Fuel Injection

[jlipman]

I need some advise. I have a 72 C-10 with a stroked 350. The truck has been sitting for 10 years and I'm getting it going. The PO had a lot of parts that were never installed. One of which is a First fuel injection manifold unit. Looks like its the first generation unit. It most likely was purchased in 2006.

Here are my questions:
1) How hard is the install? I replaced carbs and manifolds but never a Fuel Injection Unit.
2) There is a v2 computer/ wiring set up. Should I upgrade?
3) What is the added value of the manifold system vs the carb type bolt on? If they were similar maybe I could sell the manifold assembly to by the carb type bolt on.

I am trying to carefully allocate $ because I need a transmission badly.

Thanks in advance!

[James the III]

Originally Posted by jlipman

I need some advise. I have a 72 C-10 with a stroked 350. The truck has been sitting for 10 years and I'm getting it going. The PO had a lot of parts that were never installed. One of which is a First fuel injection manifold unit. Looks like its the first generation unit. It most likely was purchased in 2006.

Here are my questions:
1) How hard is the install? I replaced carbs and manifolds but never a Fuel Injection Unit.
2) There is a v2 computer/ wiring set up. Should I upgrade?
3) What is the added value of the manifold system vs the carb type bolt on? If they were similar maybe I could sell the manifold assembly to by the carb type bolt on.

I am trying to carefully allocate $ because I need a transmission badly.

Thanks in advance!

I'm guessing you ment Fast EFI
Is it their TBI or is it the mpefi ?
TBI bolts to a carb intake
mpefi has 8 injectors and fuel rails ect..

mpefi is 1000x better, and why the oem's gave up on tbi 25 years ago.

[Bigdav160]

When I google "First Fuel Injection" I get picture of a TPI manifold like this:



I'd say swap it out! But I like fuel injection. I worked on too many carburetors in 1970's and 80's.

I ran a GM TPI in my '72 pickup for several years. It ran great and got decent fuel economy with a 700R4 transmission.

[jjzepplin]

Pics man! We need pics!

[jlipman]

Originally Posted by jjzepplin

Pics man! We need pics!

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[jlipman]

Originally Posted by jjzepplin

Pics man! We need pics!

Here is the truck and the fuel injection.
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[jlipman]

I'm planning on putting in a 700R4 as well. Maybe I better get it running well with the carb after the tranny first then tackle the fuel injection. I'll give FIRST fuel injection a call to see if I should upgrade the computer system.
I'm itching to drive this truck!
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[jjzepplin]

There is a thread on here about First Fuel Injection. Go to the search tab to find it. If I remember right it had good reviews. A sort of refined upgraded TPI unit.
Get an 87 or newer 700R4. Early ones are junky.

[jlipman]

Originally Posted by jjzepplin

There is a thread on here about First Fuel Injection. Go to the search tab to find it. If I remember right it had good reviews. A sort of refined upgraded TPI unit.
Get an 87 or newer 700R4. Early ones are junky.

I was looking at the 700r4's from Bow Tie Overdrives. Finding a used 87 or newer would save me some $. Would I have to get the used tranny built up?
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[GASoline71]

I wouldn't bolt up a junk yard tranny from the 80's or early 90's without having it rebuilt. The days of yarding out a 700R4 or a 200-4R and just bolting them up are pretty much gone if you ask me. Those are 30 year old transmissions for the most part.

Gary

[SuperBuickGuy]

Get the transmission, then decide on the EFI. Seriously, what good is EFI if you truck doesn't move? While you're doing the transmission, you should look into your options for EFI. I like TPI, but it's such old tech and its biggest issue (and one for the EZ-EFI) is it doesn't like low-vacuum. If you have any cam (and by this I mean less then a 114 centerline), you'll have issues that require substantial tuning to fix. Add to that issue, that tuning something like that means burning a new chip. Can you burn chips?

For retro-fit, I really like the Holley Sniper EFI - it has tuning features, it's not nanny like the EZ-EFI (EZ allows you to suggest air fuel ratios but will override you if it thinks it knows better then you - which can be, how do we say, frustrating?)

The rub on burning chips is this - I have a TBI system on a truck I built and rather then burn a chip, I'll replace it with the sniper system. In the end, it costs less - especially since I can sell my system to someone else to mitigate the cost.

As I'm a newbie here, these are the systems I've run and am familiar with:
1) stock GM OBDII systems (think LS)
2) Megasquirt 1,3 and 3x
3) EZ-efi (rubbish)
4) TBI - OBDI
5) Holley pro-jection
6) Accel EFI
7) Holley Terminator

There's even more, but that gives you an idea of stuff I've used... with all that said, I carefully consider what I'm building because in many, many cases a carb is better for the application then EFI.

[LongBox]

First, your truck looks fantastic, lucky to have such a sweet looker.

From what you've said, you're interested in getting more performance, plus, I'd guess, a substantial increase in fuel economy (that's the main reason to get a 700R4). I love my 69, but despite the fact that it has a 350 QJet, and 3.73 axle, it does not perform nearly as well as my 98 350 Vortec and 4l60E, which is in many ways, what you are trying to achieve with the mods you have in mind. The FI on the Vortec makes such a difference in starting, idling, fuel economy--it's tough to go back to a carburetor.

A good 700R4 will lower your cruising revs, and the stout first gear helps get off the line, but you already know all that. And, like the other guys have said, I'd work on that first.

As for the FI, why not go for the latest tech? There are new units out there that are easy to install, and are supposed to tune themselves. From the little that I've read, Holley make good units, worth a look.

Keep the thread alive as you progress.

[jlipman]

That is sound advise. I'll report back after the tranny is installed. I'm leaning towards selling the FIRST FI on Ebay.
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[Tquillen]

Originally Posted by SuperBuickGuy

Get the transmission, then decide on the EFI. Seriously, what good is EFI if you truck doesn't move? While you're doing the transmission, you should look into your options for EFI. I like TPI, but it's such old tech and its biggest issue (and one for the EZ-EFI) is it doesn't like low-vacuum. If you have any cam (and by this I mean less then a 114 centerline), you'll have issues that require substantial tuning to fix. Add to that issue, that tuning something like that means burning a new chip. Can you burn chips?

For retro-fit, I really like the Holley Sniper EFI - it has tuning features, it's not nanny like the EZ-EFI (EZ allows you to suggest air fuel ratios but will override you if it thinks it knows better then you - which can be, how do we say, frustrating?)

The rub on burning chips is this - I have a TBI system on a truck I built and rather then burn a chip, I'll replace it with the sniper system. In the end, it costs less - especially since I can sell my system to someone else to mitigate the cost.

As I'm a newbie here, these are the systems I've run and am familiar with:
1) stock GM OBDII systems (think LS)
2) Megasquirt 1,3 and 3x
3) EZ-efi (rubbish)
4) TBI - OBDI
5) Holley pro-jection
6) Accel EFI
7) Holley Terminator

There's even more, but that gives you an idea of stuff I've used... with all that said, I carefully consider what I'm building because in many, many cases a carb is better for the application then EFI.

I agree with this. I do EFI for a living on both race and street applications, and there are pros and cons to any system (and there are a TON of great systems out there). One thing to consider is how much help/support you will have when you decide to put the EFI on the truck. Companies like FAST and Holley (among others) have good help techs, but their real strength is the distributor network. Lots of distributors know more about how to make the systems work than the guys that designed the systems in the first place. I know this because I have those guys on speed dial! LOL. Seriously, it's a lot of time, effort, and money to do an EFI swap on your own, and having someone to help out with questions you may have is worth its weight in gold.

Travis

[Orange Crate]

Here is a pretty good read on EFI:

http://xtremecarzone.com.au/index.php?showtopic=386

[SuperBuickGuy]

To what I said before, I'll add this. To properly do EFI, you need to be able to properly set up a Holley carb. It's the basis of everything. Learn to read plugs, learn the major issues (like lean conditions) but also know when a motor isn't giving you all it should. Once you know how to do that with timing and a carb, then move to EFI. I made kind of a mistake when I started by jumping feet-first into a TBI swap in an S-10 Blazer (circa 1995). I could make a junker run, but I'd never made a car fast. I sold the car, in part, out of frustration for it not performing like it should... and I was right, and it still irritates me that I sold it before I figured it out (made worse by knowing what I know now).

I speak both EFI and carbs. I really like EFI, but don't mistake that there is a large amount of knowledge you should at least make an effort to learn. Otherwise, I'll by buying the car from you in 5 years and making it run.

You'll hate me, and I'll tell you the urban legend about Henry Ford finding a person stuck beside the road with a broken car. Henry offered to help the guy for $1.00. The guy, frustrated said "okay." Henry got out a hammer and hit the motor on the side. It ran perfectly again. The person paid the $1.00 but complained about the steep price. Henry said "the tool rental was 25 cents, the knowledge of where to hit cost you 75 cents." (I abbreviate, but the point is valid).... and with all of that said, I'm always learning.

Recently, I fixed the TBI on my FJ40 - someone had obviously had trouble with the TBI and removed it - I bought it at a swap meet for chump change. It came with 2 sets of spare everything. The problem? Holley (probably) didn't tighten the IAC valve so it had a vacuum leak - it lean backfired, ate an O2 sensor, and really made me think I was losing my mind.... I fixed it with an adjustable wrench. I paid less for the entire system then the new, spare parts cost... heck, I paid less then the O2 sensor plus the IAC valve for the entire, Howell system.... don't be that guy.

And the absolute 1st thing to do (to revisit what I said before) is make it run perfectly before you make the change... otherwise you'll never know if you're chasing an EFI problem, or a faulty TB cable problem.

[Tquillen]

SuperBuickGuy,

I think you've done this a while. LOL! Fantastic advice. Couldn't agree more. I find that 90% of the problems that My customers have with EFI, aren't EFI related at all. But the newest gizmo on the car always gets the blame!

Travis

[James the III]

The TPI.. will be good in the truck. it builds good low and mid range torque..
just understand they run out of breath at 5500rpm..
SLP and edel. make/made intake and runners with larger ports.. that upped the rpm range..
Those parts are still not cheap..

I looked into this.. as it be great on my 350 vortec crate . but the TPI vortec intake is 500+ and runners are 250-350+ then injectors etc..

[Z10]

Jlipman,

I've installed the F.I.R.S.T tip in my 72 The system works great and now has over 10k miles on it. It's sitting on top of a ZZ4 350 backed with a GM rebuilt 700R4 from a 91 Corvette, I really like it. You can see more in my build thread listed in my signature below. Milage around 16mpg at 75. I'll try and post some pics tomorrow.

[MARKDTN]

I love my TPI. In my '83 K20 I swapped the original 350 for a '91 350 Corvette engine (aluminum heads). My mileage went from about 14 to over 17. The torque improvement is noticeable. As long as you use a fuel-injection friendly camshaft it should be great. I don't know anything about that system, but I see it uses a GM MAP sensor and so I assume throttle position, knock, and coolant temp as well? If so, then parts are available anywhere.

[Z10]

Ok, let's see if I can post a few pics. Complete work up on my build thread.
Here's a link to the F.I.R.S.T web sight https://www.firstfuelinjection.com
This system flows much better than a factory TPI which supports around 300hp. The FIRST should support 600hp. When you have a set of factory runners sitting next to the FIRST the difference is obvious. It's also or was less expensive than FAST/Holley TBI systems.

I'm also using a FiTech TBI on another ZZ4 in my 69 Camaro, which is around $900 and is working great. I'm using this in my Camaro to retain the factory look. With the Air Cleaner installed it basically disappears. http://fitechefi.com