Another oil question (I know I know)

[Mrturner1]

So I searched it and read lots of threads to get my answer and while there is plenty of good info on oils, I couldn't find my answer. Hopefully somebody can help.

I have a decent sized flat tappet cam, and it's definetly broke in at this point, probably had 100 miles on it by now maybe a little less. I used 5 quarts of break in oil (not additive) for the initial break in and again after I let it run for 30 minutes. I changed it again around 40 miles or so to check for metal flakes or glitter and was all clear. So my question is, can I run Comp Cams break in oil (not additive) all the time now? I run 30w in the summer because it's over 100* where I live, and I have 12 quarts of it sittin around so price isn't an issue. Is that okay to do or is it just a break in thing?

[engineer_gregh]

I run comp cams break in oil in my 402 all the time. I'm up to 7K+ miles on the engine. I called comp cams and talked with them before I did it and even they said it was ok to do so.

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by engineer_gregh

I run comp cams break in oil in my 402 all the time. I'm up to 7K+ miles on the engine. I called comp cams and talked with them before I did it and even they said it was ok to do so.

That's funny because it was your thread I searched lol you kept mentioning that you wanted to run comps break in oil by itself and for some reason everybody kept saying what they use instead of answering if it was ok or not 👍

[engineer_gregh]

The tech support folks at Comp said that it just has more zinc. If its good enough for break in, its good enough to run all the time IMHO.

[toolboxchev]

This stuff: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=valvoline+...ax=1&ia=images

56k going strong.

[burnin oil]

Running it straight would be a waste of money in my opinion. There is plenty of zinc in a bottle to cushion everything. I have said it before but Cummins still come with flat tappet cams and run low revs with 15w40. It has more heavy metals than the normal off the shelf motor oils but has been seriously reduced in the past decade. If those guys are running around for 200k+ miles without major cam issues I think you will be fine. Breaking in a cam has always been the issue and life afterwards has been pretty easy after that. In other words it has to make it past the first couple hundred miles and it should live a long life after that. I still run solid cams in my motors and knock on wood, the only cams I have lost were hydraulics. Some really smart people will chime in here and say that the diesel cams don't have the loads imparted on them like a high reving gasser and they are correct. Then they will say that you should have went roller to free up a couple HP and reap all the benefits including quicker lift rates. I just replaced my 400sb in the daily and put a used solid circle track cam back in the motor. It had a really good wear pattern after about 10k miles and I really liked the power band so I reused it. The only reason it came out of the old motor was that the compression wasn't high enough for the cam and I tried a handful of others over the motors life. Compression issue is now fixed and she should be a lot happier. Other than break in that cam only saw 15w40 as did all the other solid cams in that motor.

[Alex V.]

I'm not going to say break-in oils will hurt an engine long term, or at least not one that's just used casually. However, I do not think they're necessary and probably not nearly as economical as oils formulated for normal duty. The last cam break-in I did was on my Suburban's 350. Albeit it was a standard, calm truck grind, but I used Valvoline conventional oil with a bottle of Lucas high zinc break-in additive. After 1,000 miles I changed it out, back to Valvoline MaxLife 10w30 (no additive) and it's gone several thousand since with no trouble. About 8 years ago when I caught wind of the ZDDP talk I was chatting with the local preferred engine rebuilder, who has generous experience with all types of engines including race applications, and he said a half bottle of the common ZDDP additives is plenty. Since then I've only used a whole bottle when breaking in an engine or component, otherwise I use 1/2 bottle or none at all with no repercussions. However, oil is one of those things that you won't have peace about unless you use what you think will do the job.

FWIW, after quite a bit of back and forth in my '85 C3500 (stock 454) with Valvoline VR1 racing oil (20w50), conventional 10w30 with and without STP oil stabilizer (supposedly has extra ZDDP), and a long stint with Schaeffer's synthetic blend 15w40, I settled on Schaeffer's syn blend 10w30. I run Valvoline Maxlife 10w30 in my Suburban's 350 (it saw dad's '97 Suburban past 400,000 so I have no doubts) and full syn 5w30 in my '13 Cruze - Valvoline up to 50,000 mi. then switched to Schaeffer's and am currently at 70,500. Synthetics are where it's at nowadays.

[Gromit]

I thought this old article about oils in an industrial machinery trade magazine was interesting..

Mostly because of the emphasis on the changes in the testing process that the oil formulators have to use to achieve the right to stamp their products with the required latest specification numbers.

I can't vouch for any of it since I am no organic chemist but I just take in as much as I can and make my own decision..

Here is the article: (I should note this is from 2003)

********************
Motor Oils - Fuel Economy vs. Wear

Blaine Ballentine, Central Petroleum Company
Tags: automotive, motor oils, synthetic lubricants, viscosity

Conventional wisdom states that engine oils that increase fuel economy allow less friction and prolong engine life. The purpose of this article is to challenge conventional wisdom, particularly concerning modern (GF-3 ILSAC/API Starburst) engine oils.

Fuel Economy: Does Anyone Really Care?
First, we should face the fact that the American consumer does not typically care about fuel economy except during difficult economic times. The No. 1 selling passenger vehicle is the Ford F-Series Pickup. Five of the top 10 best-selling vehicles are trucks, and trucks outsell cars. Some of the trucks are called sport-utility vehicles, otherwise known as SUVs, because their owners don’t want to admit they are trucks. The mass (size, weight) of these vehicles is not conducive to great fuel economy.

Additionally, consider how most vehicles are driven. Anyone accelerating slowly or driving at the speed limit to conserve energy is a danger to himself and other drivers who are in a much bigger hurry.

Auto manufacturers, on the other hand, are concerned about fuel economy. The manufacturer faces big fines if the fleet of cars it produces falls short of the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) requirements imposed upon them by the federal government.


Figure 1. Bearing Wear

The March to Thinner Oils
Thinner oils are being used these days for three reasons: They save fuel in test engines, the viscosity rules have changed, and manufacturers are recommending thinner grades.

The Sequence VI-B is the test used to evaluate fuel economy for the GF-3 specification. The VI-B test engine is fitted with a roller cam where the old Sequence VI test used a slider cam. The old Sequence VI test responded well to friction modifiers, but the Sequence VI-B responds to thinner oils.

The test oil’s fuel efficiency is compared to the fuel efficiency of a reference oil in the Sequence VI-B test. To pass, the test oil must improve fuel economy one to two percent, depending on viscosity grade. SAE 5W-20 must produce higher relative fuel efficiency than SAE 5W-30.

It is interesting to note that the reference oil is fully PAO synthetic SAE 5W-30. To qualify for the GF-3 Starburst, ordinary mineral oils had to beat the fuel economy of the full synthetic reference oil. (It seems there is more to fuel economy than a magic base oil.)

Another factor in fuel economy is temporary polymer shear. These polymers are additives known as viscosity index improvers (or modifiers). Polymers are plastics dissolved in oil to provide multiviscosity characteristics. Just as some plastics are tougher, more brittle or more heat-resistant than others, different polymers have different characteristics.

Polymers are huge molecules with many branches. As they are heated, they uncoil and spread out. The branches entangle with those of other polymer molecules and trap and control many tiny oil molecules. Therefore, a relatively small amount of polymer can have a huge effect on oil viscosity.

As oil is forced between a bearing and journal, many polymers have a tendency to align with each other, somewhat like nesting spoons. When this happens, viscosity drops. Then when the oil progresses through the bearing, the polymer molecules entangle again and viscosity returns to normal. This phenomenon is referred to as temporary shear.

Because the Sequence VI-B test responds to reductions in viscosity, oil formulators rely on polymer shear to pass the test. A shear stable polymer makes passing the GF-3 fuel economy test much more challenging.

New rules defining the cold-flow requirements of SAE viscosity grades (SAE J300) became effective in June 2001. The auto manufacturers were afraid that modern injection systems might allow the engine to start at temperatures lower than the oil could flow into the oil pump. Consequently, the new rules had a thinning effect on oil.

The auto manufacturers now recommend thinner oils for their vehicles than in the past. Years ago, SAE 10W-40 was the most commonly recommended viscosity grade, later migrating to SAE 10W-30. SAE 5W-30 is most popular now, but Ford and Honda recommend SAE 5W-20. It is likely that more widespread adoption of SAE 5W-20 and other thin oils may occur to help comply with CAFE requirements.

Because of the change in cold-flow requirements and the fuel economy test pushing formulators toward the bottom of the viscosity grade, today’s SAE 10W-30 oils are more like yesterday’s (GF-1 spec) SAE 5W-30 oils. On top of that, there is a trend toward auto manufacturers recommending thinner grades. This seems ridiculous. SUVs and trucks, with their inherently less-efficient four-wheel drive and brick-wall aerodynamics, need powerful, gas-guzzling engines to move their mass around in a hurry. In response, auto manufacturers recommend using thin oils to save fuel. Incredible!

Viscosity and Wear
Thinner oils have less drag, and therefore less friction and wear. Right? Perhaps in the test engine or engines that experience normal operation. But somewhat thicker oils may offer more protection for more severe operations such as driving through mountains, pulling a boat, dusty conditions, short trips, high rpm, overloading, overheating and overcooling.

Any abrasive particles equal to or larger than the oil film thickness will cause wear. Filters are necessary to keep contaminants small. The other side of the equation is oil film thickness. Thicker oil films can accommodate larger contaminants.

Temperature has a big effect on viscosity and film thickness. As a point of reference, one SAE grade increase in viscosity is necessary to overcome the influence of a 20°F increase in engine temperature. At a given reference point, there is approximately a 20°F. difference between viscosity grades SAE 30, 40 and 50. SAE 20 is somewhat closer to 30 than the other jumps, because SAE 30 must be 30°F higher than SAE 20 to be roughly the equivalent viscosity.

In other words, an SAE 20 at 190°F is about the same kinematic viscosity as an SAE 30 at 220°F, which is about the same viscosity as an SAE 40 at 240°F. This approximation works well in the 190°F to 260°F temperature range. One might be surprised at the slight amount of difference between straight viscosity vs. multiviscosity oils with the same back number (for example, SAE 30, SAE 5W-30, and SAE 10W-30).

If an SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as an SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture.

Ford is bumping up against its CAFE requirements and recommends SAE 5W-20 oil for most of its engines in the United States. It claims SAE 5W-20 is optimal for fuel efficiency and wear.

To determine if SAE 5W-20 oils provide the same level of protection as SAE 5W-30 oils, Dagenham Motors in England, one of the largest Ford dealers in Europe, was consulted. SAE 5W-30 is required for warranty purposes in England, and SAE 5W-20 is not even available. If SAE 5W-20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in Europe?

Antiwear Property Changes
Another change that occurred in passenger car motor oils with GF-2 and GF-3 is a more stringent limit on phosphorus, which is part of the zinc phosphate (ZDDP) antiwear additive. The auto manufacturers are concerned that phosphorus will deposit on surfaces of the catalytic converter and shorten its life.

This is a complicated issue, and the deposits depend on the specific ZDDP chemistry and the finished oil formulation. The industry was unsuccessful in designing an engine test for an oil’s catalytic converter deposit forming tendencies. Therefore, the auto manufacturers set an arbitrary limit for motor oil of 0.1 percent phosphorus.

Antiwear additives are important in the absence of a hydrodynamic film, such as in the valve train. The antiwear additives are activated by frictional heat, which causes them to react with the hot surface and form a chemical barrier to wear.

The mechanism by which phosphorus deposits form on catalytic converter surfaces is not fully understood. It does not correlate directly with oil volatility or oil consumption. On the other hand, if engine wear causes oil consumption to increase, the risk of forming phosphorus deposits in the converter would increase dramatically. It seems that preventing wear and oil consumption should be a priority.

In the past, oil formulators could make a premium product by simply adding more ZDDP. A similar move today would result in an oil formulation that would not support new car warranties.

Short-term Thinking
As wear increases, the efficiency of an engine declines. Valve train wear slightly changes valve timing and movement. Ring and liner wear affect compression. The wear hurts fuel efficiency and power output by an imperceptible amount at first, but then the difference in fuel economy between an SAE 10W-30 and SAE 5W-20 is hardly noticeable. Efficiency continues to decline as wear progresses. Perhaps optimizing wear protection is the way to reduce fuel consumption over the life of the engine.

Certainly engines that have experienced significant ring and liner wear benefit from thicker oils. Thicker oil use results in compression increases, performance improvements and reduced oil consumption.

High-mileage oils are a relatively new category of passenger car motor oils. These products typically contain more detergent/ dispersant and antiwear additives than new car oils. They typically contain a seal swell agent and are available in thicker viscosity grades than most new cars recommend. “High mileage” seems to be defined by “as soon as your car is out of warranty.”


Figure 2. Ring Wear

What To Use
Although thinner oils with less antiwear additive outperform more robust products in the 96-hour fuel economy test, it is not clear that such products save fuel over the useful life of the engine.

Every fluid is a compromise. Oils recommended by the auto manufacturers seem to compromise protection from wear under severe conditions to gain fuel economy and catalyst durability. It is important to recognize that to use a product that offers more protection from wear will most likely compromise your warranty. Thicker oils also compromise cold temperature flow, which may be of concern depending upon climate and season.

The best protection against wear is probably a product that is a little thicker (such as SAE 10W-30 or 15W-40) and has more antiwear additives than the oils that support the warranty. The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owner’s manual or stamped on the dipstick.


Machinery Lubrication (7/2003)

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils

[hdff]

The guy that just put a cam in my motor recommended 4.5 quarts of valvoline vr1 and a pint on Lucas break in oil every time I change the oil. And he has a pretty good reputation

[davepl]

I haven't done it yet, but after the initial several hundred miles with real breakin oil I'm transitioning to traditional oil plus CamShield:

http://www.cam-shield.com/

No idea if it works, but it claims to... so I bought a pack of it. The breakin oil guys (I think it was Joe Gibbs' people, but don't quote me) said the additives aren't as good across as broad a range of pressures and temperatures as the "baked in" kind, but we shall see.

[cleszkie]

I add a pint of Lucas Break in oil with every oil change as well, and I have a full roller motor. Just makes good sense to always have a little zinc in the oil.

[70STOVEBOLT]

I used 4.5 qts of NAPA 30 weight non-detergent with a pint of STP oil treatment for two oil changes, then NAPA 10W30 after that with no issues. 402 with stock heads and compression with a mild flat tappet hydraulic cam.

[hdff]

Just curious if anyone is using synthetic?

[BlackedOut67shorty]

I've used wolfs head 15w40 semi synthetic oil on my truck with no issues.

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by Alex V.

I'm not going to say break-in oils will hurt an engine long term, or at least not one that's just used casually. However, I do not think they're necessary and probably not nearly as economical as oils formulated for normal duty. The last cam break-in I did was on my Suburban's 350. Albeit it was a standard, calm truck grind, but I used Valvoline conventional oil with a bottle of Lucas high zinc break-in additive. After 1,000 miles I changed it out, back to Valvoline MaxLife 10w30 (no additive) and it's gone several thousand since with no trouble. About 8 years ago when I caught wind of the ZDDP talk I was chatting with the local preferred engine rebuilder, who has generous experience with all types of engines including race applications, and he said a half bottle of the common ZDDP additives is plenty. Since then I've only used a whole bottle when breaking in an engine or component, otherwise I use 1/2 bottle or none at all with no repercussions. However, oil is one of those things that you won't have peace about unless you use what you think will do the job.

FWIW, after quite a bit of back and forth in my '85 C3500 (stock 454) with Valvoline VR1 racing oil (20w50), conventional 10w30 with and without STP oil stabilizer (supposedly has extra ZDDP), and a long stint with Schaeffer's synthetic blend 15w40, I settled on Schaeffer's syn blend 10w30. I run Valvoline Maxlife 10w30 in my Suburban's 350 (it saw dad's '97 Suburban past 400,000 so I have no doubts) and full syn 5w30 in my '13 Cruze - Valvoline up to 50,000 mi. then switched to Schaeffer's and am currently at 70,500. Synthetics are where it's at nowadays.

I think synthetics are great and if I ever build a completely brand new motor I may try it, but I think at this point if I made the switch I'd start seeing leaks everywhere.

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by davepl

I haven't done it yet, but after the initial several hundred miles with real breakin oil I'm transitioning to traditional oil plus CamShield:

http://www.cam-shield.com/

No idea if it works, but it claims to... so I bought a pack of it. The breakin oil guys (I think it was Joe Gibbs' people, but don't quote me) said the additives aren't as good across as broad a range of pressures and temperatures as the "baked in" kind, but we shall see.

Which type of traditional? I went crazy and forked out the money for a case of Valvoline VR-1 racing oil

[Alex V.]

Originally Posted by Mrturner1

I think synthetics are great and if I ever build a completely brand new motor I may try it, but I think at this point if I made the switch I'd start seeing leaks everywhere.

I don't fully subscribe to that idea - even if it was true once upon a time chemistry has improved. If you're concerned about that use a high mileage formulation like Valvoline Maxlife. I switched 2 engines over to it right before the 200,000 mi. mark and saw roughly 40% less oil loss. And that's also the oil the Vortec 350 I mentioned above has gone past 400K on, so any negative opinions about HM oil using seal swellers and such is lost on me.

[toolboxchev]

Originally Posted by Mrturner1

Which type of traditional? I went crazy and forked out the money for a case of Valvoline VR-1 racing oil

You are headed in the right direction, I also may be adding that cam shield product to my engine in the future if I do not go with a roller motor. In the event of an over heat situation even with a roller cam I like the idea of ZDDP in my engine as I do not have a Cat converter.

It activates with heat, ZDDP, that is, as read in the article. I can attest to the protection as my vehicle was dramatically overheating last summer for over a month until I found a guy who built me a dynamite radiator.

My engine is still sound today.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by Mrturner1

Which type of traditional? I went crazy and forked out the money for a case of Valvoline VR-1 racing oil

Actually I will run the CamShield with Rotella TurboDiesel Synthetic most likely. Has some ZDDP and Phosphorus (though not a lot) in a good synthetic base stock with detergents for diesel. That for my cars without cats that have flat tappets.

I may run CamShield with Mobil1 but for now have several jugs of Rotella T on hand too, so I use that in the older vehicles.

[toolboxchev]

I have seen some of those viscosity tests of Mobil 1 on youtube, its an impressive product. You may have a real winning combo there!

[Gromit]

The cam break in additive shouldn't hurt (but I don't really know).

But just to add to the wider discussion that your post inspired - I have read that ZDDP is not the only issue for modern oils - supposedly it is the phosphorus/ZDDP ratio that has been most changed by the newer testing and certification protocols.

I wonder if anyone knows whether the ZDDP additives also contain the commensurate amount of phosphorus? Because from what I have read the phosphorus is what they reduced due to potential damage to catalytic converters; and since ZDDP and phosphorus need to be in balance the formulators then found it necessary to reduce the ZDDP to maintain the optimum phosphorus/ZDDP balance. The desired optimum effect for me is to get back to the same kind of flat tappet cam wear that we would have seen with the flat tappet design before the catalytic converters began to affect oil formulations.

It is my impression that if you have a flat tappet and wilder cam profile the oil formulation become more critical compared to a milder cam and roller type design

[davepl]

I'm not sure, but ZDDP isn't just Zinc - I believe it contains BOTH zinc and phosphorus.

"Historically, ZDDP has been added to oils in amounts resulting in approximately 0.15% phosphorus, and 0.18% zinc"

So if it contains ZDDP, it contains both I think. The product "ZDDP Plus" says it is 6% zinc and 5% phosphorus by weight.

[GRX]

Personally, I use a bottle of STP and regular oil in my older vehicles.

Yep. More than just Zinc. ZDDP stands for Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate. Essentially Zinc bound to an anion (an ion with more electrons than protons, thus having a negative charge) of dithiophosphoric acid. From what I understand too much ZDDP can actually turn the oil slightly corrosive. Which is why more is not better.

Far as break in goes ... the first few minutes are the make or break point. The advantage of using a good Moly paste on the cam for initial start up can not be over-stated.

[Alex V.]

Originally Posted by GRX

Yep. More than just Zinc. ZDDP stands for Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate. Essentially Zinc bound to an anion (an ion with more electrons than protons, thus having a negative charge) of dithiophosphoric acid. From what I understand too much ZDDP can actually turn the oil slightly corrosive. Which is why more is not better.

Far as break in goes ... the first few minutes are the make or break point.

Word.

[davepl]

I'm running two bottles of camshield for 6 quarts of oil, which puts me a little over 2000ppm, which is just shy of what they recommend for new cam breakin.

Since I only have 200 miles, I figure my cam is broken in but still vulnerable, so went with more. Next time I'll only use half as much.

I had to start a log sheet in the garage, being spring I've done 5 oil changes in 2 months! Feels like a Jiffy Lube some days!