DYNO numbers for the 408SBC

[68 C-10 KID]

Well the numbers were disappointing. I'm not sure what to think about this. I came into this thinking I was going to make over 600hp because of the dyno results from the last motor.
Either I Really messed up on the cam combo or the previous guys dyno was way off and old junk.

The new motor went from a .030 bore to a .040, titanium retainers, rebuilt heads, bigger cam, fully ported intake to match cylinders heads and 1 7/8" to 2" headers.
So take a look and tell me what you think. The pulls on the graph are the single quad and the second is the dual quad. I have more info sheets if ya want to see them let me know. We did a total 10 pulls.

[Marv D]

One thing for sure Mike, you have a reputable baseline now. Not all dyno's are created equal and the SuperFlo is the best I have found to be repeatable. The rpm per second clinb, the pump valving, everything is controled by the computer, no man intervention closing valves by hand etc. Wether the old was generous and gave better 'numbers' or what isn't really issue. You tuned the motor to makes best power. Now put it to the real test ,, the time slip.
We don't race dyno sheets.

I'm not surprised at the 'trend' of the dyno sheet. Honestly our little 23° small blocks are typically all done around 6600. But depending on cam and heads,, yeah I might expect more out of it. What is the combination? compression, heads, cam, etc???

But,,, given we got what we got,, Launch at 4500, hopefully you have a 5000stall so you flash up around 5200-5300ish.... shift around 7000-7200 to put a buttload of torque under the curve,,,, cross at 6600-6700 and see what's in it 'really'

[68 C-10 KID]

Marv,
you make me crack up laughing, I like your thought on we don't race dyno sheets. You are correct, the first dyno numbers were from a hand operated controls and after talking to my machinist he said the same thing as you.

The motor is the .040 over bore flat tops (11.6 comp), 6" rod, steel crank, AFR 227 ready to race heads w/ with Jessel 1.6 shaft mounts, intake is the Brodix HV1000 ported to match heads (950) HP, or the pro-dominator (old 750 hp) cam is a Oregon cam grind.
Attatched is a cam copy and the EGT's from the single carb and the dual quads.

Marv, with last years motor the converter would flash to 4600 on the trans brake. This year we will soon find out. I took your advice from long ago and went with a much wider tire and 4:56's so I'm not beating my self at the 60' and not crossing the strip at such a low rpm.
I hope with the new tire I can turn off launch control and let the the suspension and tires do the work.

[Marv D]

Remember these are just my thoughts and observations. Some of my junk runs good, some of this crap never did run right. So take it all with a grain of salt.

A couple of things,, I'm surprised at the note to run a cast iron gear!!! interesting!
Not be it for me to question the experts there because cam design surely is rocket science these days. But that puppy looks dang close to the Crower I'm running in
this 13.5:1 , 666HP , 434 I just stuffed in the truck. Here's the cam card.

[edit, man those scans were STUPID huge,, changed this to links instead of embedded images]

http://small-block-chevy.com/images/662010/434001.jpg

Looks pretty darn close eh!


I did see a couple of things that maybe they just didn't have time to smooth out or that tunners preferance. Your a little lean up in the HP peak. It takes burning fuel to make power,, I'd be curious to see what happenes if AF was more in the 12.8 - 13.0 range up high.

I'm running Crower 1.55 shaft rockers on AFR 220 's that makes lift about the same.
With less head, and .25" more stroke, more compression,, heres the dyno sheet (incidently from a SuperFlo 901 so were talking apples and apples)

http://small-block-chevy.com/images/662010/434002.jpg

The EGT's are not really comparative, where you place the bung in the dyno headers will make small differences. But across the board your dyno was making some big heat. Heat is power,, but it could be because it's lean, different EGT placement,, who knows but heres the EGT's for that pull.

http://small-block-chevy.com/images/662010/434003.jpg

(incidently induction was a Holley ProRam and a pair of out of the box Proform 750's. They were pig fat out of the box and took 6 pulls and drilling our own air bleeds to get the fuel curve straightened out)

Does any of that help,, heck I don't know but gives you somethng to scratch the head over.

[68 C-10 KID]

Those specs are dang close on the cam card. I also noticed your break specific was higher.
I'm learning all of this AF/EGT/bSFC and stuff as I go. I have always tuned off spark plug and MPH.
I think I'm going to take off the quad intake and run the ported single quad and jet it up like you mentioned to get the ratio were it needs to be. The single had 78-79's in it. I will go to 80 squared.
It seemed to me the single made better power in my operating range.
I'm still torn. I want to run the dual quads for the go fast factor.

Thanks for all you incite Marv its appreciated.

[68 C-10 KID]

Marv,
Good news I Put the bug out there on the previous Dyno from last
Motor. Looks like the last motor was about 60HP high.
So if this is true I made about 39 HP more with the single 4 and about 50 HP with the dual quads!
Looks like it's time to stuff this motor in and drop the trans brake
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[shawnt]

Headers are to big IMO. I think the 1 7/8 would have been enough. Did you try dyno with the 1 7/8? Just curious.
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[68 C-10 KID]

Nope just the step headers. I read a bunch of articles and big tubes made power so I didn't think about swapping. Plus trying 2 different intake set ups I didnt want to pull the guts out of the motor.
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[vin63]

X2 what Marv noted. Unless you know for certainty what the correction factors are between the dyno programs, it's very difficult to compare, so I use them as a relative tool to establish my baseline. Looking over your cam card, I am quite impressed with the numbers your combo logged. Time to run it and compare the ETs and MPH.

[68 C-10 KID]

Thanks vin63,

I should have the motor in, gears swapped and new front springs in this weekend.

I asked around and had a friend ask around. The dyno that the last motor combo was on constantly dyno's motors out on the high side consecutively. Its a hand controlled unit and very old.

I have a all new found respect for what it takes to build big power with a SBC.

[68 C-10 KID]

Originally Posted by Marv D

A couple of things,, I'm surprised at the note to run a cast iron gear!!! interesting!

Marv the cam actually has a pin on gear that allows me to run the cast gear.

[Marv D]

Mike,, I'm gonna say something you may one day HATE me for..... get a data logger!!!

I can see your one that loves to dig deep into getting all the bugs and kinks worked out and bringing it to a nice sharp tune. You would LOVE having about 25 or channels of data to look at and tweak the tune to a razors edge after every pass.

I went the cheap (yeah right) route with a Edelbrock QuickData about 5 years ago for the Nova. I just bought another Q-data Drag packages from Greg Kelly at Motorsports Innovations (he's a YellowBullet regular). There around $1200 if he has one left, you will drive yourself totally CRAZY with data to keep it tuned as close as the Dyno.

The basic Drag package and add a pair of Innovate LC-1 WB o2's and you can log:
2- EGT's,
two O2's,
oil & water temp,
fuel & oil psi,
Engine & driveshaft rpm (see what stall and flash your 'really' getting')
Battery, Tbrake on /off Line lock on/off
(for us Throttle stop guys,, time on and off the stop)
Plenty of additional pure digital in and out channels (like set up a channel as a low oil psi warning)
And a 2-axis accelerometer (now That will tell you if the track is hooking or not LOL)

You can set the sample rate at 500hz and log rate at the same or average the samples and log to 50hz. It's pretty awesome!!! All I can say is Data is more addictive than N2o or crack cocaine LOL.

I'm not a fan of the Edelbrock stuff, but it's $1200 for most the same data the Dyno logs, but you relate it to EVERY time slip. (FYI for the same data channels and sensors in Racepak you'd be $3500 MINIMUM into it). Edelbrock just launched a new Q-data 2 line and it's NO real bargain. In fact it's pretty STUPID expensive and is no longer a alternative to Racepak. But if you can get on of those original Drag/Bracket kits,, you will everything you need to keep it running perfect.


Sorry, I couldn't stand it. I saw one of the Q-data bracket kits on Greg's site and just had to come taunt you.

[vin63]

Originally Posted by 68 C-10 KID

...I asked around and had a friend ask around. The dyno that the last motor combo was on constantly dyno's motors out on the high side consecutively. Its a hand controlled unit and very old.

I have a all new found respect for what it takes to build big power with a SBC.

Yep, I've seen some dyno programs have correction factors as high as 12% for things like frictional losses, and a myriad of other things, so it makes it really difficult to compare. Keep us posted on your testing.

[68 C-10 KID]

Shoot Marv, how do you know me so well?
I was already looking into a data log tach and I was looking at a Innovate system. Just need a aux box to go with it.
Of course if you think that Q-data Drag package is a much better way to go.

[Super73]

Like MArv said, data is addictive. I still go back and look at data from 3 combos ago. Mind you, mine doesn't have ALL the data MArv mentioned, but being an LS set up, anything with a sensor has the ability to be logged, so I still get a lot. Can't wait to see what the new combo runs!!

[Marv D]

The only problem I have with Innovates stuff is the data rate. It's Sloooowwwwww, and a bit limited. I think 1/20 second is the max data rate. Their LC-1's are what i use to log O2 in both collectors (feeding data to ther Q-data to log). But the LM package didn't impress me. (but that's just me,, lots of guys swearing by it)

The 'new' series Q-data is the berries, but is stupid expensive. I don't get it,, if there trying to compete with Racepak,, they should be cheaper!!!!

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_.../qd2_acc.shtml

For my money the old Q-data if Greg has one left is the best value. Greg has same sensors Edelbrock supplies to replace / upgrade / add to that is a big savings over the Edelbrock repackaged price. (i.e. 2 rare earth magnets from Edelbrock cost me $43 with shipping from Edelbrock,, same cost me $9 from Greg) It's not the best out there for sure, and their software is pretty limited. But pricewise the basic drag package offered the most (included) sensors / and channels for the money (in a 500Hz sample / log rate) box. I am stuck on the sample / log rate because of timing throttle stops / shifts / nitrous or whatever. Were trying to race to 1/100 of a second. Logging data and events to 1/20 of a second seems just wrong to me.

Here's Gregs store link and if anyone has one left,, I'm betting he does, or knows ho may.

http://www.motorsportsinnovations.co...3%20components

Another interesting newcomer on the market is Performance Trends just jumped into the datalogging market.(I think Shaun tiped me off on this) Their stuff isn't super quick in log rate, but I think it might be a decent package if your not index racing. I REALLY like the SD card memory and the prices.
http://performancetrends.com/drag_racing_datamite.htm

All in all,, and unfortunately,,, Racepak is the standard everything else is measured to. Racepak is to datalogging what MSD is to ignition, or Holley is to carburators. It's the best, bar none, the elite,, the top of the heap.... and the most frickin expensive!! Hard to justify $3k to $5k for a data logging setup unless you have SERIOUS stuff at risk. But you have to look...

http://www.racepak.com/Drag_Racing/

Like everything else,, basic Sportsman starter kit is almost tolerable, then to add everything you need,, OUCH!!!!! Racepak really hammers you for modules and sensors.

[nxtruck]

Mike,
Your results don't look too bad to me. 576 and 508 ( w/the single carb.) out of a small cammed, pump gas-burning small block are pretty respectable numbers in my book. If it were mine, I'd leave the single carb on it and see what happens. Like Marv said, we don't race dynos. That motor ought to be very drivable and, judging by your cam specs, pretty easy on springs. Your cam is very close to the one in my 434. It should work pretty well with some spray, BTW.
All in all, I think you've done very well and am anxious to see what it runs!!

[68 C-10 KID]

Marv,
That 1st kit sound like one heck of a deal. like you said that race pack is nice but dang they kill the pocket book for the extras. look like I need to jump on the overtime band wagon and save some cash up for a new TOY! For now I'll pick up that innovate from a friend cheap. learn what all the numbers mean and go from there.

nxtruck,
Thanks. I should have it up and driving this weekend. I just hope the new headers fit! If not I guess the Nova gets them.

I bought some quick fuels metering blocks for the twin 750's
Being they are the old style. The rear blocks did not have a power valve revision on them. I hate running a plug and staggered jetting. I think with a little power tuning at the track I can get the TQ and HP up easy.

[Marv D]

If you are thinking about trying one of the old Q-data packages,, better find one and get it purchased. Edelbrock moved to this new Q-data-s and it's easily 2x the cost. Maybe 3. If Greg can put together one from his stock, or see what you cvan find. There few and far between because everyone has seen the cost of the alternatives!

A buddy of mine runs a nitrous big block and uses a BIG package of the Innovate stuff for logging and he loves it. He's buddys with Klaus and I think is a distributor for them or something. If you really want to go that way in new,, let me know and I'll see what relationship he has there. Might be some savings in it. For strictly tunning,,it's probably everything you'd ever need. For messing with timers and such,,, it (like so many) and does not have the sample / log rate to be that usefull IMO. But lots of guys use it so what do I know.

One thing I wish, was that all of the data loggers and ECMs would speak one simple language, and SOMEONE would write a DECENT program to view / analyze / compare the logs. Edelbrocks software sucks, I've seen Racepak and I'm not overly impressed with it either. I bet the Performance Trend stuff has a great software paclage. If them and Innovate would get together, and speed up the system,, they'd have a winner for sure!

YUP,, I think you need to just get this thing together and get some laps to start working the bugs out of the combination and see where it takes you. Trust me,, save the whole data logger fopr a winter project. It's not as simple as tossing in a few sensors and plugging them in to a box. The wiring on one of these things can get pretty intense.

[68 C-10 KID]

Thanks for the heads up Marv.

[68 C-10 KID]

I got the truck down to the shop today to start the 4 step process: gears,Motor,springs and headers.
I took apart the filter and cleaned it. Wow amazing what the filter picks up.
I can't believe the crap from the break in and assembly.

I got the trucks diff all torn down, cleaned and ready for the gear swap. Tomorrow I should have it buttoned up and the motor set in.
The good news is that the new wheel and tire combo fits.

[68 C-10 KID]

The motor is alive and runs great. I never thought dual quads could operate on the street so well, the motor has crazy good throttle response.

http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o...t=IMG_0050.mp4

[djracer]

Sweet. Time to get it to the track for some new ET's.

[Marv D]

That sounds SCHWEET,, Love the sound of a serious motor through mufflers. Nothing compares.

I have a question,,, what have you came up with to run for air cleaner for the street? I built something out of lexan that works for what little street driving the ol 66 sees and to keep the dust storms on the outside. Just curious what ingenious creations others are coming up with for a 2x4 in street / strip trim.

[limitedstreetoutlaw]

Truck sounds good