Help starter driving me nuts!....

[Lippyp]

Help! I had to replace my starter motor as my old one died on me after too much heat soak, the first remanufactured unit didn't work at all, the second one I have on now starts fine when cold, but after driving for a short while spins over fine but doesn't engage with the flexplate and so doesn't spin the engine and makes a horrible noise, do I just need to add another shim or two under it or is this starter faulty as well? I can see marks on the flat front edge of the flexplate where the starter drive seems to be hitting the flexplate and not engaging with the teeth. This is my first small block ever and I don't really know what I'm doing with it as all the starters I've worked on before bolted straight into the bell housing of whichever engie it was rather than to the block and needed no adjustment. I've checked with the little rod they supply with the motor and to my untutored eye it seems fine. I just don't understand why it's fine when cold and will start over and over but won't work when hot. Oh and I also don't currently have a brace on the back of the starter as there wasn't one on there when I bought the truck and chevy's just don't exist in junkyards over here.

Please help me before I curl up in a corner and cry with frustration! I've got a heap of garden and construction rubbish getting bigger and bigger in the garden and my wife is giving me meaningful looks when she walks past it so I need to get my truck working to get it to the dump or I may never have sex again!

[Lippyp]

Failing that can any of the vendors here supply me with a rebuild kit to recondition my old starter? (Bear in mind I am in the UK)

[jay6891]

They can be a pain in the a$$. You might try cuttin you shims in half and install on just one side. Installing on block side will move starter away from flywheel, installing on exhaust side will move it closer. Working when cold, how does it sound? You might have a bad nose cone on that brand new rebuilt starter. I personally have gone thru 3 of them to get a good one.

[Lippyp]

When it's cold it starts and sounds just fine. Can I swap the nosecone from my old starter over to the new one?

[Bleach]

Hey Lippy, there is a truly heavy duty starter out there for sale called "Mean Green". Do a google search for "mean green starters" and I'm sure you'll locate a place where you can purchase them. These things are totally bulletproof. You'll pay for it as they are high, but from what I hear they would fit the bill, especially if you weren't ever going to get laid again because of it.

[jay6891]

Yes you can swap them out. I would take the old one apart first so you know how it is assembled. Take the two long bolts loose in the back of the starter, I don't remove, because if the rear cover comes off it can be a PITA to get the magnets, contacters whatever they are back in. If I remember right the nose cone should come off when you loosen these 2 bolts. It has been several years since I have taken one apart, so play with the old one first.

[SLS]

I have headers on my engine and when the engine reached operating temp the started would not engage at all. No spinning...no clicking...NOTHING. But when it was cold, or even cool, it would work fine.

I installed a insulating wrap and a metal heat shield around the starter and it has been working fine.

[Lippyp]

Yep, that's why I had to swap it out, I managed to get another couple of years out iof it by wrapping it up in a heat shieldf blanket, but it finally gave up at the gas pump at my local filling station (very embarrasing, made even worse by the fact I had an evil hangover that day!) The new one is wrapped from day one.

I've got a Haynes manual and the 67 Chassis servie manual so I'll have a look at that. I'm assuming the nose cne ma have been machined off centre or some such. I can't really justify the cost of a high torque mini starter at the moment for my stock engine and ramshorns.

[71Longbed]

if your having alot of problem with over heating get a mini starter it shouldnt over heat theres too good companies i know of Tilton and Powermaster you can purchase them on summitracing.com the powermaster is less expensive and will work on some big blocks and all smal blocks

[Orange70chevy]

I had the same problem and a AC Delco starter will fix it. Cost more than a rebuilt one but worth it.

[passthebuck]

I've had a million starter problems in my time with small block chevies. I once had a flexplate that was not "true" (egg shgaped) & if the engine stoped at that point I had to slip under & turn it with a screwdriver a few inches to get it to engage. Another time I kept either breaking the bolts that hold the starter on OR having them come loose & then the starter would shift a bit & again, not engage. I've learned that when ever I have the starter out (even if I'm not having a starter problem at that time) to change: 1) the nose cone bushing, 2) the brushes, 3) the shift fork, 4) open up the solenoid & wirewheel the disk & the main copper contact that the battery cable attaches to & lastly to clean out all that crap & sand & oil that collects in there. Upon reassaembly I grease the shaft a bit under the drive & a tiny bit of grease in the bushings.

Lippyp: If I had to guess whats exactly wrong with your starter from your description, I'd have to say that either the ringgear on the flywheel or flexplate is wonkey or mabe the drive inside the starter is worn or wonkey. I also think that it could be the bushing in the nose cone. that bushing sets the distance from the ringgear. You could try the nosecone swap to see what happens - make your life easier & put a new bushing in there first. If a vendor cant help you here, I'll help you with the parts you need. I know my way around the local parts store catalog. Feel free to pm me or post here. Keep me posted.

[Lippyp]

OK everyone, thanks for the advice so far.

The old starter started fine when cold and just suffered from heat soak when hot but still started eventually if a little slow to turn over, it engaged fine with the ring gear hot and cold. The flexplate hasn't changed since then. The heat soak I think was just an age factor as it looks like it had been on a while although it was a rebuilt unit also.

The starter I'm using now is a remanufactured unit (made in Mexico), it turns over fine when cold and hot and when jumped off the vehicle, it starts fine when cold but when hot refuses to engage with the ring gear. I'm going to try another shim just in case the expansion of the ring gear/flexplate when hot is preventing the gears from engaging. If not I'm going to see what the supplier has to say.

The big problem with being in the UK is I don't have a huge choice of suppliers over here, the two main ones I use both supply the same remanned units. I'll have to try them on monday and see if I can get a rebuild kit over here or a new AC Delco starter, if not are there any online suppliers you can reccomend that'll ship to the UK (summit will but charge a huge one off admin fee on international orders and Jegs won't ship outside the UK. I have bought stuff from both Wes at Classic Heartbeat and GMC Pauls in the past, but I can't see this sort of thing listed on their sites. Shipping a heavy starter across the atlantic will be very expensive.

How hard is rebuilding a starter, I may just get the kit and find a pro rebuilder over here.

[passthebuck]

starter rebuilding is easy. you can do it all with a set of sockets, some screwdrivers, a hammer & some pliers. I'll talk you through it. If you need parts, ask & I'll mail them out to you. have a digi camera? that would help when it comes time to rebuild. Another question - did you get under there & look at the starter while somebody was turning the key? It'll be loud as hell but that might give you an idea about what corrective action may be taken....

[jlmtrout]

Have you tried the old starter with the new solenoid? You can take the old solenoid apart and you'll see a flat wheel that looks sort of like a cymbal. Flip it over and reassemble the solenoid and the solenoid should work. Swapping out the noses is simple, as the housing and the nose have an alingment dowel. Just be carefull to get the fork for the solenoid plunger to engage the correct groove on the starter bendix shaft. Good luck and keep on truckin'.......Jerry

[Lippyp]

Right then, I've phoned around and don't seem to be able to buy a rebuild kit over here or a decent AC Delco starter, they all seem to carry the same remade in mexico stuff. Is it likely to have been the solenoid that causes heat soak problems? if so I should be able to swap the solenoid from the new starter over to the old one right? Also how easy is it to fit new brushes to the motor as again I could take those from the "new" starter and swap them over. My Haynes manual and the Chassis service manual I have only cover replacing the solenoid and not brushes so if one of you wonderful people could tell me how to do that I would be grateful.

[stllookn]

Lippy, When you installed the starter did you make certain the spacing between the ring gear and the starter shaft was precisely 0.125 inch as specified in the installation instructions? The 0.125 inch pin (supplied with the new starter) should just slide between the starter shaft and the flex plate gear. You may have to tighten the starter and play with the shims in different locations a couple of times to get this right. I occasionaly get in a hurry and/or miss this step which creates problems.

[passthebuck]

the brushes live at the opposite end from the nose. Those two bolts will have to be undone & the endplate will have to come off. Before you do that though, you must remove the solenoid. That is three bolts. One of those three is on the very end of the solenoid & connects the solenoid to the fieldwindings. The other two are where the solenoid bolts to the nose. After those bolts are out, twist the solenoid to unlock that the tab that locates the solenoid on the main housing. then remove the long bolts that (7/16" head I think) hold the starter together. the armature/bendix should saty in the nosecone, the heavy middle part with the field windings will come off & the aluminum endplate will come off. The nose is located on the middlepart with a locating pin - this is for correct alignment upon reassembly. look in the end of the middle part - at the ends of those little arms are the bushings. They are worn if it looks like the arm that holds them is going to touch the armature soon. reassemble in reverse making note of the alignment pin & where it goes in the nose. You'll have to align the through bolts that hold it all together by looking through the hols & truning the endplate until you see the light. Is this too quick or do I miss stuff? post here & I'll flesh it out if you need it.

[Lippyp]

Originally Posted by stllookn

Lippy, When you installed the starter did you make certain the spacing between the ring gear and the starter shaft was precisely 0.125 inch as specified in the installation instructions? The 0.125 inch pin (supplied with the new starter) should just slide between the starter shaft and the flex plate gear. You may have to tighten the starter and play with the shims in different locations a couple of times to get this right. I occasionaly get in a hurry and/or miss this step which creates problems.

I thought I'd got this right with no shims, but it had the problem as above, I've tried adding shims and still nothing. If this was a simple alignment problem would it start when cold but not when hot?

[stllookn]

Lippy, I went back and reread your post and saw that you did check with the rod...it just has to slip in...not too tight and not too loose. But check it around the entire flex plate to make sure you don't have a flex plate problem.

The two problems can be unrelated. Proper engagement can occur at any time but it all starts with the spacing. Did you check the clearance at 180 degrees from where it was set? You might just want to check it at 120 degrees as well. Mark the flex plate where you start and move it tooth by tooth with a big screw driver to see if there is a spot where the clearance is not right. I have had them break, lose a rivet and warp. It is no fun to change one but you might as well check it carefully to ensure there is not a problem there.

Does it always click and spin when you turn the key when it is hot? Is it that it just does not engage the flex plate or hits on edge of the flex plate and makes that awful noise?

I had a hot start problem that I never did find (it also occurred after lots of cranking if the engine would not start). Mine would either work or would not even click the solenoid. I had to hook up an auxilliary wire to the starter solenoid to use in an emergency, which was frequently. I would touch the wire to the positive terminal on the battery to start the truck. I suspected the problem was in the ignition switch. It had to be a weak or corroded wire in the start circuit since heat or load (also generates heat in the wires) would cause high resistance the the solenoid would not engage. This happened with both the new and old starter. Replacing all the grounds and some wires helped but it still happened from time to time. I have since switched cabs and ignition switches but I am still working on getting back on the road.

One thing you might do is to run it around a bit and bring it home then pull the starter. Lay it on the driveway and hook it to the the car battery with jumper cables. Use another positive wire to try to engage the solenoid to see how it actuates when hot and out of the vehicle. This might indicate if it is the bendix unit or something else that is hanging up when the temp goes up.

Good Luck...think positive thoughts...LOL.

[BobbyK]

Do you have the bracket that is suppose to brace the back of the starter?
These starters are HEAVY.Over time the back end can sag,decreasing the space between the flexplate and the starter gears.That may cause binding.
I went through 2 starters then found out about the rear bracket that is supposed to be there.
It's been 4 years now and I haven't had a problem since I added the rear bracket.

It looks like this.


That add is from the Classic Industries catolog.
Click HERE
and enter "starter brace" in the search box.

[PMS]

Not trying to be a smart ass but I had that problem before and installed heavy gauge cables to the starter and checked to make sure the battery was fully charged. If the temp. outside is hot your battery looses some of it's ability to apply juice to the starter. The cables and a fully charged battery solved my problems with the starter.

[Lippyp]

So the next installment of the saga:

I have again pulled the new starter off (getting pretty quick now!) and sat it next to the old one. The solenoids are totally different, the one on the new starter is shorter in length and will not fit on the old starter as the plunger/piston inside the new one is a smaller diameter than the old starter and the new solenoid will not slip over the old piston. The old solenoid does have "Heavy Duty" cast into the plastic part of the end cap.

The two starters have different part numbers stamped into the main body of the starter itself:

Old: 1108434 9K16
New 1998562 SB312

Both have Delco-Remy stamped there as well

Also the bendix gear in the two starters sits at different distances from the nose bearing. The old one is back inside the starter nose completely about 22mm from the front edge of the gear to the bearing and the new one protrudes slightly from the housing at about 16mm from the bearing.

From this does it sound like I have the wrong starter completely or are these variations normal? I can't get a rebuild kit over here either. The new starter is a "Master Quality" part (Quality my @ss!)

[passthebuck]

as for the bendix gear sitting at different distances, I dont believe that is the problem - those gears are sprung & it could have different tension due to different manufacturing differences. As for solenoid length, the shorter solenoid is a money-saving move by GM in the 70ies. The smaller, lower compression motors didnt need the bigger solenoid. Also, these shorter solenoids were lighter (better gas milage). The solenoids will swap if you swap the plungers (its only a friction-fit pin that is tapped in/out by a hammer). In addition to swaping plungers, you will need to shim mwith washers, the electrical connection at very end of the solenoid that connects the solenoid to the fieldwindings. A few washers & a longer bolt will do the job. Dont get in a twist over different part numbers, there are a few variations of GM starters but for the most part, they are rather cut-&-dryed = they either bolt on or wont work at all. Keep us poster - we're here for ya.

[Lippyp]

OK, I'll have a look at swapping the plungers over and moving the nw solenoid onto the old starter, the new one already has a piece of copper tube and a long bolt that I can swap over to connect the solenoid up with.

Thanks

[ddsmith]

This is probably not a popular reply. After suffering problems with hot starting and being stranded for a while until the starter cooled down I bought one of the PMGR mini starters for my truck and have not regretted it one bit. I think this starter will turn forever. I currently experience a slow start (not due to the starter) which I believe is caused by the gas tank caps not being vented. When the fuel heats up it expands into the carb and I get a flood condition until I crank for a while. This starter doesn't care how hot it is. It doesn't miss a beat. I got it on e-bay from DBElectrical for $109.00 delivered. It was well worth it for me. My problem was I didn't want to put in a AutoZone junk starter. Sure they'll replace it for free if it doesn't work but it is my labor every time it has to be done. Good luck on the starter repair/replace.