exactly? the frame i believe is 34" like the stock one. the front tapers down to 28" wide. i'm thinking your referencing the stock flat frame vs the swoopy newer frame. the person/s that did the swap just compensated by different length body mounts as it seems to fit fine. this truck will probably just be another dream to be finished by somebody else.

[Steve@OldSub.com]

Perhaps I misunderstood. In the AD context we were talking about swapping just the IFS crossmember and related parts. Your response sounds like instead the entire TF frame of this truck was replaced with the entire newer frame.

Is that the case? If so my question was meaningless.

[55dude]

never a meaningless question steve. the entire frame was swapped before i got it.this 59' was purchased because nobody else wanted it so i figured (7 years ago) with paper it was worth $5!

[mr48chev]

Since this thread started I have picked up a 51 1-1/2 ton 4400 series that I think I want to put a C-1- 0r 20 front end under and shorten the frame about 4 ft. and hang the matching rear axle and springs on the back.


I won't be running deep rims or wide wheels and don't plan on being super low. Just making it a nice driver with a flat bed on the back.

Right now I'm chasing a 71 C-10 for parts for my 71 and it would be the obvious doner for this truck.

[Steve@OldSub.com]

I too own a '51 4400. I've had mine more like five years but its just sat out back the entire time. No pictures handy but aside from being blue, still having an old flatbed on it, and having a headache rack it looks just like yours.

My first response was to tell you that C10 stuff is too light for this purpose but as I started gathering the numbers to make the argument I decided the real response is you're building a toy that hopefully will never be asked to carry a load.

These trucks with no bed weigh over 4,200 pounds with a GVWR of 12,000. A '71 C10 weighs somewhere in the mid 3,000 pounds range with a GVWR of under 5,000. Those C10 numbers are actually based on a '72 and are from memory so they could be a little off...

Even though its a doable combination if it were me I'd look for at least C20 stuff for the bigger brakes because even shorted 4 feet its going to be like driving the C10 loaded all the time. That frame is 8-7/8ths tall of pretty think steel.

My current thinking on my '47 COE project is to move the cab to a '72 C10 frame I have. But at the same time I'm wanting to move the front brakes and the rear axle from a P30 onto the C10 frame. I'll have dually hubs and brakes designed for 12,000 pounds on what should weigh at most a little more than the stock C10. If it doesn't like the load my current thought is to replace the coils with bags. That might be an alternative for you too if the truck is too heavy for the C10 suspension.

I expect the front brake changeover will mean changing from the a-arm shafts out but right now I don't know that for sure.

I'm thinking this route because I want to use the 8-lug 18 inch dually wheels that were used on 1-ton dually at the time. I won't have a 12,000 gvwr because the wheel and tire combination wont' be rated for that, and since I'm using a 1/2-ton frame it really wouldn't be up for it either.

I will have more than enough braking to feel good about that part.

So have you crawled under the truck and studied the part of the frame that is directly over the stock front suspension? On the 1/2-ton and 3/4-ton trucks where people call this a bolt-in swap that area is pretty much flat making it easy to match up the IFS, drill some holes, and be done.

On a 1-ton that part of the frame is very much curved and attaching the IFS requires adapting a flat surface to a curved surface. I've seen a couple people do it with bar stock spacers that to me look like stress fractures waiting to happen. I made a spacer plate that matches the frame on the top and is flat on the bottom.

I don't know from memory what you'll see on the 4400 but unless its basically flat and parallel to the ground you will need to make something of the sort I did to make sure you're mounting isn't a likely point of failure and to get your caster anywhere near the right angle.

My two cents regarding your project....

[mr48chev]

I haven't been under the front end yet Steve, I hauled it home a few weeks ago and have too many other things going right now. I'll just have to cross that bridge when I get to it and may flatten the bottom rail of the frame in that area.
This is going to be a light duty truck with a big truck attitude and isn't intended to be a heavy hauler. I just decided to try the stock frame because the one under it is untouched and in great condition. No scabs and no welding or extra stuff on it.
The plan is to build it and hope someone falls in love with it when it is up and running.

I'll probably go with the 71 C-20 pieces if I get that particular truck for parts for my 71. I need to sell enough stuff at the swapmeet in Yakima this Saturday to swing that.

I did measure my frame that is going under the 48 at the spot that the spring would cross under it and it is 28 inches wide at that spot.
/

Note that this is a GMC frame that I am using and you can id the GMC front crossmember here. That will be swapped for a Chevrolet crossmember in a few weeks most likely. That frame is getting a Welders Series MII crossmember though as the truck is going to be very low and haul nothing except a couple of duffel bags and lawn chairs.

[Steve@OldSub.com]

This was the best picture I could find to illustrate some of my points. This is also a GMC frame and has that same crossmember. But it is a 1-ton frame and you can see how the shape of the frame is not flat in the area where it needs to meet up the IFS crossmember.

The 1-ton frame is made of stuff 7/32nds thick and is really quite tough. I think the 4400 frame is the same material but with bigger channel.



You can see here an early version of the adapter mount I've built to fill the grap between the frame and the IFS. On the driver's side I've extended it forward to also form the steering box mount, and though not visible in the pictures it is all folded under the frame to provide both additional stiffness and more mounting.

I plan to extend backward and also integrate the upper shock mount into the adapter.

The passenger side is similar though instead of the steering box it mounts the idler arm.

It extends far enough forward underneath on both sides to be the basis or the sway bar mounting also.

Some but not all of the trucks using this IFS have support struts going forward from the middle of the IFS to the frame on each side. I plan to use that idea also, even though my IFS did not originally use it.

If you've seen me mention a '54 GMC 1-ton trailer puller project with Cadillac power you've now seen the frame as it looked a few months ago. It has not advanced at all but since I needed to disasemble much of it for cleaning anyway I pulled both from and rear suspension and stood this on its side in the stall. Pushed the suspension all to the front and crammed my Suburban into this stalll for storage while I have to be away.

I'm eager to get back to my shop and back to work on this project!

[mobileortho]

Originally Posted by Steve@OldSub.com

Thanks Robert! Now we just need to finish our truck projects!

Man I'm trying! The plan now is to have it on the road by the July 4th. Of course I had hopes of being done by, Memorial Day.... or was it St. Patricks Day.... no wait, it was Jan. 2010. Oh heck, I don't know when it'll be ready!!

[winchster]

Steve, I have not forgotten you. We had an accident the day we swapped out frames and I did not have an opportunity to remove the plates. I have gotten in touch with Kevin, and as soon as we are able we, he or I one, will ship you the plates. If you will pm or email me (winchster94@gmail.com) your address, I will make sure they get sent.

On a personal note, I am super happy that you can count yourself a survivor. Congratulations.

[mr48chev]

Thanks Steve, those photos give me a good heads up at what I am looking at on this thing.

[Dan Bowles]

I'd like to thank all of you guys for the work you've done here and I hope Steve keeps improving. I'm starting on my son's 49 1 ton and have lots of questions about clearance etc because the PO put a 79 Heavy Half under it and super welded everything in place BUT didn't have a steering box on it. Now I have to figure out how to make it all fit.

I started a new thread before I found this one again but if Winchester has shots of his spacers and Steve gets a chance to think about his plates, I'd appreciate the info! I've done S10 swaps and messed around with stockers but this is my first 1 ton and my first C10 IFS. If I had another frame, I wouldn't be messing with the C10 but it is IN THERE!! The PO worked heavy construction and one of the bridge welders put the steel on. Definitely knew his stuff...it ain't going to come off easy.