30 stupid restoration mistakes.....

[mobileortho]

Where was this when I started on mine??? I'm guilty of a few!

http://www.hotrod.com/features/1602-...to-avoid-them/

[roger55]

"When you remove the thermostat, coolant never has a chance to absorb engine heat, nor does it have a chance to give up heat to the atmosphere. On the open road you might be able to get away with it. In traffic, you will overheat and boil over."

Who writes these articles? Why do we assume that if it's written in a magazine, it's like a bible?

That statement is 100% false. Period.

Not saying we should run without a thermostat as they are very important. But, removing one will NOT cause overheating.

[dwcsr]

The thermostats real job is keeping a consistent minimum temperature so you have consistent performance. It does that by restricting flow. The theory as I understand it is that with the system under more pressure 10 to 14 psi caps, slowing the flow allows more heat to absorb into the pressurized coolant allowing more heat to be transferred to the core and into the air. The change of the inlet side Tstat is to further maintain a constant temp. Tstats, Restrictor plates and electric pumps all do the same thing as far as slowing the flow.

I can't think of an instance where removing a Tstat caused over heating. We make a PWM fan and water pump control that requires you remove the Tstat. The electric fan and electric pump controls the temp rise and fall by the speed of both the pump and fan, If removing a Tstat caused over heating this system would not work at all.

Some of these article are written by people that have never turned a wrench and just surf for their article tidbits.

[1project2many]

I can't think of an instance where removing a Tstat caused over heating.

I think this comes from race track experience, although the conclusion is wrong and the misinformation persists. Running without a restriction at the track can result in overheating. BTDT more than once in roundy-round racing, where the only allowed coolant is water. In this situation using a restrictor plate or a T-stat creates a slight positive pressure in the block and heads which can help to prevent boiling at hot spots. Often once a hot spot forms and coolant begins to vaporize at that spot, the result is continued heating through a larger area and greatly reduced cooling effectiveness. A restrictor can be especially helpful in castings with a relatively thin area between combustion area and cooling passages.

On street cars the only result I've ever seen of running no 'stat is insufficient heat in the cooling system. Usually a vehicle that overheats with no 'stat has other issues to address.

[dwcsr]

Originally Posted by 1project2many

I think this comes from race track experience, although the conclusion is wrong and the misinformation persists. Running without a restriction at the track can result in overheating. BTDT more than once in roundy-round racing, where the only allowed coolant is water. In this situation using a restrictor plate or a T-stat creates a slight positive pressure in the block and heads which can help to prevent boiling at hot spots. Often once a hot spot forms and coolant begins to vaporize at that spot, the result is continued heating through a larger area and greatly reduced cooling effectiveness. A restrictor can be especially helpful in castings with a relatively thin area between combustion area and cooling passages.

On street cars the only result I've ever seen of running no 'stat is insufficient heat in the cooling system. Usually a vehicle that overheats with no 'stat has other issues to address.

I would agree with this in the situation you describe and in Aluminum street engines with high HP. Track racing is about the only place I see restrictors. The slight pressure increase from a restrictor will allow for more heat absorption into the water.

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by roger55

"When you remove the thermostat, coolant never has a chance to absorb engine heat, nor does it have a chance to give up heat to the atmosphere. On the open road you might be able to get away with it. In traffic, you will overheat and boil over."

Who writes these articles? Why do we assume that if it's written in a magazine, it's like a bible?

That statement is 100% false. Period.

Not saying we should run without a thermostat as they are very important. But, removing one will NOT cause overheating.

I'd have to say you are wrong on that one. I've seen more than one rig have overheating problems for that exact reason. The coolant doesn't slow down long enough to adequately transfer the heat from the block and heads to the coolant nor does it transfer the heat to the air going through the radiator as well as it should.

I have had good luck with taking the guts out of the thermostat and just running the washer part though. That slows the flow rate down just enough to transfer the heat but doesn't block the flow at any time. Warm ups take a few minutes longer but the rig usually runs down the road with the temp gauge right where you want it to be. I've done that with rigs I tow with for years and outside of taking a bit longer to warm up on cool mornings never had an issue with overheating.

[mr48chev]

A few of those apply to anyone redoing a vehicle be it restoring it or modifying it.

number one Beginning Without a Plan is one of the biggest mistakes I see most guys make building AD trucks or doing any other car or truck project vehicle.

I'm more than guilty of number two "Disorganization" myself as I have a hard time staying organize on my projects.

Number 3 " Unsafe Support System" that goes without saying. You have to support any vehicle you work on or under safely.

number 4 " Not Doing Your Homework" we see that all the time when guys ask questions in the big middle of a project that should have been sorted out long before. Usually for me that means that I have to take something back off that I put on because it is in the way of something else that I need to put on or do.

"Buying an Unknown Engine" This doesn't apply often but I've had to tell more than one guy who bought a "got it at a great price" engine to me that it was junk or needed a complete rebuild because it was beyond worn out.

Most of the others things on that list only have a small value here but knowing what you are buying is one thing that guys need to do their homework on That especially comes into play if you are looking at buying what someone is saying is the hot lick engine, engine block or set of heads. Don't pay extra jusr because someone says that the part you are looking at is a hot lick performance part without knowing the casting numbers or other identifying features of said item and then deciding if the bragging rights are worth the asking price.

Reading down though that I'm reminded of the 69 Camaro that my best friend built for his daughter when she was in high school. He took a nice but plain 69 Camaro and added a cowl induction hood, all the proper Z28 emblems in and out and a few other trinkets and made a really great looking car out of it. Most of the local guys knew the car so it wasn't a big deal but he sold it to one guy who sold it to a third guy who got fighting mad when someone mentioned that it wasn't a genuine Z28. That guy even argued with my buddy when he showed up where my buddy worked at a Chevrolet dealership as the parts manager and my buddy told him that he was the one who had converted it to a clone.

[roger55]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

...The coolant doesn't slow down long enough to adequately transfer the heat from the block and heads to the coolant nor does it transfer the heat to the air going through the radiator as well as it should...

Breaks the laws of Thermodynamics. It's a closed system.
As the other guys pointed out, there can be a need to slow down the flow but it doesn't have to do with heat transfer from the block to the water or from the water to the radiator.

Here's a company that got it right:

https://www.flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/cooling_faq.html

[Softpatch]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

A few of those apply to anyone redoing a vehicle be it restoring it or modifying it.

number one Beginning Without a Plan is one of the biggest mistakes I see most guys make building AD trucks or doing any other car or truck project vehicle.

I'm more than guilty of number two "Disorganization" myself as I have a hard time staying organize on my projects.

Number 3 " Unsafe Support System" that goes without saying. You have to support any vehicle you work on or under safely.

number 4 " Not Doing Your Homework" we see that all the time when guys ask questions in the big middle of a project that should have been sorted out long before. Usually for me that means that I have to take something back off that I put on because it is in the way of something else that I need to put on or do.

"Buying an Unknown Engine" This doesn't apply often but I've had to tell more than one guy who bought a "got it at a great price" engine to me that it was junk or needed a complete rebuild because it was beyond worn out.

Most of the others things on that list only have a small value here but knowing what you are buying is one thing that guys need to do their homework on That especially comes into play if you are looking at buying what someone is saying is the hot lick engine, engine block or set of heads. Don't pay extra jusr because someone says that the part you are looking at is a hot lick performance part without knowing the casting numbers or other identifying features of said item and then deciding if the bragging rights are worth the asking price.

Reading down though that I'm reminded of the 69 Camaro that my best friend built for his daughter when she was in high school. He took a nice but plain 69 Camaro and added a cowl induction hood, all the proper Z28 emblems in and out and a few other trinkets and made a really great looking car out of it. Most of the local guys knew the car so it wasn't a big deal but he sold it to one guy who sold it to a third guy who got fighting mad when someone mentioned that it wasn't a genuine Z28. That guy even argued with my buddy when he showed up where my buddy worked at a Chevrolet dealership as the parts manager and my buddy told him that he was the one who had converted it to a clone.

.
I agree 110%
.
Having a plan or a "Vision" is key
.
Organization.Very helpful doesn't always work out
.
Doing your home work I Total agree and on this subject.....

Ok let me just say this about that.....

you spend hours of research to the point of saturation
you know the answer or you think you do because your researched it...
Just sometime you want to ask to get engage or to hear/read it again so you don't lose focus you need that feedback from like minded people.

..........................Guilty....................
I know how to wire up a one wire alternator
Torq a head on Or Firing order/pull a rear axle/set in a wheel bearing
Install wiper arms on a Fleetside
But I'm asking again......
" How to"
Because from the first ten time I've done it OR researched it
maybe someone has a small trick I could add
OR I want to engage in this community
OR I want affirmation I can't get from
(dog,girlfriend,brother,preist or whomever)
OR Flat out I just want enlightenment
.
This is no way an attack on you " mr48chev"

I value your opinion and many other members here
But sometime I just need to ask what seem like a no brainer
.
I know I have to many project....
And if anyone can tell me how to stop
finding more projects that would be helpful
maybe I just need to stop asking question


"who would buy that"

"what do you mean it doesn't run"

" why does it run"

"can I buy that"
.
" can I fix that"
.
"do I need/want that"
.................Sp
.

.
.
.

[Russell Ashley]

I think they overlooked the mistake that probably kills more restorations than anything else, and that is stripping it all apart down to the frame. This often happens shortly after buying it when the enthusiasm is running high and there are visions of that beautiful car/truck you saw at the car show running through your head.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Russell Ashley

I think they overlooked the mistake that probably kills more restorations than anything else, and that is stripping it all apart down to the frame. This often happens shortly after buying it when the enthusiasm is running high and there are visions of that beautiful car/truck you saw at the car show running through your head.

yes, this is the one. I can go in the project threads right now and pick out a dozen threads that start with instagram pictures of trucks in a field and the buzzwords "patina LS S10 bagged cool driver" and as soon as its apart it gets real. The threads havent been updated in months.

motivation is not what you need to finish a project, determination is. It helps to know exactly what you want and only make decisions based on that, which goes to planning. but tearing apart a truck is easy, putting it back together is harder, and changing it according to your plan is the hardest of all.

I remember coming home to a pile of wood trim in the driveway and my wife dusting her gloves saying "now you just need to put in the new trim" like her part, the demolition, was the hard part.

[speesh]

Never thought I'd see Hot Rod pushing Harbor Fright stuff..".Harbor Freight can help with just the right support equipment to get your body and chassis up in the air and keep it there."



O.k., I admit I have used some of their stuff...

[roger55]

I use HF stuff here and there. Some stuff is good some bad and some in between.
I have to say their jack stands are the worst ever. No way I would trust my life to them.
Bought a set once and they were so wobbly they went right back to the store.

[2tractors]

Russell hit the nail on the head and I would add ALL unfinished projects hit a SNAG so I would add " identify the snag." I didn't read the whole article so maybe it's in there somewhere.

[HUSSEY]

Originally Posted by roger55

breaks the laws of thermodynamics. It's a closed system.
As the other guys pointed out, there can be a need to slow down the flow but it doesn't have to do with heat transfer from the block to the water or from the water to the radiator.

Here's a company that got it right:

https://www.flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/cooling_faq.html

+1

Also, higher velocities of the coolant in the engine and radiator would aid in cooling by increasing the convective heat transfer. Of course there is a practical limitation as to how fast you would flow the coolant since higher velocities result in larger flow resistance and more power to drive the water pump.

[chevyguyase]

I think we shouldn't be beating up on Hot Rod because of this one sentence. "It has long been perceived that removing the thermostat will solve overheating problems". I think they are saying, If your vehicle is overheating and your thermostat is good, taking it out will not fix it, you have other issues. As a professional mechanic for 42 years, there is no way I could get away with calling that a professional repair. Plus my boss would probably fire me. If I ever did it I'd better have a bulletin to back me up, or I would have to bear the wrath of Judge Judy. HaHa

[roger55]

Originally Posted by chevyguyase

I think we shouldn't be beating up on Hot Rod because of this one sentence. "It has long been perceived that removing the thermostat will solve overheating problems". I think they are saying, If your vehicle is overheating and your thermostat is good, taking it out will not fix it, you have other issues. As a professional mechanic for 42 years, there is no way I could get away with calling that a professional repair. Plus my boss would probably fire me. If I ever did it I'd better have a bulletin to back me up, or I would have to bear the wrath of Judge Judy. HaHa

Maybe but when I see something so blatantly wrong in an article, it makes me suspect to the quality of the rest of it. Just me maybe but many times when I see something like this I just don't bother to finish what I'm reading.

One thing for sure is removing a thermostat on an engine that is overheating because it's sticking closed will cure it. A good thing to do when stuck out on the highway somewhere and put a new one back in later when it's practical to do.

My apologies to the OP. The subject matter is great to discuss. There's lots of considerations to think about before taking on a restoration project. Especially if it's a person's first.

[OrrieG]

[QUOTE=joedoh;7

I remember coming home to a pile of wood trim in the driveway and my wife dusting her gloves saying "now you just need to put in the new trim" like her part, the demolition, was the hard part.[/QUOTE]

Or carpet in my case, because wood floor was discovered underneath. One day for her, month of evenings and weekends for me patching in where old walls were removed, replacing water damage and asbestos abatement of mastic at old kitchen.

[Jemezcrusher]

Took me 3 and a half years to do the ground up on my 55 2dr sedan. Came out very nice. Too nice to use as a knock around driver, so on to the next project.

Bought a 1950 short bed AD last fall. Rebuilt 235, rewired new glass, etc and the plan was to update it and spend a year driving it around then jump in to it next winter. Paid 7K for the truck which was high, but felt since it needed body and paint (doing that myself) and basically suspension upgrade I was good to go My down time plan for the restoration/modification was 18 months from the start.

Anyway, three weeks ago we were out for a sunday drive and a guy sideswiped the 50. Grundy sent me a check for 7K (insured for 10). I still have all the good stuff that was on it and now have money for a Mar-K bed and four new fenders, with another 4K left over for suspension upgrades, body and paint (minimal with new sheet metal) etc. May end up throwing another 3-4 grand (the "might as well" factor) at it. Should be all in at 10-12 and have a dang nice truck. Not sure about the 18 months but have a plan, and lists, and know what it takes to get it done. One step at a time, and stay at it. Try to do something every day, even if it is minimal

[roger55]

Insurance!
A big one.
You want "agreed value". That's not the same as "stated value". Those have different definitions in the insurance dictionary.

You want to insure it when it's still a project too. Only companies like Grundy and Haggarty will do that.

[OrrieG]

Originally Posted by roger55

Insurance!
A big one.
You want "agreed value". That's not the same as "stated value". Those have different definitions in the insurance dictionary.

You want to insure it when it's still a project too. Only companies like Grundy and Haggarty will do that.

Allstate has mine insured for fire, damage and theft as long as it is a rolling truck that runs. Does not need to be registered, but does need a title. When I took it off the road I suspended liability but kept rest. Been a customer for over 40 years so maybe that helps?

[roger55]

Originally Posted by OrrieG

Allstate has mine insured for fire, damage and theft as long as it is a rolling truck that runs. Does not need to be registered, but does need a title. When I took it off the road I suspended liability but kept rest. Been a customer for over 40 years so maybe that helps?

I don't know if Allstate does agreed value or not. State Farm does but they write it through a 3rd party carrier that does classic car insurance.

If your classic is on the same policy as your regular cars, I would wager it's not agreed value. If it's not, I would change to a policy that is.
And remember that there's a big difference in stated value than agreed value. Agreed value guarantees you get your entire value in a total loss and stated value does not.

[Jemezcrusher]

Gotta go with Roger on this (and most of the other stuff he says). When I bought the 50, I sent pics to my Grundy agent. Asked for agreed value at 10K and they agreed. That along with the 30K coverage on my 55 costs about 300 a year.

Don't know how the conventional carriers would handle this but I had a check from my guys in 10 days, no hassle, no deductible.

When I built the 55 I started at 10k coverage and increased it every six months or so.

This is the first claim I have ever made in 45 years so I have nothing to compare it to, but my experience with specialty insurance outfit like Grundy is excellent so far

[ptc]

Originally Posted by Russell Ashley

I think they overlooked the mistake that probably kills more restorations than anything else, and that is stripping it all apart down to the frame. This often happens shortly after buying it when the enthusiasm is running high and there are visions of that beautiful car/truck you saw at the car show running through your head.

X100.... this has to be #1 for most "wanna-be" auto restorers, hobbyists, retirees, etc that think that car building is easy peasy....

This 1 thing will suck the life out of any project once the "remains" come back from the sand blaster.... lol

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by Russell Ashley

I think they overlooked the mistake that probably kills more restorations than anything else, and that is stripping it all apart down to the frame. This often happens shortly after buying it when the enthusiasm is running high and there are visions of that beautiful car/truck you saw at the car show running through your head.

Or even just stripping the paint from the whole body! There are few things more daunting than looking at a totally bare metal car.

I preach to strip one panel at a time and get it into epoxy primer then move onto the next.

Also, one of those mistakes could be having a body sandblasted! Nothing can DESTROY a body faster than that!

Brian