47-55.1 What's going wrong inside my 350?

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by dsraven

on the crank pulley deal, that vibration damper part is "pressed on" and needs to be "pulled off" but some guys will not put anything against the crank snout when they pull it off so the threaded end of the puller center bolt will extend deep into the snout's threaded hole and can rub against the inner threads of the crank and damage or strip out the snout of the crank. it may be that the threads were repairable before the bolt was attempted to be screwed back in. who knows. the other thing that can happen is the vibration damper is supposed to be "pulled on" the crankshaft snout. there is a puller stud/bolt that screws into the crank snout, the damper is slid on the snout of the crank and then a thick flat washer or thrust bearing is used against the front of the damper with a nut on the threaded stud/bolt is tightened to pull the damper onto the crank. without the proper tool some will hammer the damper onto the crank. this can damage the thrust bearing, the damper or the crank's snout, the threads on the damper's pulley retainer holes or can bend the damper a little so it doesn't run true. when you take it apart ensure to use the right tools and then use a dial indicator on the crank snout so you know if it is bent before the crank is removed or if sending the crank to a shop for checking make sure to tell them about the possible issue. if the helicoil was not installed straight it should have no effect on the damper running true, it would just mean that the bolt would not be flat against the flat washer holding the damper on. I suggest to use the bolt rather than run without it.

damper removal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QORm5fnCvYA

installation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7BuijqjcUk

DSRaven,

Thank you for the tips. I helicoil the crank because I had to way to turn it over to set TDC on #1 to drop in the distributor. I didnt think it would be an issue but I will put the bolt back in after i figure out what is going on. Thank you for the links. I've been going youtube crazy watching videos on balancer removal and installation videos. I've actually watched one of the ones you posted. i hope to have some answers soon once I have some time to tear into the motor. Of course I'll keep you updated.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by weim55

Good for you to pay the $$ and get an experienced set of eyes and ears on the problem. I've spent most of my working years as a mobile construction mechanic. It's always baffled me people will spend $$ like crazy throwing parts at a problem but refuse spend $$ toward experienced labor to diagnose a problem first.

You mention you thought the sound might have started after you worked on the crankshaft to balancer bolt issue. Plus the mechanic found the noise to be in that area.

From the information above here's what I would do: remove water pump to have good visual and next the crank drive bolts and pulley.

Water pump could be hitting the timing cover or crank pulley bolts too long. Fire the engine, if the noise still exists, remove the crank to balancer bolt and grab the balancer with both hands and see if it is loose on the crank.

I know this sounds silly to some but if the crank snout-balancer is damaged you've chased the problem to here. Perfectly OK to run the engine for testing without the bolt if the balancer is tight. Fire the engine again, if the noise still exists shut down the engine and look very carefully with a good light 360 degrees on backside of the balancer for good clearance between the balancer and timing cover.

Any witness marks of the backside of the balancer rubbing something. This is very tight even when everything is perfect. A junk China timing cover has me suspect as would a used or junk China balancer. When you installed the balancer bolt and snugged it up the balancer it might have fully seated to the crank and caused the noise to appear you are trying to chase. Likely you'll find the problem in the above paragraph. If not post and we can dig a little deeper.

Steve weim55 Colorado

Weim55,

The mechanic lives in my town and only a couple blocks from my house so I thought it was a no brainer to get someone to come look at the issue for the price and like you mentioned throwing money at parts until the problem might be fixed.

I mentioned the 'the crankshaft to balancer bolt issue' because I thought that maybe if I didnt drill it out 100% straight that it could have broken something on the crank or maybe spun a bearing because it went all out of wack. Like I mentioned with the bolt in there the bottom pully was shimming a little as the motor was running hence why I immediately pulled it out. DSRaven says that even is that is the case it should be fine to have the bolt in there if it wasn't 100% correctly drilled.

With the edelbrock water pump the previous owner put on the engine there is plenty of room between the timing cover and water pump so I don't think there is any rubbing issues going on there.

I never really thought about the issue that the crank pulley bolts could be to long and rubbing. I'll have to check that since I installed the proper crank bolt it could have pulled the balancer into the proper position. who knows if he tried to re-install it with a 2x4 instead of the proper tools. I think the bolts that were used for the pully are not OEM length.

I will check clearances between the balancer and timing cover as you mentioned above. But as you mentioned when I installed the new bolt it could have snugged the balancer up against the crank in the proper position.

But when I think back the truck has been started at least a dozen times before the exhaust was installed. The same bolt was still installed in the crank and the sound was not there. So the question still remains on 'What happened' after the exhaust was installed on the truck, what broke.

Thank you everyone for all your time and suggestions. If anyone has any other thoughts please chime in.

[Volfandt]

The sound definitely gets louder as you moved the cam towards the front and based on what your mechanic said about isolating it to under the timing cover, I would be pulling that water pump and balance and removing that timing cover for a look see. If nothing was apparent I'd be dropping the oil pan in no uncertain terms. I wouldn't run it unnecessarily anymore as you will make a bad situation worse.
Thats metal on metal and that isn't a good sound on an ICE...
Get your wrenches out and start checking.

Good luck

[MiraclePieCo]

Originally Posted by NeoJuice

But when I think back the truck has been started at least a dozen times before the exhaust was installed. The same bolt was still installed in the crank and the sound was not there. So the question still remains on 'What happened' after the exhaust was installed on the truck, what broke.

Was the open exhaust just so darn loud that you couldn't hear the screaming noise because of it?

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by MiraclePieCo

Was the open exhaust just so darn loud that you couldnt hear the screaming noise because of it?

before getting the exhaust on it was hard to tell anything because it was so loud coming off the header. So I cant be certain or not and the truck hasnt ran for more the 30 seconds at at time. But I will now update my post with some interesting information i found out today.

[dsraven]

if you want to try and find out what happened before pulling the engine, you could pull the water pump and vibration damper off and then pull the 2 alignment pins from the block, that hold the timing cover aligned (vice grips may work, this will allow the cover to be pulled straight up to clear the oil pan gasket), and then remove the bolts for the cover and remove the cover. that will give you a look at the timing gear set and the back side of the cover. it would just be peace of mind for you.

[NeoJuice]

OK so hear is my update for tonight. I was able to get a hold of the previous owner of the truck via txt.

He told me that the truck has a Pete Jackson gear drive on the truck with a Edelbrock Part # 5002 Torker-Plus Camshaft. He said the cam might be to big for what I want to do with the truck. it might have a nice lope noise if it was tuned up properly.

https://www.edelbrock.com/torker-plu...0-v8-5002.html

https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...-91c/overview/

He said with the exhaust off the truck you would barely hear it but once the exhaust is on you hear it because it sounds like a damm super charger I explained to him. He said he wanted it to be loud and it definitely is.

So as my mechanic pointed the noise is definitely coming from behind the timing cover because its a damm gear drive.

Now that question is do I tear it off for a double roller timing chain? This gear drive totally over powers the entire sound of the truck since I just had dynomax super turbos put on the exhaust.

What are your thoughts. Do I get the timing/carb tuned up with this timing gear in the truck or pull it out? I mean once the truck it tuned up it might not be to bad. But I definitely dont want something that bloody loud. It would be like a real bad exhaust drowning noise in the cab except it's the timing gear cruising down the road at 70mph.

Examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MATs3uYyD3c
https://youtu.be/s8Yd03mvSjM?t=51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WybQuVxS-Sg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFKS_qws-_w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IYrJO0si5I

[Jason 56]

Just get a new timing chain set as you mentioned. They’re inexpensive. It’s really easy to change and the current setup isn’t what you want. Do like DSRaven said and pull the alignment pins in the cover so you don’t have to remove the pan. Align the timing marks on the gears before you remove them and replace. Make sure to put lock tight blue on the 3 cam bolt. You don’t want those coming loose.

[dsraven]

that's what I was referring to in post 35, about trying to find out what is inside the engine. I have heard a noisy gear drive timing set, they are noisier than a blower from the '70's. it would get annoying pretty quickly.
if I were you I would drag that gear drive out of there and install a quality timing gear set. maybe even change the cam if you want but then there is valve train and lifters to deal with as well so more work to do. you could simply drive it like it is and fix that later. you still should get it running properly so it at least idles.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by dsraven

that's what I was referring to in post 35, about trying to find out what is inside the engine. I have heard a noisy gear drive timing set, they are noisier than a blower from the '70's. it would get annoying pretty quickly.
if I were you I would drag that gear drive out of there and install a quality timing gear set. maybe even change the cam if you want but then there is valve train and lifters to deal with as well so more work to do. you could simply drive it like it is and fix that later. you still should get it running properly so it at least idles.

I was just talking to my buddy about it and he said to pull that timing gear off and put a good double roller on there instead. I don't want my truck to sound like that since i just put a new exhaust on it with dynomax super turbos. I've lined up a good contact to do the timing & carb tuning but that will now be delayed until I can get this cam gear swapped out.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by Jason 56

Just get a new timing chain set as you mentioned. They’re inexpensive. It’s really easy to change and the current setup isn’t what you want. Do like DSRaven said and pull the alignment pins in the cover so you don’t have to remove the pan. Align the timing marks on the gears before you remove them and replace. Make sure to put lock tight blue on the 3 cam bolt. You don’t want those coming loose.

Is there any brand of timing chain set someone might recommend? Edelbrock? Comp cams? Napa?

Where are the alignment pins? I know there are alignment pins to line up the timing cover but what about the oil pan? I don't really want to replace the pan gasket if I don't have to.

[Jason 56]

What are your plans for your truck? Daily driver? If so I would replace the cam with something more mild. That cam has a 108 degree lobe separation which means it isn’t going to idle very well n if you have power brakes they won’t work very well. That cam won’t produce much vacuum. It isn’t much harder to do the cam if you already have the gear set off!

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by Jason 56

What are your plans for your truck? Daily driver? If so I would replace the cam with something more mild. That cam has a 108 degree lobe separation which means it isn’t going to idle very well n if you have power brakes they won’t work very well. That cam won’t produce much vacuum. It isn’t much harder to do the cam if you already have the gear set off!

Plans are daily driver and drive it as much as I can

Well if I already have everything ripped apart i should maybe do that at the same time if you say i'll have low vacuum. I do have power brakes with an under floor brake booster. I finished running all my brake lines and stuff ages ago but havent been able to test them and pedal travel under running conditions with full vacuum.

Is there a better cam that you could recommend? Since the truck isnt running that great at this time I haven't even tested the brakes because that is the last thing on my mind to getting the motor running correctly.

As previously mentioned this project was a previous owner build which I'm trying to keep on a budget. Well I thought it was on budget lol.

[mongocanfly]

ive heard a lot of the Pete Jackson geardrives...they don't really sound like in your trucks video... I like the way they sound on a dragcar...not something id want on the street
swap cam and to a timing chain..youll be much happier

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

ive heard a lot of the Pete Jackson geardrives...they don't really sound like that video... I like the way they sound on a dragcar...not something id wanta on the street
swap cam and to a timing chain..youll be much happier

Any cam recommendations? I'm totally oblivious to this engine stuff so any help would be much appreciated.

[weim55]

As Jason56 said, cam currently in the engine is right in the edge to be streetable with power brakes and an automatic trans with a stock torque converter. That said if it were me I'd swap the timing set, tune the ignition and fuel and give her a try before all that extra work. But that's ME and I have a lot of experience with this stuff.

If you do chose to swap the cam I can give you a good recommendation. I've built dozens of small blocks over the years and my current fav for an application like yours is a CompCams XE262H-10. Done 3 builds with this cam and currently have one in my '65 C10 350 with a turbo 400, 3.54 gears and power brakes. VERY snappy and torquey off idle and pulls hard to 5500rpm. Difficult for me to find a performance cam with good vacuum for the high Colorado altitude. This one does nicely. Used the truck to pull my sons '56 Gasser to Kansas and then got to play with it at a 1000foot altitude on the streets of Great Bend. Couldn't believe the power for such a mild 350!

Personally I think some component of the gear drive is rubbing-hitting something inside the timing cover creating that hideous sound. The noise is certainly something above normal for a gear drive.

Steve weim55 Colorado

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by jason 56

just get a new timing chain set as you mentioned. They’re inexpensive. It’s really easy to change and the current setup isn’t what you want. Do like dsraven said and pull the alignment pins in the cover so you don’t have to remove the pan. Align the timing marks on the gears before you remove them and replace. Make sure to put lock tight blue on the 3 cam bolt. You don’t want those coming loose.

Originally Posted by dsraven

that's what i was referring to in post 35, about trying to find out what is inside the engine. I have heard a noisy gear drive timing set, they are noisier than a blower from the '70's. It would get annoying pretty quickly.
If i were you i would drag that gear drive out of there and install a quality timing gear set. Maybe even change the cam if you want but then there is valve train and lifters to deal with as well so more work to do. You could simply drive it like it is and fix that later. You still should get it running properly so it at least idles.

x2 x2. Besides, I still think there's a metal-to-metal interference thing going on. Chances are, the gear drive install may not be right.

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by NeoJuice

Any cam recommendations? I'm totally oblivious to this engine stuff so any help would be much appreciated.

If you're going flat tappet, the Comp Cams XE268H-10 isn't a bad choice for reasonable sound and street performance with a stock torque converter. If you can spend the extra bucks, go with a roller. Somebody else can chime in with a specific recommendation.

[burnin oil]

Surprised no one mentioned this. Make sure that the valves arnt set to tight. It is really easy to do on a hyd cam. End result is a valve that doesn’t seat completely, if at all, and vacuum issues. I almost bet that one or two are tight and that is why you think the carb and dizzy need tuned more.

For the knowledgeable gear drive guys. Isn’t there a possibility of block interference with gear drive on some blocks? I could of swore I read that somewhere. I always just ran double rollers and never gave it much thought.

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by burnin oil

Surprised no one mentioned this. Make sure that the valves arnt set to tight. It is really easy to do on a hyd cam. End result is a valve that doesn’t seat completely, if at all, and vacuum issues. I almost bet that one or two are tight and that is why you think the carb and dizzy need tuned more.

For the knowledgeable gear drive guys. Isn’t there a possibility of block interference with gear drive on some blocks? I could of swore I read that somewhere. I always just ran double rollers and never gave it much thought.

Both of these are good points. I'm remembering the way the engine ran in the one video, and that "chugging" sure could be caused by tight valves.

[whitedog76]

I was looking at Edeldbrock's gear drive instructions. Seems as though there is quite a bit of clearance issues associated with installing a gear drive unit. Given the same guy that installed the gear drive also didn't install the flex plate bolts... I watched all your videos again, your engine sounds fairly healthy with the exception of the high pitch squeal. I think it's safe to say that the front cover needs to come off and the gear drive needs to go.

Here's the Edelbrock instuctions. http://www.catalograck.com/imgvd/EDE/7890.pdf

I did the liberty of looking at NAPA for timing gears. $36.39 and up. Single roller, double roller, true roller, shouldn't matter. They'll all get the job done.

https://www.napacanada.com/en/search...=nol-veh-conds

While your at it, here's some new Camshafts. The Torker cam is a little much for a street engine, unless you plan on going to the drag strip and doing a shot of nitrous. I've used the Edelbrock Performer before. It's good on the street, torquey down low, but still good power in the 4000+ RPM range. https://www.napacanada.com/en/search...RefSearch=true

Once you get the gear drive off, you'll be able to tell quite a bit about the engine. Especially if there's a spun bearing, etc...

Hope this helps.

Chris

[Driver_WT]

Originally Posted by weim55

If you do chose to swap the cam I can give you a good recommendation. I've built dozens of small blocks over the years and my current fav for an application like yours is a CompCams XE262H-10. Done 3 builds with this cam and currently have one in my '65 C10 350 with a turbo 400, 3.54 gears and power brakes. VERY snappy and torquey off idle and pulls hard to 5500rpm. Difficult for me to find a performance cam with good vacuum for the high Colorado altitude. This one does nicely. Used the truck to pull my sons '56 Gasser to Kansas and then got to play with it at a 1000foot altitude on the streets of Great Bend. Couldn't believe the power for such a mild 350!


Steve weim55 Colorado

I would definitely change the cam, you are not going to like how the current cam works nor will you like the gas mileage. the XE262H-10 is a great recommendation for a cam. This cam and lifters are pretty good value and along with your new timing chain and gears you will be set. Here is more info on this cam http://www.compcams.com/v002/Pages/387/XE262H-10.aspx

Wade

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by weim55

As Jason56 said, cam currently in the engine is right in the edge to be streetable with power brakes and an automatic trans with a stock torque converter. That said if it were me I'd swap the timing set, tune the ignition and fuel and give her a try before all that extra work. But that's ME and I have a lot of experience with this stuff.

If you do chose to swap the cam I can give you a good recommendation. I've built dozens of small blocks over the years and my current fav for an application like yours is a CompCams XE262H-10. Done 3 builds with this cam and currently have one in my '65 C10 350 with a turbo 400, 3.54 gears and power brakes. VERY snappy and torquey off idle and pulls hard to 5500rpm. Difficult for me to find a performance cam with good vacuum for the high Colorado altitude. This one does nicely. Used the truck to pull my sons '56 Gasser to Kansas and then got to play with it at a 1000foot altitude on the streets of Great Bend. Couldn't believe the power for such a mild 350!

Personally I think some component of the gear drive is rubbing-hitting something inside the timing cover creating that hideous sound. The noise is certainly something above normal for a gear drive.

Steve weim55 Colorado

weim55,

Thank you for the tips. I do believe there is probably something rubbing with the gear drive but that should be resolved once I swap it out for a double roller and I can investigate further.

According to google the altitude here in Edmonton is 645M. So will this cam work good? I dont want to rip it all apart and find out I have issues to have to rip it all apart again to swap the cam.

Reading over DsRavens post about the timing pins I didnt know they were removable. So that makes it a lot easier then having to do the oil pan gasket over again.

As for the transmission I was told it has a Stage 2 shift kit, Beast sun shell 3000 Stall converter. So I'm not sure if that information helps you out any.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by whitedog76

I was looking at Edeldbrock's gear drive instructions. Seems as though there is quite a bit of clearance issues associated with installing a gear drive unit. Given the same guy that installed the gear drive also didn't install the flex plate bolts... I watched all your videos again, your engine sounds fairly healthy with the exception of the high pitch squeal. I think it's safe to say that the front cover needs to come off and the gear drive needs to go.

Here's the Edelbrock instuctions. http://www.catalograck.com/imgvd/EDE/7890.pdf

I did the liberty of looking at NAPA for timing gears. $36.39 and up. Single roller, double roller, true roller, shouldn't matter. They'll all get the job done.

https://www.napacanada.com/en/search...&jobId=1104100

While your at it, here's some new Camshafts. The Torker cam is a little much for a street engine, unless you plan on going to the drag strip and doing a shot of nitrous. I've used the Edelbrock Performer before. It's good on the street, torquey down low, but still good power in the 4000+ RPM range. https://www.napacanada.com/en/search...RefSearch=true

Once you get the gear drive off, you'll be able to tell quite a bit about the engine. Especially if there's a spun bearing, etc...

Hope this helps.

Chris

whitedog76,

Thank you for all the information. Do you think I will need to do the lifters are well? or should they run with what I would think are the stock lifters still in the engine.

One of your Napa links does not work. I did a search and there are 14 different timing kits to choose from. And for the camshaft it shows one part number SEP CS274

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by DransportGarage

Both of these are good points. I'm remembering the way the engine ran in the one video, and that "chugging" sure could be caused by tight valves.

I will check this as well. Thanks for the tips.

Please remember that the timing has not been set either then TDC on #1 and the distributor dropped in. The carb and distributor are plugged off and the carb is a fresh rebuild i did and I'm not sure the step up springs/metering rods are good or the idle speed screw needs adjusting and the air fuel mixture screws are set correctly.