Has Anybody Used hotrodplans.com ??

[Mains52]

I just bought a 17$ booklet of build plans and specs for a mustang II front end and was wondering if anyone here had used this place before?
A little background: I just purchased 1952 Chevy 3100. I am having a hard time deciding whether to use the stock frame or use the s10 frame. I have followed the s10 build thread on here and printed off all of his plans. I would really like to know what people think . TO SWAP OR NOT TO SWAP?

Thanks

[63 & 64 Bowties]

You'll probably not get your answer, just because the opinions on S-10's are very split here.
But, let me put my 2c in to start the ball rolling.
I did ONE and I will never do another. Just my opinion, if you're frame is good, don't swap it. The S-10 swap (again, just my opinion) is way too much work for the benefits. Unless you buy a kit, it's tons of fab work. And, I actually enjoy fab work. I enjoy ice cream too, but I don't eat 5 gallons at one sitting.

[Mains52]

Originally Posted by 63 & 64 Bowties

You'll probably not get your answer, just because the opinions on S-10's are very split here.
But, let me put my 2c in to start the ball rolling.
I did ONE and I will never do another. Just my opinion, if you're frame is good, don't swap it. The S-10 swap (again, just my opinion) is way too much work for the benefits. Unless you buy a kit, it's tons of fab work. And, I actually enjoy fab work. I enjoy ice cream too, but I don't eat 5 gallons at one sitting.

Thank You,
May I ask what is under the truck in your pic? I think my frame is a 3600 frame also. It has 8 lug axles. Aren't they longer? I don't know if I trust my self to take any sections out of my frame.

[joedoh]

I am so impressed with how the s10 swap works out I have done two and have at least 4 more in the works. working 2-3hrs a day for 2 days a week, it has only taken 6 months to get where I am on the 49, working only a little more than that got the 47 done in 6 months. The next one will be even faster, because I learned so much on the first two, the "figuring out" is minimal.

the plan is where most guys have difficulty because body mounts are easy, its everything else, the drivetrain engine trans pedals wiring steering etc that causes problems. my plan is made around a running and driving donor truck. move the engine back, mount the body, adapt the pedals and steering, drive the truck. Then I make changes, if needed, usually not many. upgraded wiring that plugs in, high pressure fuel system, cruise control, HVAC. I like the s10 method a lot, my way of doing it anyway.

however, if you try to do it by finding a donor frame that is picked clean, add a motor and trans that was never running in the chassis, installing a brand new wiring harness, figuring out pedals... its not very easy. That is a lot of disconnected systems to try and make work together, thats a lot of work.


I have to admit when I see project threads that start out NEW PROJECT (insert catchy name) S10 FRAME LS SWAP BAGS I just KNOW that 1 in 10 will be done in the time frame they give, 2 will be done at all. its explained by the difference between motivation and ability. Anyone can say "I can do that" but some cant. That and biting off more than you can chew with a ton of changes that all take a lot of work and giving yourself a deadline even a shop couldnt meet.

This error in thinking can be done with an s10 swap, or with a Mustang II swap, because aside from mounting the body, the running boards, and bed, mounting the rest of the work, pedals, steering, engine, trans, wiring, rear end, its directly comparable. to use an old business idiom, you can eat an elephant, one bite at a time, but the longer it takes you the more it stinks. plan first!

measure your skill set. can you figure things out on the fly? or maybe do you need detailed plans to build anything? Measure the tools you have on hand. Do you have the tools you need to weld a body mount? Or maybe do you have a 1/2" drill and a craftsman toolbox? Measure your space, can you blow apart two trucks without the neighbors calling the cops or your wife blowing her top? or do you have a sloped/cracked driveway with outdoor amenities? Measure your timescale, do you want to drive this year? or maybe want your 10 year old to use it as his first car in 6 years? Measure your budget, take your first cost estimate and triple it, can your budget support it?

When I was selling the 47 I got calls from guys who offered 5k because "an s10 frame is 1k and the donor ad is 3k and that leaves 1k to pay you for your labor". I am not going to make it sound like a running truck is possible for that kind of money, let alone a bagged ls swapped truck. but with a good plan, everyone is happy.


cliff notes: if you are upgrading rear end, engine, trans, brakes, wiring, the difference between an s10 swap and a MII swap is mounting the body the running boards and the bed, which are the easiest part of an s10 swap.

[ptc]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THAT IS THE BEST INFORMATION WRITE UP I HAVE EVER SEEN^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Thanks Joedoh!!!!!

and the admin said it wasnt possible..... hmmmmm

[OrrieG]

I am a proponent of keeping the stock frame and adding IFS front and newer rear axle OR 4 link out back. If you don't like the results you still have the original frame to work with and tweak. S-10 is all or nothing. AD's are notorious for hood/fender/cab alignment difficulty, which is minimized keeping the stock frame and radiator mounting points.

[Mains52]

That's alot of good info thank all of you guys for helping instead of calling me a newb and kicking me aside. Little mechanical background: I was ASE certified out of highschool started doing bodywork in 7th grade and my dad is a bodyman turned sheet metal worker so hes the best of both worlds. We know our way around vehicles. My last hot rod (1969 Firebird) was on a readers ride cover of popular hotrodding. After I sold it of course ha, but all he did was get noticed for the work my dad and I had done on my first car. But now its time to do a truck so I can enjoy it with my wife and son.
Thanks again

[FiftyTwo]

My '52 is on a S10 frame. I love it, rides great and looks good but I also wouldn't do it again. If your stock frame is junk and you can't find another, then yes, go the S10 route. If you compare the cost of a basic MII kit vs all new S10 front end parts it's almost a wash. Don't forget you may need to strip an entire S10 down the bare frame, and then get rid of what you don't need, before you can even begin the swap process.

A bolt-on leaf spring kit and a used Camaro rear end will set you back another $500. Then you can drop the cab back onto the stock frame, bolt up the sheet metal and finish it up. Good luck.

[63 & 64 Bowties]

Originally Posted by Mains52

Thank You,
May I ask what is under the truck in your pic? I think my frame is a 3600 frame also. It has 8 lug axles. Aren't they longer? I don't know if I trust my self to take any sections out of my frame.

It was an 87 longbed standard cab S-10. And a 53 3100 6 lug
And, one thing I did forget to mention. I didn't want to keep the 2.8 v6 that was in the S-10 so my plan all along was to swap in a SBC which I did. I would imagine if you'd be happy with the v6 it may be a bit easier. I basically just used the s-10 frame and front suspension. I had found a cheap s-10 4x4 rear end which I used.
Either way. Good luck and tell us what you decide.

[mongocanfly]

I think everbody covered it pretty well..just keep in mind that all these different solutions/combinations were never meant to go together by any manufacture..that in turn now makes you the manufacturer..that's part of the process though is figuring out what works and what don't,,some enjoyment, , some heartache, , some trial and some error,,for the bonus round though a lot of that's been covered here on this site..I'm also faced with a mandatory frame swap..my old one was rusted in to between cab and bed..I can't find one in decent shape without a truck attached to it so I'm going to be building my frame..there again its all what your skill level is and how comfortable you are taking on that big of a project..by the way I'm going with a vette front end on mine... oh and 63-64 sweet looking truck..perfect stance..you got a build thread on it?

[Mains52]

Does anybody have a link to a BAGGED STOCK FRAME BUILD?
Thanks

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by FiftyTwo

If you compare the cost of a basic MII kit vs all new S10 front end parts it's almost a wash.

it costs about $280 for new control arms (with bushings and balljoints) and new steering (inners outers center and idler), brake rotors and pads add $100, shocks another $60. you are saying there is a hub to hub MII kit with rack and brakes for $440? I'll be honest, thats less than half of even the cheapest complete crossmember kit I have ever seen. That can really change the economies of doing the work, do you have a link to this setup?

Originally Posted by FiftyTwo

A bolt-on leaf spring kit and a used Camaro rear end will set you back another $500. Then you can drop the cab back onto the stock frame, bolt up the sheet metal and finish it up.

I think this is where guys have the problems, the three words "finish it up" that dont imply "install a motor and transmission, gas and brake pedals, brake booster and master cylinder, brake lines, fuel lines, exhaust, new wiring harness and gauges, steering column, shifter linkage, etc". This is the #1 complaint with s10 swaps and its unfair in my opinion, all the little stuff to figure out that is exactly the same no matter what frame you use. what parts of the the original frame make any of the listed work easier?

on using the stock motor: I use 4.3 auto donors and there is still too much power for the light pickup. in an s10 the weight is in the crash protection and insulation (which is removed) and the AD all the weight is in the frame and engine (which is removed).

[HUSSEY]

+1 on joedoh's comments. I've seen multiple trucks on CL that have been started and never finished, even using the conversion kits, there's a lot more than just getting the sheet metal mounted up.

As to "swap or not", I would ask, 1) How many hours a week do you realistically have to work on it? 2) When do you want to drive it?

It may sound high, but anywhere from 350-500 hours to swap a truck and finish it out (no paint or body work) and do it right, I don't think is unrealistic. I don't know the condition of your truck, running or not, but I'm confident I could put in a dropped front axle and a maybe a driveline swap and have it on the road pretty quick.

By the end of this summer I'll be approaching two years working on my truck but I can only find 10-20 hours per month to work on it. I enjoy working on it though so not having it on the road yet doesn't really discourage me.

[Mains52]

I am giving myself 2 years to get it running and driving. there is very little body work to be done as it is a California truck without rust. The guy I got it from sat the frame outside with no intention on using it so it has rust but not damageable just surface rust. The truck will be for my wife and I both but since I am playing the " its your truck honey" card, I believe I will get to work on it more than I get to mess with my own stuff. She wants the patina look so the body will be straight but the paint will look old. Happy wife right? I am going to do the s 10 swap I have one lined up for 200 with a 4x4 s10 rearend that's worth it all day to me better than a $3500 mustang II front end kit and an equal amount in a 4 link. if all else fails Ill buy the bolt on swap kit and make it easy on myself. I bought the truck for 1k. You don't get rust free vehicles for 1k to often.

Thanks to all of you so far.

[mongocanfly]

Looks like you got a good deal on your parts..sounds like you got a plan to..full steam ahead..

[joedoh]

rust is a big deal. I wish I had all that rust repair on the 49 back, cab corner, floor halves, windshield. gives me the jibblies just thinking about it again jibblyjibblyjibbly

[FiftyTwo]

Time and Money

They made S-10 trucks for 34 years (1982-2004), so finding a regular cab, long bed frame just about anywhere for little or nothing is pretty easy. Heck, mine was even free. Everyone knows you can drop a 47-53 truck onto an S-10 frame, change out the rear end, finish it up and have a running and driving truck pretty cheap. I understand that. And if you compare the cost of this swap vs installing a MII kit on your original frame, then yes it will certainly cost less. I get that too. But that’s really not a fair comparison is it? A 30+ year old frame with over 100K miles, sagging front springs, loose suspension, sloppy steering, worn out shocks and bad brakes compared to a MII front end made up of all brand new parts? So let’s do a real cost comparison between the two.
A typical MII kit can be bought for about $1500 which includes all new parts and a rebuilt rack. To do a fair “apples-to-apples” comparison, you need to price out every part of the S-10 front suspension, steering, and brakes to that of the MII kit. That way all the parts are new for both the S-10 and MII. Also, the cost shown below are only for the parts, no tax or shipping which could add easily another $100.00 and you still need to remove the old parts and install the new parts.

2001 S10 Good Quality Parts Sourced From Rock Auto 6/8/16 except as noted*
LH upper A-arm w/ ball joint Doorman 520137 $ 58.59
RH lower A-arm w/ ball joint Doorman 520136 $ 53.79
RH upper A-arm w/ ball joint Doorman 520138 $ 59.79
LH lower A-arm w/ ball joint Doorman 520135 $ 53.79
Coil springs, pr. Moog 80994 $ 74.79
LH/RH Dropped spindles Bell Tech BEL2100 $196.10 (Summit)*
Inner bearing set National A6 $ 5.42 x 2
Rotors, pr. AC Delco 18A878A $ 38.79 x 2
Outer bearing set National A34 $ 5.85 x 2
Seals inner National 4739 $ 1.46 x 2
LH Caliper w/ pads AC Delco 18R626 $ 42.79
RH Caliper w/ pads AC Delco 18R625 $ 42.79
LH Brake dust shield AC Delco 15725355 $ 35.79
RH Brake dust shield AC Delco 15725356 $ 35.79
Center link Moog DS1047 $ 51.79
LH / RH Inner tie rod ends Moog ES3380T $ 34.79 x 2
LH / RH Outer tie rod ends Moog ES3379T $ 33.79 x 2
Adjustment sleeve Moog ES2004S $ 8.29 x 2
Steering gear box rebuilt A-1 Cardone 277560 $ 96.79 w/core
Idler arm Moog K6187T $ 27.79
Pitman arm Not available n/a
Stabilizer end links AC Delco 46G0003A $ 3.90
Stabilizer bar bushings, pr. Moog K6169 $ 7.18
Shocks, gas charged AC Delco 520238 $14.72 x 2
TOTAL $1103.21

The whole purpose of this isn’t to try to discourage anybody from doing an S-10 frame swap (I have one), but instead inform them of alternative choices so they can make the right decision for them.

Good luck and have fun.

[joedoh]

wow I have done 3 s10 swaps, 2 AD, and I have never

paid 30 dollars each for MOOG tie rods
replaced dust sheilds, tie rod sleeves, springs, or a steering box.
paid $200 for drop spindles. although on the GMC I did buy blazer brakes and bel tech spindles, which ended up not being necessary and I did have to buy a secondhand set of used springs to replace the 2" drop spings and get the bumper off the ground.

I bet that front end is shiny and pretty though! definitely worth it to buy every part brand new for a apple to apple comparison.

[HUSSEY]

I'm not far off from FiftyTwo's material list above. I would say a "new" S10 set-up is less than a MII. However, throw in dropped spindles and a big brake upgrade it gets closer to a MII set up. Personally, I would rather roll on an S10 front end than a MII front end. Remember, the MII was a pretty dinky car. I could have saved money by utilizing more stuff from a salvage yard but I wasn't satisfied with stuff that I was able to locate used. I did end up buying junk calipers to use as the cores. Here's what I have spent on my brakes and suspension, front and rear:

[lsjrl07]

Originally Posted by HUSSEY

Here's what I have spent on my brakes and suspension, front and rear:

Hussey, Would you mind emailing your budget form? I have a similar one going for my Sgt Slam build. I just want to compare, and check what I currently have vs. what I need to get still. Thanks in advance! Email: JRLMetalProducts@Gmail.com

[joedoh]

nice work hussey! I keep a spreadsheet too, but I dont break it out by component groups. I do activity based costing which helps me determine time, cost and work order in a project file I link to it, it also lets me "work around" things that cost a lot but have a low labor cost and do things that have a high labor cost and low part cost when the budget is stretched.

blazer drop spindles cost stupid money, I am sticking to stock s10 brakes and mcgaughys spindles from now on, you can usually catch them on sale for $150 free shipping. same foundry as bel tech!

MII was a good setup years ago, but now with adjustable suspension the short spindles and unequal length control arms lead to a lot of camber change from drop to lift. you also have to be aware of your final ride height when you install it so you can prevent camber change from being a problem when the suspension cycles. I like the crossmember coach uses with s10 parts, or the dakota one I have seen, more modern than the MII and good spindle height.

[Mains52]

Well my frame purchase fell through my salvage guy called me and told me the gas tank area was to rusty and he wouldn't sell me a rusted frame. I am very thankful for this. Since I have a 3/4ton I need an ext cab s10 frame anyways due to it being closer to the 125 1/4 wheelbase of the 3600. That being said I read through almost all of COACH529's 3600 daily driver aka HENRY build and am very impressed with how he used the stock frame. Since I have only had the truck for 3 days I am still in the planning stages. Thanks to all of you guys for the advice and info .

[mr48chev]

I'm one of the "if you have a good stock frame keep it" brigade. To me it just makes for a better truck in the long run that holds it's value much better than a frame swap truck no matter what the frame is outside of a custom frame from Morrison or another custom frame shop.

There are viable reasons for doing an S-10 swap though.
1. You don't have a stock frame of any sort.
2. Your stock frame is junk due to one reason or another.
3. You bought a big truck (1-1/2 ton or larger) to get the great cab and need a frame to build a pickup.

In the mid to late 70s and the 80's I saw a lot of AD trucks and bought a few that someone had severely butchered the frame on trying to do an engine swap or subframe swap. One of my cabs came off one of those that I got cheap. Any one would have been a frame swap candidate because they had no usable frame.

[Hampshire]

If you are doing a running gear change, have a good frame & can't find a good S10 frame to work with a 3600 - why not cut your 3600 frame down to a 1/2 ton? To do the cut & box it takes about a morning. You will need new bedsides, but you sell can sell your 3600's bed parts on CL. I did and it paid for half of the cost of new sides, cross pieces, wood, strips & hardware. It was the least costly part of my project (and the easiest to assemble).

....I've done this and so have a couple others who have build threads on this forum. The 3600 frame is also more robust than the 3100 (.050 thicker metal) - with proper bracing and boxing to accommodate what kind of power you are putting to the ground, it's a good route to go.

[slimneverdies]

I keep hearing people say that the mustang II is puny but when I compared the stock S10 suspension next to my all new and tubular mustang II suspension, it was the clear winner. It has to be stout enough with the few guys I know with big blocks and one of those guys I know drives his as his daily driver. I originally looked into the S10 swap but couldn't find the chassis for anything less than $300.

Either one you chose there's some work involved. I like the mustang II because all you have to do is weld/bolt in the front cross member and bolt up your rear axle. Hard to get that wrong..