New vs. building old one

[ghettoluxury]

I am going to say BUILD. I have 2 old trucks, a 79 step side that is a daily driver and a 88 crew cab that is my project. The crew has been fighting me since I bought it. Hell, the motor threw a rod through the oil pan the day I picked it up. I have been able to find the parts cheep and since January I only have $2500 in it, including the purchase of the truck. When the crew is done the way I want it I will have less than $10,000 in it and have something much nicer than what is sitting on the dealers lot.

My stepside is 32 years old an is still rockin the original drive line. I use it every day and make 600+ mile trips in it with out problems. The key to these old trucks is propper mantinance. They need a little more attention than the new ones, but you know what you have and what to expect from it. If you treat the old girls right they will always do what you ask of them.

To go from this

to this for a total of $2500 is awsome

[camshaftgsxr]

with enough hush mat, a/c, leather burb seats and new suspension and steering components you are looking at a ride and comfort level of any new truck, i personally want a 99-02 1500 stepper as a daily, but thats only because i hate having to drive my project when i need to go somewhere, i drive an 87 bmw around every where because with the gas i save i can afford to work on my truck more

[C-10 simplex]

Lots of good points so far.


My take on the topic:

i would love to have a new truck, but the numbers don't pencil out; An equivalent or better to a new stripper 1500 W/T v-6 model (i don't think silverado comes with v-6?) could be built for no more than $5000 total and probably less than that.


2) Only disadvantages to older:

No air bags. The chances of ever needing these are slim, but if you are in that situation, air bags are the best thing to have.

No anti lock brakes. Not such a big deal in my opinion.

Even without air bags i think a newer car/truck cab has better crash integrity/design.

But those are the only real disadvantages to older in my opinion.

3) Another good thing about "older" trucks (especially non-computerized) is that if the engine quits, you can drop "any old" small block in there and be up and running in probably 8 hours or less. These engines can be found running on craigslist/salvage yard etc. for $100-$400. Let's say your newer 2007 truck's motor seizes. It's out of warranty. What are you going to do?



4) Another thing to consider is the issue of "current technology maintenance." For example, the GM Throttle body injection of 87 to 95ish(?) was/is a very good system. However, how many techs at the dealer RIGHT NOW are really familiar with this and can actually fix it?

What i'm trying to say is after your newer truck becomes 7-10 yrs old the technology has undoubtebly changed and it's not cost-effective for the dealership to train techs on older systems because they may not see that type of car but 1-2 times a month. So let's say you end up with a 2002 silverado---not real old, but not really "current" either. Can the techs or anyone else for that matter fix this?

Carburetor technology is simple and straightforward to understand to the point where you really don't need to "bring it in" to the dealer to get it fixed because you can do it yourself. Or even if you did bring it in, someone at the dealer will know how to fix it because these systems were so overwhelmingly common and stable (as compared to FI technology which constantly changes).


i don't feel a person should even think about buying a new car unless their liquid net worth is at least $110K plus the cost of the car.

[VegasBruce]

I bought my 73 in 84, for a $1000. Since then I have driven it 400,000 miles on 3 engines, 4 transmissions and 3 rearends. The frame has been welded up 3 times, due to abusing it in the desert. Last Dec, I drove it to Texas and back a 3000 mile round trip with no problems. It needs some bodywork and paint, along with a new A/C setup. However I still don't have anywhere near 25 grand in it.




I have however in the last few years, started using a Harley for a DD.

[tucsonjwt]

I think apples to apples comparison is in order. If you strip an old square down to the frame, then rebuild it totally from scratch, you likely will be well over $10K - even doing all of the work yourself, which is not likely for the average bear. This assumes that you replace everything that is worn out or marginal - which most parts will be after 30 years on the road. This would be a comparison between a brand new and "like new" old truck.
If you buy an old truck for $2-$5K and replace parts as they actually fail, then you are into $500-$1000+ per year in maintenance - but you have a fixed up old truck which will always need more repairs/restoration as the years go by. I am not saying buying an old square is bad, just that fixing one up is not the same as buying a new truck and taking care of it. Some are lucky and have old trucks that never need repairs - but not me. Financially, I still think new truck vs. old truck that is well restored and cared for is a wash at best. And as we have seen, your restored old truck will depreciate just like a new truck. Each to his or her own.

[WarBeard]

Originally Posted by meter swinger

He asked me "what the hell are you doing in that gas hog?" i just laughed and shook my head. Some people will never get it.
Posted via Mobile Device

I get that all the time when filling up My suburban. I sink $100 at the fuel pump and some guy comes up to me with his Tacoma and says ''I bet its a pain funding that tank!''

''I say $200 a month in fuel and $25 a month on insurance!''
''What are you paying?'' I ask.. He says $450 a monthly payment $150 a month in fuel and $100 a month on full coverage insurance!!!!!!

I just laughed and pointed at his face!

[C-10 simplex]

RE: apples to apples:

i should have been clearer. What i meant by "equivalent" was functionality--the "older" pickup will do everything the new pickup can do including possibly getting within 1-2 mpg of the newer drivetrain and in some cases exceeding it. And be just as dependable if not more than the new truck.

Now, yes, if you want everything about the old truck looking and smelling "new" then yes, it will take money and time (which is money) and effort. In this case, plan on spending much more than the $5K i quoted.

[old Rusty C10]

i dunno about how some of you guys drive but the liability insurance on my old truck is more than on the brand new truck ( it will do more damage in an accident and injuries are worse with the old metal ) i pay $900 a year for full coverage on the new truck.. i have never filed a claim on any of my vehicles that the insurance company could not subrogate from the other person , and ive never had to file any kind o f theft claim or anything.. therefore its still cheaper to run a new truck than an old gas hog

[Hubscrub]

Payments? whats that? i drive all old stuff always have i came close to buying a newer truck but i got smart and didn't after doing some numbers. I drive a 97 truck everyday everywhere drove it to Oklahoma, Missouri,Kansas, Illinois, and Florida in the last year. i drive an 85 4x4 regularly too and a 71. I see all the people at work working extra overtime working themselves to death to pay for there new camaros, trucks etc. I walk out debt free and try to enjoy life instead of working.

[WarBeard]

I pay $17 each a month for three vehicles thru state farm

91 Jeep Cherokee
89 Suburban
98 Nissan 200sx

[cjlinkster]

I think that it also depends on if you make a living from the truck. If I had to meet and pickup clients, I would have to have a very decent looking truck. Truck guys, such as member here, all think that old trucks are cool! However Joe public, may thank that an old truck is another type of sign.

Also for business owners, it would just be another write off for them to buy a new truck (easier to depreciate new items vs restored old).

That's not my situation though. Thankfully my truck is just for wheeling around on weekends. Cheap, old and functional trucks are alright with me.

[tucsonjwt]

Functional equivalent old truck will require more money spent on repairs. How much more money is a guess. However, you typically would not spend money on collision/comprehensive insurance because of the low value of the vehicle. It is possible to get an old truck for $5K which requires few repairs, but this is always a crap shoot. Most $5,000 vehicles will require repairs. If you drive a lot, like 10K miles per year or more, then an old gas hog is not a good choice, unless you really need to haul/tow with your vehicle. A small economy car is a better choice. I am not trying to dissuade anyone from buying an old square, just pointing out the true cost of ownership.

[C-10 simplex]

1) RE: insurance: That's strange---i only pay around $428(will check the exact amt later) a year for a 83 1/2 ton. Maybe new york is different?


2) i have to say that with a 73-91 that in terms of functionality there is NO WAY you'll spend 19K or whatever the price of a new 1500 w/t v-6 model is. Unless you hired out all the work, but even then......

i've spent $1500 for the initial cost of the truck and no more than $1000 for parts and repairs. In terms of total cost i will say that i took 3 weeks off from work to try to fix a misdiagnoised "head gasket" problem which was actually the trans vacuum modulator----a 15 min fix. So about $3000 in missed wages.

So total about $5500 for something that WILL do anything/everything the v-6 base stripper truck and even more upscale trucks will do with the exception of air bags and easy turn key starting and idle control. To be fair it starts up fairly easy too, just not as easy as fuel injection.

In all fairness, i had a spare 305 sitting in the garage when the 350 blew up. So we'll factor in an additional $400. Still $6000 is less than $19,000 plus tax.

i would still love a new truck though, even a stripper model.

[tucsonjwt]

Liability insurance varies based on the coverage limit - state minimum to millions of dollars of liability protection. Location makes a big difference also, and not having any traffic tickets, etc. has the biggest impact on premium cost. I have always had just liability coverage on my old trucks to match the liability coverage limit on my new vehicles. Old geezers like me pay much less on insurance, but we paid through the nose for decades earlier.

I agree that most old engines and transmissions will function (usually leaking) for a lot of years and miles without much work, unless driven long and hard. All of the other parts to get a truck "looking nice" will drive up the cost in a hurry. I cheaped out on an interior on my 83 and it was still about $800. I could have avoided that cost, or done it even cheaper, and it would still "function" without it - but I would not say that a crappy interior is still the "functional equivalent" of a new stripper interior.

So, if you put $6,000 into a stripper costing $19,000 out the door, you would have $13,000 to finance. Finance it on a 60 month loan, and you would have a payment of $136.73 per month, with a balloon payment due at the end of 60 months of $6262 - which will be equal to (or probably less than) the price you could sell the the truck for (unless you really trashed it.) That works out to about $1600 per year to drive a new truck (minus your gas savings compared to an old truck, plus any additional license cost, plus any collision/comprehensive insurance you will have to have on a new truck (about $250 additional per year in my case).

For me, driving an old truck vs. driving a new truck is a wash - except I can't trash a new truck and retain any value, and I can use the old truck any way I want and it won't affect its already low value.

[irishman999]

Here's my Dads 77 C-10 he has been driving since it was new.



This is the reason I picked up the 85, he told me that every dime you sink into the truck pays off. He has been driving this truck for well over 30 years using it for towing and still takes it on occasional trips. He rebuilt the 350 some time in the early 90's and so far the only overhaul we had to do was a valve job about 6 years ago. Up until recently the Ac blew ice cold and is actually comfortable to drive.

[Axle]

Originally Posted by old Rusty C10

i dunno about how some of you guys drive but the liability insurance on my old truck is more than on the brand new truck ( it will do more damage in an accident and injuries are worse with the old metal ) i pay $900 a year for full coverage on the new truck.. i have never filed a claim on any of my vehicles that the insurance company could not subrogate from the other person , and ive never had to file any kind o f
theft claim or anything.. therefore its still cheaper to run a new truck than an old gas hog

Depends on where you live. Here, the older the vehicle gets, the lower the insurance rate gets until it hits minimums as a daily driver. Back in 1990, a 1983 C10 $350/6mo, 1985 C10 $574/6mo. Brand new 1990, ~$700. Full coverage, quote gotten at the same time, only item changed was the year of the trucks.
Between the '83 and '85 alone that was $400/year difference thats going to fund ME instead of going to an insurance company. That pays for lots of gas, lots of oil in 1990 dollars, and both trucks would have gotten the same sort of mods over time, so modifications are a wash.
Last summer, a two year old Ranger would be double what I am paying now (yes, I was looking at the dark side) for the exact same coverage. How insurance determines rates where you live is a big factor to take into account when picking a vehicle.

Originally Posted by irishman999

This is the reason I picked up the 85, he told me that every dime you sink into the truck pays off. He has been driving this truck for well over 30 years using it

He's absolutely right. I worked out what I spend on my truck over the years (have had it 21 years now) and my grand total (not including gas or insurance) is about what a new one would cost. Plus, I've had fun with engine and trans swaps, and I do not need to be bothered with e-tests, or voiding warrantees.

Alex.

[DetroitDan]

I think about this topic constantly. I've owned (well I guess that's not the right word) several new trucks, and the more they cost and the more they change, the more I like old stuff. I have built several old squares myself, sort of an amateur driveway restoration I guess you could call it. Never wanted to make one so super nice icouldn't work it or take it in the woods, but I do like a pretty, shiny truck. I have found it always is cheaper to rebuild and maintain an old square. You just have to know how to work on them, and lets face it, anyone can work on a 73-87 Chevy. If you have a 1/2, a 9/16 and a screwdriver you can completely disassemble and reassemble one on the side of the road. Parts are dirt cheap. And what I dont think has been mentioned is the satisfaction of making something with your hands. Just today an old buck outside Walmart complimented me on my truck. It isn't a show truck, but when I pull up to the pumps (which is often) or park somewhere with some new fancy trucks, my truck ALWAYS draws attention from truck guys, who will totally ignore the $40,000 luxo-pickup parked beside it.
I recently had my starter break and engage while towing my camper on vacation. Took me 5 minutes and two wrenches to remove it, got a ride to the nearest VIP and turned it in as a core on a new rebuilt, $25.49 in stock, 5 minutes to install and underway again. Yeah, it sucked breaking down on vacation, but it was cool being able to fix it myself, that cheap and that fast. Most newer trucks and owners would have needed a tow for both the truck and the trailer, to a garage that isn't open because its Saturday afternoon, blow your vacation til it's fixed on Monday, few hundred bucks for the tow, new starter and markup, plus labor.
If I could afford a new truck payment, I would love to take that money and spend it on my truck every month. But I don't. I don't spend much money at all. I am into my truck for near $3000 and drive it every day, and it's good enough looking to garner compliments. I'd really like to find a way to spend new-truck money on my project, because for far less than a new stripper v6, I would have an incredible ride. Almost makes it seem like that $3000 Gear Vendor would be worth it, looking at it that way. Would put my fuel mileage on a par with a new v8 truck. Much of what I've put on my truck is good used parts that I scrounged by being able to utilize Craigslist and other sources.
Lastly, who the hell wants to drive a v6 stripper? That's a throwaway truck. And I think we all know that not only do the old squares last longer, you can keep rebuilding them cheaper and get even more out of it. My truck is 30 years old and still far better than a new cheapy. Take your new truck, even a nice v8 crewcab, and come see me in 30 years, and tell me what's left of it and how much you spent.
I gotta stop now; I could go on for hours!

[DetroitDan]

stopped for gas today (imagine that!) and got a thumbs up from a guy in a straight-piped cummins, then a guy in a 90s Chevy said "wow that thing is a beast!".

[tucsonjwt]

Detroit Dan -I wouldn't count too much on that Gear Vendor. I have one in my granny 4 speed 454 with 4.10 axle, and you might get their 20% improvement in gas mileage on the highway but it won't help your city mileage at all. I only drive in the city, so it is not doing me much good. On the highway the difference for me is from 11 mpg to 13 mpg, so I still have a gas hog. A new V8 truck would be in the 19-21 mpg highway range. Of course, an old 1/2 ton square 350 with overdrive transmission and low number rear axle ratio should get 15-16 highway, so if you drive a lot of highway then the fuel savings on a new truck are not that great - unless you buy a new Ford F150 V6. If you really want a Gear Vendor you can find them rebuilt on Ebay in the $1500-$2000 range + adapter and driveshaft mod. Or, I have read that Gear Vendor will rebuild your used unit for $850.
Having owned a lot of new GM trucks and SUVs, I can tell you that they do have problems like any vehicle. However, you can use your free GM road service and have it towed to the dealer and get your free loaner vehicle from the dealer if the repairs take more than one day. I have never had a breakdown on a new vehicle that rendered it undriveable, just not running right.
If you like spending your time on fixing an old truck (as you obviously do), then an old truck is the way to go. I tolerate working on an old truck but it is not my favorite thing to do, but I will likely always have an old truck because I need a vehicle for hauling, dump truck, going to the landfill,etc., and a new truck is not the right vehicle for these tasks. If I had kept my 2000 V6 reg.cab long bed stripper (which was my first new vehicle) I think I would have been much better off financially, as opposed to buying another old square. I keep thinking that I have fixed everything that could possibly to wrong on my 83, then something else goes wrong. I have had it so long that the things I fixed once now need fixing a second time.

[DetroitDan]

I'll probably never buy a Gear Vendor anyway, because I never have that much money at one time. I spend money on my truck in $100 increments. But if I went from my current 9mpg to 12-13 I don't think I could complain about that, that's what the new trucks in my class are getting. At least they were last I knew. 6.0 and 8.1 liter 4wd crewcab HD trucks thru the mid 2000s were at 12. I worked at a place that ran a fleet of new 6.0 2500hds back in 05-06, we were working them pretty good, hauling and towing, but also a lot of highway, and they all got 11 mpg. If the newest GM trucks are getting 19-21 either it's news to me or it's a 1/2 ton. I was comparing my old 1 ton drw to a new(ish) HD truck.
I've been looking into swapping in a 4l80e, 700r4 or an NV4500, just to get some more gears. Believe it or not, more important than improving my lousy gas mileage, I want to change it just for driveability. I hate the 3 speed th400.
I can't do anything with a half ton.

[tucsonjwt]

Yes, I was talking about 19-21 hwy. for a 1/2 ton small block. With a 3/4 ton + you won't improve gas mileage much, but 20% with a GV on the highway is very possible. With a heavy truck you need a diesel to get good mpg., but the current 15% extra cost for diesel fuel cuts that advantage a lot. Everyone I know with a modern diesel gets 17 mpg combined, some only get that on the highway, although some get low 20s on highway only driving. Take 15% off that for the diesel extra cost and you get about 14.5 mpg effective cost mpg for combined diesel mileage.

[SSC's76]

Well it all depends on what you want the truck for and real expectations. My truck has been in the family since 77 my parents bought it a few months before i was born. Truck body and transmission have over 400,000 on it and thats no lie. 35 years old I would have no issue with taking it cross country would I rather drive some thing with ac and gets better mileage... yes of course but I would trust it to get me to where i need to go and back. 12,775 days give or take my truck has been on the road IIRC these ran about 7k new I dont know what my parents paid for it a year old but if my math is correct this truck original purchase price to date has been a tad below 2 cents a day 1.82. In another 35 years it will start paying for itself.

In reality if you have a truck that has everything you want in it and its paid for its going to be cheaper to replace worn parts then buy a new truck. New trucks depreciate where were at the point where if you have a factory condition 30 year old ride its worth more then what it cost new. I"m sure we have all seen our fair share of brand spanking new cars with the dealer tags broke on the side of the road. Break down happen dont matter if its old or new. If you cant trust a new power train to go 200 miles i dont know what to say we just made a camping run with the trailer attached my brother and his family came along with his 2010 ram 1500 extended cab 4 door about a 160 mile round trip. my truck not only outran him but got better fuel economy even with the trailer attached and dident even have to down shift on the nice huge mountain grades we have here in Colorado.

[gchemist]

Best of both worlds!
http://www.hotrodlane.cc/77chevytruck/77chevy.htm

[cable666guy]

I was just saying to my wife tonight, that if I could just make the payment, or just pay for the fuel, we would be ok. But in this economy, it's real hard to do both. When I bought my current truck in '07, diesel was priced between mid grade and hi grade gas, right around $2.60-$2.75. Now it's 30-40 cents more than hi grade. As soon as the tax refund comes next year, this truck goes down the road, and the payment with it. It's back to a square that I can fix myself w/o an engineering degree.
*Disclaimer: If my industry started booming again, I'd be the first one *****in about this crappy old truck, and how I should go and get a new one!!

[meter swinger]

Good points all around. Hard to compare old with new. When the ride is so differnt. My wife has a couple year old burb that still rides like new but leaks oil everywhere, i have a 59 shortbed that dosent leak a drop of anything, but will make you piss your pants in downtown traffic. My 73 travelall is 3" off the ground and cooler than sliced bread but i wouldnt drive it without my cell phone charged up. The 88 dualie sguare i just bought rides awesome and gets 9mpg running or not, but i dont care. The 78 shorty 2wd i just got on a trade ill probably sell cuz it has too many issues. And the maxima i drive 80 mi a day to work has 150k on it and will do 130 in the wide open desert. What the hell. Get a new one and build the old one. Then build the old one when you have the $$$. if its strictly a money comparison though, going old is the smart thing in my book. The trick with old cars is a good starting point. Full blown projects can be found on the cheap for a reason. Spend more $$$ up front and youll be father in the long run.
Posted via Mobile Device
Posted via Mobile Device