Tbi swap build thread

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by 68 TT

You really need to data log what is going on to know what the ECM is seeing that makes it run poorly when cold then clean up when the engine gets up to temp.

It sounds like an open loop vs. closed loop issue to me. The CTS is a possible source giving the ECM faulty info but there could be several other causes.

Data logging is a good place to start. It helped me diagnose a vacuum leak that two mechanic friends thought was a fuel system issue. It will also let you see where you can fine tune the programming to suite your particular setup.

Agree - get ALDL cable and WinALDL program. It is must for any TBI equipped car or truck!

//RF

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by rfmaster

Agree - get ALDL cable and WinALDL program. It is must for any TBI equipped car or truck!

//RF

That and a laptop plus a power inverter so you can drive around and data log any issues you are having without killing the laptop battery.

[mcbassin]

Originally Posted by rfmaster

Agree - get ALDL cable and WinALDL program. It is must for any TBI equipped car or truck!

//RF

Where do you get one of these and which one is recommended?

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by mcbassin

Where do you get one of these and which one is recommended?

http://www.thirdgen.org is a great resource for DIY tuning info of the TBI ECM's. They have a great tuning FAQ section that will lead you through pretty much anything you could want to do with the TBI system and many of the guys on the board really know what they are doing and can help you out if you get stuck. It will give you links to tuning software (mostly shareware) and hardware that work great for what we are working on.

http://www.obd1.com/

This is the cable I have.

http://www.moates.net is a good resource for chip adapters & burning hardware and Craig makes what I use.

There are many other places out there but these are just what I have used and know function well.

[mcbassin]

Originally Posted by 68 TT

http://www.thirdgen.org is a great resource for DIY tuning info of the TBI ECM's. They have a great tuning FAQ section that will lead you through pretty much anything you could want to do with the TBI system and many of the guys on the board really know what they are doing and can help you out if you get stuck. It will give you links to tuning software (mostly shareware) and hardware that work great for what we are working on.

http://www.obd1.com/

This is the cable I have.

http://www.moates.net is a good resource for chip adapters & burning hardware and Craig makes what I use.

There are many other places out there but these are just what I have used and know function well.

Okay, I see the cable is available with USB connector. What software do you need to "read" the ECM data?

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by mcbassin

Okay, I see the cable is available with USB connector. What software do you need to "read" the ECM data?

TunerPro RT is a popular one that I use. It will data log and allow you to adjust the tune in the programing as well. You will still need a PROM burner to burn the new PROM.

http://www.tunerpro.net/

It comes with the Moates prom burner I have but you can download it for free and donate money to Mark if you like it.

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by 68 TT

TunerPro RT is a popular one that I use. It will data log and allow you to adjust the tune in the programing as well. You will still need a PROM burner to burn the new PROM.

http://www.tunerpro.net/

It comes with the Moates prom burner I have but you can download it for free and donate money to Mark if you like it.

Blue72

Before getting into ECM tuning (which is another world in itself) I would first get some data logging. As suggested by previous posts you need to get data capture tools in line and running (ALDL cable, Lappy, DC-DC converter, WinALDL or TunerPro-RT). Make sure that you know how to configure program save ECM sensor data to a file. Get setup up and running on your drive way first, then go for some test drives. Thereafter you can do a parametric data analysis on a captured data. Loads of fun - I use Excel to import raw data and for plotting.

//RF

[glock35ipsc]

Jamie, rfmaster, or anyone else......

I am in the middle of a 5.3L Vortec install in my 85, which prior to this had been converted to TBI with parts from a donor 87.

I am trying to find the wire that runs from the firewall to the pumps, the wire that actually powers the fuel pumps. Is it the tan/white wire that comes from the relay that powers the pumps? What about power for the tank selector switch, is it from the same wire?

I have a signal wire that comes from the 5.3's PCM that will turn on a relay. I just need to find the wire that goes to run the pumps now.

[mcbassin]

Bob,
On mine it is a grey wire that goes to the fuel pump. I don't know about yours because my donor is car harness.

mike

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by glock35ipsc

Jamie, rfmaster, or anyone else......

I am in the middle of a 5.3L Vortec install in my 85, which prior to this had been converted to TBI with parts from a donor 87.

I am trying to find the wire that runs from the firewall to the pumps, the wire that actually powers the fuel pumps. Is it the tan/white wire that comes from the relay that powers the pumps? What about power for the tank selector switch, is it from the same wire?

I have a signal wire that comes from the 5.3's PCM that will turn on a relay. I just need to find the wire that goes to run the pumps now.

If TBI conversion followed factory layout look for BOSCH style fuel pump relay on the firewall. The tan-white or sometimes gray wire is a switched side of the FP relay. That wire should be 12 or 10 AWG - large diameter wire since any voltage drop results in reduced FP fuel pressure.

The tank switch should be a completely different circuit - I do not have this information handy at this time

//RF

[glock35ipsc]

Exactly the info I needed, thank you very much!!!!

[pancake]

Hello again all,

Ok, I am finally going to do the TBI swap into my 4x4. I took it to Mt. Blanca over Labor adn that was the last time for the winter. I have time to finally do the swap.

I was going over the parts and forgot where some stuff goes

Can you please help me the following:

1)Where does the vacuum tube from the MAP sensor attach to the TBI?

2)Where does the Charcoal Canister hook to the TBI unit

3) Which side of the TBI, Drvier or passanger, is the fuel supply line and which is the return.

4) There is a fitting in the intake located in the intake plenum above the #8 cylinder. It looks like a vacuum hose was attached to it? Do you know where it might go?

5) the vacuum port on the back of the TBI unit labled F. Do you know what goes to this port?


Thanks again for all the great information and I am glad to see that this thread is STILL going.

[mcbassin]

I may be wrong but I think the Map vacuum hose hooks up to the port on the rear of the tbi in the middle. The fuel inlet is the driver side port. Not sure about your other questions because I have yet to figure them out on our swap yet.

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by pancake

Hello again all,

Ok, I am finally going to do the TBI swap into my 4x4. I took it to Mt. Blanca over Labor adn that was the last time for the winter. I have time to finally do the swap.

I was going over the parts and forgot where some stuff goes

Can you please help me the following:

1)Where does the vacuum tube from the MAP sensor attach to the TBI?

2)Where does the Charcoal Canister hook to the TBI unit

3) Which side of the TBI, Drvier or passanger, is the fuel supply line and which is the return.

4) There is a fitting in the intake located in the intake plenum above the #8 cylinder. It looks like a vacuum hose was attached to it? Do you know where it might go?

5) the vacuum port on the back of the TBI unit labled F. Do you know what goes to this port?


Thanks again for all the great information and I am glad to see that this thread is STILL going.

I always said that the picture is worth a thousand of explanations. Attached photo is from passenger car TBI (B-Body). TB's used on trucks may not have the AC port, other than that they are the same. VERY IMPORTANT - MAP sensor should be the only device connected to the back side vacuum port, do not use T or hang anything else of that port.

Passenger side fuel side is used for return and driver side is fuel supply from fuel pump. Fuel return is smaller of the two.

[pancake]

Thanks for the pictures! They really help.

Do you know where the vacuum hose coming off the intake by the #8 cylinder goes? A adapter is threaded into the plenum and I think a vacuum hose attaches to it.

Thanks again.

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by pancake

Thanks for the pictures! They really help.

Do you know where the vacuum hose coming off the intake by the #8 cylinder goes? A adapter is threaded into the plenum and I think a vacuum hose attaches to it.

Thanks again.

IFRC, that vacuum tap is used for Power Brake booster.


//RF

[pancake]

Thanks RF.

I know where the vacuum for the power booster screws in, it is under the driver side front of the TBI. The vacuum I am talking about is between the dizzy and the tbi, just over the #8 cylinder intake. It looks like a smaller vacuum hose pushes onto it. There is a tall hex shaped adapter screwed into the intake with a nipple coming off it for a vacuum hose, I think.

I will try to get a picture.

The truck did have cruise controll..could it have been attached to that?


Thanks again.

[rfmaster]

The only way to answer is to take a look at (if possible ) undisturbed donor or take a look in FSM. Over the years that cyl 8 tap was used for everything but a kitchen sink. For conversion sake you should make sure that there are no vacuum leaks in induction system - the number one headache in speed density (SD) systems since it relies on MAP to provide engine load information to ECM. Quality gaskets, clean, straight matting surfaces are paramount, as well as taking time to put it all together.

//RF

[pancake]

I finally got around to doing the conversion.

After getting the intake on I am having trouble installing the Dizzy.

I lined up the dizzy to TDC on the #1 cylinder when I took the old one out. I have the TBI dizzy installed so the rotor is pointing in the same spot as the old dizzy.

The question I have is how does the Dizzy cap go on? Where on the cap should the #1 cylinder wire hook to? does it matter? Is it marke on the cap itself?

Thanks again for the help and I will be posting pictures soon.

[cjracing15]

If you have #1 at tdc you can make number one where ever you want. I like it in the stock location at about 5 a clock. Then ofcourse run your wires 18436572 clockwise. THis will get you close so you can crank it up. Then set it at o with the bypass unpluged with a timming lite. Good luck.

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by pancake

Thanks RF.

I know where the vacuum for the power booster screws in, it is under the driver side front of the TBI. The vacuum I am talking about is between the dizzy and the tbi, just over the #8 cylinder intake. It looks like a smaller vacuum hose pushes onto it. There is a tall hex shaped adapter screwed into the intake with a nipple coming off it for a vacuum hose, I think.

I will try to get a picture.

The truck did have cruise controll..could it have been attached to that?


Thanks again.

Typically that is used for transmission vacuum but it also gets used for power brakes too.

On a high performance engine that pulls minimal vacuum you can actually lean out the #8 cylinder by plumbing power brakes to it.

Run the power brakes from the port on the throttle body.

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by pancake

I finally got around to doing the conversion.

After getting the intake on I am having trouble installing the Dizzy.

I lined up the dizzy to TDC on the #1 cylinder when I took the old one out. I have the TBI dizzy installed so the rotor is pointing in the same spot as the old dizzy.

The question I have is how does the Dizzy cap go on? Where on the cap should the #1 cylinder wire hook to? does it matter? Is it marke on the cap itself?

Thanks again for the help and I will be posting pictures soon.

I like the 5 o'clock position as well like it is pointed towards the #1 cylinder.

I always mark the #1 location on the cap and the distributor base with a sharpie so it is easy to see where the rotor needs to point and where the #1 plug wire belongs.

[pancake]

Hi guys, Almost done with the TBI insatll.

I have a few more questions:

1) B2 gray wire...goes to oil pressure, and fuel pump relay....does it also power the fuel pump?

2) D6 Ground wire...also connects to A12...Book says 02 ground?..Putting in a 4 wire 02 sensor..do I use D6 for the ground?

3) A6 book says "hot in start OR run" where do I run this wire? Fuse? what size fuse?

4) B1 and C16 same orange wire...12 volts? where do I run this wire? Fuse? Size fuse?

5)Where do I run the large pink wire from the top of the coil? Fuse? What size fuse? Do I hook it to the wire that came off the old Dizzy?

6) The instructions with the VSS say to ground it to the ECM....where should I ground it ( what number wire)?

7) C9 puirple wire to small starter terminal...I belive my starter has two small terminals (could be wrong) are they labled? if so which on do I connect C9 to?
What size wire? Fuse? What size fuse?

8) 4 wire 02 sensor (AFS75 AC/Delco)

Wire code on 02 sensor=
A=White
B=Blue
C=Black
D=black

Where on the relay do these wire connect?

My eletrical knowledge is VERY liminted...so please keep all answers as SIMPLE as possible.


Thank you all for keeping this post going

[pancake]

Sorry for all the questions about the wiring.....but I really do not know what I am doing....I would welcome any help at all.


Thanks again

[cjracing15]

Originally Posted by pancake

Sorry for all the questions about the wiring.....but I really do not know what I am doing....I would welcome any help at all.


Thanks again

Ok here are all the pin outs and the color of the wires. My computer is the standard #1227747

A1- grn/wht- this wire is used to power the fuel pump-relay.
A2- no wire
A3- no wire
A4- gry- to egr-relay. This is a ground for the ECM to control the EGR relay.
A5- brn/wht- service soon light. This is a ground to turn on the light.
A6- pink/blk- switched 12v from the ignition relay.
A7- no wire
A8- ornange aldl serial data wire pin-e
A9- wht/blk-aldl pin B When jumpered to ground will set the computer to diagnostic mode.
A10- brn- VSS speed sensor signal to the computer, (This wire I will wire this to on side of a after market VSS sensor and the other wire on the sensor goes to ground).
A11- blk- MAP sensor ground.
A12- blk/wht- System ground. This wire is tied to other grounds in the harness and goes to engine ground.

B1- orn- 12v batt power ( I looked and traced down this wire on my 87 cab harness and this is fuesed I think it was a 15). I will probably use a inline fuse.
B2- tan/wht- Fuel pump signal from the relay. This one ties into several places, the fuel pump, the relay, and the ecm. When the relay is on it sends 12 volts to trun on the fuel pump.
B3- blk/red- Distributor plug
B4- no wire
B5- purple/wht- Distributor plug
B6- no wire
B7- blk- ESC signal This is the knock sensor signal to the computer.
B8- dk grn- AC signal. This tells the ECM that the AC is turned on. I am going to tie this into the ac clutch wire.
B9- no wire
B10-orange/blk- park neutral switch wire. some people say this is optional but I do not think it is because it gives a signal to the computer to give the engine a slight bump in rpm.(if you don't need it why did they put it there?)
B11- no wire
B12- no wire

C1- no wire
C2- brn- wire is not needed
C3-grn/blk- Idle air control
C4-grn/wht- Idle air control
C5-blue/wht- Idle air control
C6-blue/blk- Idle air control C3-C6 all go to the Idle air control valve plug on the TBI it's self.
C7- no wire
C8- no wire
C9- purple/wht-Starter crank signal wire. Goes to the small terminal of the starter.
C10- yel- Temp sender
C11- lt grn- Map sensor
C12- no wire
C13- dk blu- throtle position sensor
C14- gry- signal to map and TPS. ( you will see it tied together in the harness)
C15- on wire
C16- orange- This wire is tied with B1 so it is a 12volt wire

D1- brn/wht- system ground goes to the engine.
D2- blk- tied to the wires for the engine ground.
D3- no wire
D4- wht- distrbutor plug
D5- tan/blk- distrbutor bypass. This is the wire that you disconnect to set your timing.
D6- Tan- O2 sensor ground to engine.
D7- purple- plugs in to the o2 sensor
D8- D13 no wire
D14- grn- Injector plug plugs into the top of injector
D15- no wire
D16- blue- Injector plug plugs into the other injector

Above you will find where I labeled all the pinouts for this computer. It will give you a good idea where all the wires go.

#1 Yes

#2 I tied all the grounds together and Put them on the back of the driverside head with a #8 wire. Then I grounded the motor on the firewall and the frame.

#3 A-6 is switched 12volts from Ignition relay. I also fused this with a 10 amp fuse.

#4 This is basically the same wire they are tied together with in the harness. I used a in line fuable link with a 15 amp fuse in it and ran it to the main Junction on the firewall.

#5 I tied this wire to the stock power wire for the hei dizzy. I did not fuse this.

#6 You can ground it but the computer will think that the truck will be in park at all times and idel high. I left it hanging untill I got a vss sensor from jags that run and installed it then. It will only turn the check engine light on. It might also make the truck die as you come to a stop. (but mine never did)

#7 Same side of the starter that the other sm wires that is on your starter that is there now. This just tells the cpu that the engine is cranking over and to turn the fuel pump relay on.

As for the 4 wire o2 sensor I have not done this but plan on to. I am sure R/F willl chime in and tell you what you need to know about that.

I hope this helps you out. Any more ?'s just ask we will get to you eventually.
Soory for the delay I have been busy.
Good luck, Jamie