What to do?? LS2 or Big Block for my project

[jkade]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

You got off cheap & you know it. Why? Because you've done it before. It's alot easier to shave costs when you know all the ins/outs of swapping a certain combo (which harness, which electronics; where to get cheap motors of good/reputable quality, etc....). Most of the general public (read members of this forum) can easily spend 3K when just doing a typical sbc.

I love ls1's. I love the power, reliability, & economy (if you can manage to keep your foot out of it ). So tell us: How did you swap in a LS motor for "about 3K"?

Spread the knowledge!

Well first thing you have to do is buy a motor, doesn't have to be a ls1 you can get a 4.8, 5.3, 6.0, or a 5.7. Places to find one, ebay, ls1tech, ls1.com, performancetrucks.net, ls1truck.com, craigslist, local buy sell paper, car-part.com,etc. You can find a 4.8 or 5.3 for as little as $400 to $600 bucks without a trans if you look on them sites and keep your eyes open. If you already have a good th350 or th400 you can use them also to save some green. The low down on what I did is like this. The 4.8 and 4l60e was had for $600 bucks, had the block bored to a 5.7 bore, bought used piston, rods, and crank, had the crank polished, bought a used cam, ported my own heads, bought used starter, bought used accessories, did my own harness, bought bolts, gaskets, and bearings that I could off ls1tech that people had bought and didn't use, bought used pushrods, keep in mind the used stuff had low mileage, bought the speedo and tach off ebay for about 1/2 cost used. Now don't go thinking that just becasue you are going to run EFI that you will have to change your gas tank, I am running the stock tank. I took the sending unit out, went to the parts store and bought me some 3/8 steel brake line and made my pickup out of that and got a pickup screen off the shelf at the parts store for it also. I them welded the pickup in the hole I drilled and bent it to fit. I used the blue EFI hoses from summit for my feed, walbro 255 inline pump from ebay that was $110 shipped, corvette filter/regulator that return through the stock pickup tube. Motors mounts: made my own adapter plates and I found the template off the conversions and hybrids on ls1.tech (do a search), I then used new stock style clam shell mounts and stands. For the trans crossmember I cut the factory one in the middle and stepped it down so the tailshaft sits right at the top of the crossmember. I also used the factory shifter, you may have to move it back a little but it is working in my truck. For the radiator I found a ls1 camaro radiator and fans and made them work with little effort on the radiator and the fans will plug right into a fbody harness. One the power steering pump just get a hose or use the old stock hose and then get a new style hoses and have them put together at a shop and that is done. I know I am forgetting some stuff.
You can make your factory guages work and if you use a th350 or 400 so will the speedo.
The conversion on the harness is not bad, go to wal-mart and spend $20 bucks on one of those lable makers and lable every wire you need and then cut out what you don't. Get you a couple of those painless 3 or 4 fuse blocks with the relays and use them to power the harness. You can buy the relays off ebay and get ten of them with the pigtails for like $20 shipped. Look here for info on wiring, fuel, motor mounts, etc
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312119

Check out this thread also.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=818862

Like I said on the gas tank, everyone says it needs to be baffled but I have had zero problems with mine.

There is a book we have at the shop that has all the torque specs, how to port a oil pump, tells about the motors, heads, etc anyone building or doing anything to one of these motors needs this book. GM Performance Parts "LS1 Engine Kit Installation Guide" this is very helpful.

I know mine may not look like a $6000 motor and install but it does the same thing if I would have spent the other $3000. If anyone needs any more info in specific just ask. This was my first install on one of these motors but I did have a little help from my dad who has done a few but I feel that I could have done it myself and it might have just took a little longer. As many of us that have done one on here there is no reason why some of you can't too becasue all of use will be willing to help answer questions.

[Wasted Income]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

You got off cheap & you know it. Why? Because you've done it before. It's alot easier to shave costs when you know all the ins/outs of swapping a certain combo (which harness, which electronics; where to get cheap motors of good/reputable quality, etc....). Most of the general public (read members of this forum) can easily spend 3K when just doing a typical sbc.

I love ls1's. I love the power, reliability, & economy (if you can manage to keep your foot out of it ). So tell us: How did you swap in a LS motor for "about 3K"?

Spread the knowledge!

I have a spreadsheet that details every penny I spent swapping my 5.3L and 4L60E into my '69. Never did it before, and guess what? It cost "about 3K".

[jkade]

Originally Posted by Wasted Income

I have a spreadsheet that details every penny I spent swapping my 5.3L and 4L60E into my '69. Never did it before, and guess what? It cost "about 3K".

See, I am not the only one. If I would have kept the 4.8 a 4.8 I would be around the high thousand to the low 2 thousand mark.

[Wasted Income]

Originally Posted by jkade

See, I am not the only one. If I would have kept the 4.8 a 4.8 I would be around the high thousand to the low 2 thousand mark.

That's the beauty of it...once you've swapped to a Gen III, and all the supporting systems are in place, it's a piece of cake to swap to an LS1, LS2, LS7, (LS9????????? )

[shifty]

Originally Posted by Ozona

This is a discussion between looks and dollars basically.

I respectfully disagree. This is a discussion between old/outdated/inefficient/technologically inadvanced power with a decent assortment of aftermarket parts and support that've been around forever versus new/innovative/efficient/technologically advanced power with a ton of aftermarket parts and support that have great cost-to-power ratio.

Originally Posted by Ozona

The LS motors basically all look the same. Pop your hood around any "hot rods" or late model guys - everyone has the same thing. Pop your hood with a BBC in it, and you'll be one of a few...at most.

You know what this tells me? It tells me that the few BBCs you'll find belong to people who are too stubborn to accept newer, better technology, or they want something period-correct in their vehicle.

I speculate that there are really only a few die-hard fans of the BBC left out there (when you consider the number of GenII, III And IV platform fans) and the rest of the people out there are openminded enough to recognize the benefits that the newer engine platforms have to offer. The benefits are simple: Less work and money to obtain an engine that is just as powerful, but 2-3x more efficient with gas mileage and engine life expectancy, which is hugely important these days.

Again - as someone mentioned earlier - GenIII offers you 400-500HP with easy low-buck bolt-ons and you can run that on pump gas, and not sink a fortune into it.

Originally Posted by Ozona

BBC + Carb = Fewer parts, simple operation, easy to tune (period), and parts are easy to find used/aftermarket/etc.

You can get more bang-for-your-buck parts much easier (and cheaper) for the GenIII engines, used or new. Period. Likewise, it would take me a weekend to properly tune a carb on a non-EFI engine...give me a GenIII and 2-3 hours with a laptop running LS1edit, and I believe I could figure out how to tune a GenIII engine without screwing around with set screws, timing lights and other archaic old tools.

Originally Posted by Ozona

The EFI project is going to be dramatically more complicated. Computer, Wiring harness, Engine controls, EFI fuel system, serpentine belts...Plain and simple...It's more parts. More parts = more money.

Most of the parts come with the engine if you buy it at any of the places mentioned in this thread, so there is no add'l cost involved. Tuning can either be done by you, or you can pay some places a one-time fee and they'll tune you up forever. But, unlike your carb'd BBC, constant tweaking and tuning isn't required. Unlike your BBC, the GenIII platform will automatically adjust within a range, something your BBC is not capable of. As any number of the swaps others have done (posts are linked in this thread) will show, you can make nearly everything you need to do the swap, too. Just get a higher flowing fuel pump - which is something you gotta buy with a BBC anyway, and you're pretty much good to go. You technically only need the same # of wires to make a GenIII platform run as you do a BBC or any other SBC.

Originally Posted by Ozona

If you want big power and anvil simplicity - go with the BBC.

That's the thing - simpler really *isn't* better...unless you've got a two digit IQ and can't understand how to do anything other than tweak screws here and there...or you're not resourceful enough to learn about how things work.

I agree, I loved the simplicity of my inline 6. LOVED IT. So much! You had water intake, gas intake, one belt to run everything, add spark and provide exhaust and you've got a running engine that would pull like a mule all day long. Hell, they're used as much as the BBC in modern racing, and there is a huge market for EFI products for the inline 6. But for me, running @ 6mpg and being fully wound at 4k RPM on the interstate with my little 3spd Muncie at 65mph...it sucked my ass! The swap to GenIII was a no-brainer. 4x the gas mileage, 10x the fun, parts cost 1/10th of the inline parts...

Originally Posted by Ozona

If you don't care about keeping it simple and the potentially much larger build expense/complication - the LS motors are neat.

The first part of that sentence is a HUGE misconception, and this gross exaggeration of complication is what kept guys like me away from these swaps for far too long.

GenIII and later swaps CAN easily be simple.
GenIII and later swaps CAN easily be cheaper.
There is a wealth of knowledge on the internet (right here at this forum, as a matter of fact" to learn and figure it out.

We all hafta learn something new, otherwise we become dinosaurs...just like the BBC. You can hold on tight to dinosaur technology, but with time that just makes you ... a dinosaur - EXTINCT.

Originally Posted by Ozona

And the comment above about "Big Blocks are a thing of the past in my book." that's silly. End of story.

Silly...seriously, I think you'll see the BBC take the same position as the inline 6 has in the next decade.

With the advent of newer 6.2L - 7.0L engines that are coming out from GM this year (like the LS9) that are producing 500HP+ (completely stock), it's making your BBC look like a a novelty more than a practical powerhouse.

[SCOTI]

So swapping to newer technology equals getting better than 20mpg's w/a factory-stock 300hp/346ci ls1/auto in a 67~72 truck? Just like that??

[shifty]

With stock 3.73's on a half-ton truck, I have never heard anyone claiming that they get less than 20mpg with a stock GenIII engine. Even if it was only 15mpg, that would still be 2.5x more efficient than my inline, which means spending $30 at the gas station instead of $80.

[Wasted Income]

I've been getting 15-18 mpg with 3.73s on my longbed fleet. However, I'm still tweaking my tune, and I can NEVER keep my foot out of it It's just so much fun

[extd56]

Originally Posted by shifty

With stock 3.73's on a half-ton truck, I have never heard anyone claiming that they get less than 20mpg with a stock GenIII engine. Even if it was only 15mpg, that would still be 2.5x more efficient than my inline, which means spending $30 at the gas station instead of $80.

I only get about 16 mpg with my 03 Avalanche so to get better mileage in a old truck is a good feat. I know most of my friends are only getting about 14-17 mpg too. When you are talking about the big blocks I think you are leaving out the TBi and vortech big blocks that seem to do pretty good too. My friend has a 98 CHevy 1 ton extended cab that he gets about 13 mpg towing or not. He has a 454 Vortech motor with a 4L80e trans and runs about 2200rpm's on the freeway.

[shifty]

Originally Posted by extd56

I only get about 16 mpg with my 03 Avalanche so to get better mileage in a old truck is a good feat.

With a re-program of the PCM that removes emissions, and physically removing all of the emissions crap on it, AND the lighter weight of these trucks versus that beast of an Avalanche (), it's possible - believe me.

My 2003 Sierra SLE extended cab (5.3L) got 19mpg on the highway and it weighed several hundred pounds more than my '68 stepside, and it was tuned for emissions control (not performance and gas mileage).

Think about it like this - You can use a Hypertech programmer on a Diesel engine to net 70HP-100HP and 15% fuel economy increase with the push of a button and a 3-5 minute software download. Same thing is possible when you have your GenIII retuned.

26mpg on the highway would be stretching it, although I've seen these numbers posted at LS1tech more than a few times with other cars that have roughly the same GVW as our trucks. 20-24 on the highway is totally reasonable number to attain.

[extd56]

I am putting a big block TBI motor in my 69 but with the crew cab and a longbed, plus being a 4 wheel drive with 35 or 38" tires and a 4 inch lift I need the big block to get it moving good. If I can get 15 out of it I will be happy. I will be runnign a 4L80e too with the big block. Maybe my next truck I will go with the gen 3 motor.

[nvrsatisfied]

sorry this may/may not pertain but just my .02

TXROOKIE, i am glad you posted this cause it has been on my mind , but i didn't want to start the great OLD vs NEW battle but i think over all i have learned alot from reading "Killer71 performed by 68 short step(one of the best and trajic stories of my time)", "jkade", and also "shifty" installs of there engines. i have learned a very important lesson long ago from not having a well planned project and thanks to these guys great build threads and all the other members on here, i feel safe about doing an LS swap, and i know i have an unlimited amount of knowledge at my finger tips when it comes to all the great guys on this site. i'm wanting to do the swap because of the challenge and to learn.

GOOD LUCK ON EITHER CHOICE AND PLAN, PLAN, PLAN.

to me its cool have new in old.......but i love a big block, blown, hanging outta the hood

[streetstar]

boy, this thread snowballed since the last time i looked at it !

I'm a big block fan --- but i will add that i'm a fan of "period-correct" engine platforms too. (i also like dinosaurs)

It would be difficult to build a 500 hp 454 for $3000 unless you already had a good core. The crate 454 and 502 HO's are the best deals and they are around 5 and 6k respectively.

A crate Gen 3 motor is also around 5 or 6k.

So cost is basically the same for a new motor (or you can save quite a bit by resurrecting a junkyard jewel in either case)

I understand the arguments both for and against the gen3 motors and i would like to try one out for a future project after reading some of the info ----- but the big block is not a museum piece, and for some people, a built big block topped with an 8-71 and twin 1050 Dom's is as good as it gets, and that probably won't change until the gen -3 gets widespread racing acceptance (even down at the local level)

That means in some circles , the big block is still a very viable engine and i can't see the LS-type engines replacing them for at least 10 years.

But, the reason the thread was started was to get opinions for one build, and with what the member wants to do with his project, the gen 3 sounds like the best choice for him

As far as big blocks being things of the past --- well, so is bed wood, 2 tone paint jobs and rallye wheels - but a lot of people like those things too. There are not that many people out there that are ready to put the big blocks in the same category as the Ford Flathead

[shifty]

Well put, streetstar.

[streetstar]

Originally Posted by shifty

Well put, streetstar.

thx Shifty -- reading some of your previous posts actually taught me a lot about gen - 3 swaps. With the price of these things coming down every year, i really want to try one in a future project myself. But its the 18 - 20 mpg i'm after.

I started my big block equipped truck this morning (very cold morning) and could smell all the unburned fuel because of the radical cam overlap and thought to myself "this is not a very fuel efficient way to go". I probably burned a gallon just warming it up

[usmcchevy]

Originally Posted by extd56

I only get about 16 mpg with my 03 Avalanche so to get better mileage in a old truck is a good feat.

Originally Posted by shifty

With a re-program of the PCM that removes emissions, and physically removing all of the emissions crap on it, AND the lighter weight of these trucks versus that beast of an Avalanche (), it's possible - believe me.

My 2003 Sierra SLE extended cab (5.3L) got 19mpg on the highway and it weighed several hundred pounds more than my '68 stepside, and it was tuned for emissions control (not performance and gas mileage).

Think about it like this - You can use a Hypertech programmer on a Diesel engine to net 70HP-100HP and 15% fuel economy increase with the push of a button and a 3-5 minute software download. Same thing is possible when you have your GenIII retuned.

26mpg on the highway would be stretching it, although I've seen these numbers posted at LS1tech more than a few times with other cars that have roughly the same GVW as our trucks. 20-24 on the highway is totally reasonable number to attain.

I completly agree with shifty, My 2000 silverado 5.3/4L60E ext. cab short box with K&N intake, catback exhaust, electric fans and a computer tune gets 21-22 mpg highway. Thats mostly at 80+ so if I kept my foot out of it I see no reason 24 isnt possible. The computer tune was by far the best thing I've done to the truck! Oh by the way, I'm planning a GENIII swap into a 67-72 truck when i get back from Iraq. Right now I'm just trying to decide between 4L80E an T56

[Wasted Income]

Originally Posted by usmcchevy

My 2000 silverado 5.3/4L60E ext. cab short box with K&N intake, catback exhaust, electric fans and a computer tune gets 21-22 mpg highway. Thats mostly at 80+

I'm sorry, no disrespect meant, but I find that VERY hard to believe.

I've tuned a LOT of 5.3L silverados, with similar mods (less the e-fan) and they all pick up maybe 2 mpg with a tune, but that puts them at 18-19 mpg at best.

How are you calculating your milage? Are your tires stock size? How about gears? If your speedo is off, your MPG calcs will be off.

**While writing this, I just realized that you might have a 2wd silverado. I guess with the reduced weight, and fewer parasitics of a front diff and t-case, another 1-3 mpg might be possible. All the trucks I've tuned have been 4x4s.**

Just wish I could squeak that out of my '69 with 5.3L. I've got e-fans, 3.73s, K&N intake, catback exhaust (still have cats...for now).

[Wasted Income]

Originally Posted by streetstar

thx Shifty -- reading some of your previous posts actually taught me a lot about gen - 3 swaps. With the price of these things coming down every year, i really want to try one in a future project myself. But its the 18 - 20 mpg i'm after.

I started my big block equipped truck this morning (very cold morning) and could smell all the unburned fuel because of the radical cam overlap and thought to myself "this is not a very fuel efficient way to go". I probably burned a gallon just warming it up

Plus it's hard to beat all the "race-bred" technology that comes on EVERY gen III bone stock.

-Roller cam
-Roller fulcrum rockers
-Beehive valve springs
-6 bolt (yes SIX bolt) mains
-Aluminum heads (that flow VERY well, btw, AND they're symmetrical port.....like a big block )
-Some have aluminum blocks
-Powdered metal con-rods
-I can spin my 5.3L to 6300 rpm no problem, and it's still pulling up there

Basically, the best of all GM engine technology for the past 53 years

[Hart_Rod]

SHIFTY, do you like FUEL INJECTION??? Tell us how you really feel.....!!!!! J/K I'm with you, fuel injection is the only thing I'll spend my money on......... I've had TBI, TPI, LT1 and am currently doing two 5.3/4L60E swaps. All my cars are daily drivers and so far EFI hasn't let me down, .

[Deuce]

Where is the best place ot buy a wiring harness for the LS motors???

[usmcchevy]

Originally Posted by Wasted Income

I'm sorry, no disrespect meant, but I find that VERY hard to believe.

I've tuned a LOT of 5.3L silverados, with similar mods (less the e-fan) and they all pick up maybe 2 mpg with a tune, but that puts them at 18-19 mpg at best.

How are you calculating your milage? Are your tires stock size? How about gears? If your speedo is off, your MPG calcs will be off.

**While writing this, I just realized that you might have a 2wd silverado. I guess with the reduced weight, and fewer parasitics of a front diff and t-case, another 1-3 mpg might be possible. All the trucks I've tuned have been 4x4s.**

Just wish I could squeak that out of my '69 with 5.3L. I've got e-fans, 3.73s, K&N intake, catback exhaust (still have cats...for now).

Yes, 2wd 3.42 rear. I also have a roll pan, soft tonneau and stock tires. EGR removed, stock cats still there. E-fans are off a LS1 firebird. Mileage calculated by miles/#gal.

[Wasted Income]

Originally Posted by usmcchevy

Yes, 2wd 3.42 rear. I also have a roll pan, soft tonneau and stock tires. EGR removed, stock cats still there. E-fans are off a LS1 firebird.

Ok, that's believable.

Originally Posted by usmcchevy

Mileage calculated by miles/#gal.

Lol! Thanks, but what I meant was that if your speedo was wrong (for tires, gears, etc) then your miles would be off in your miles/#gal calculation

[shifty]

Originally Posted by usmcchevy

Right now I'm just trying to decide between 4L80E an T56

4l80E: I would have finished the swap easily and casually after 2 months and be driving it.

T56: Have fun trying to figure out the hydraulics, hope you don't get frustrated easily, and prepare for the reality that you might blow your slave cylinder if you don't have the right pedal travel, ad there are a bajillion other considerations like what MC to use, what bore and stroke the MC should have, where (high/low and left/right) to punch your hole in the firewall so the MC rod lines up good with your pedal, fabbing up bracketry to mount the pushrod to the pedal and ...

Sure, the T56 will be a lot more fun for joyriding, but ... that fun doesn't come without the potentially hellish price of installation.

Just 2¢ from personal experience. I'm not the best with fab work. I finally got my hydraulics 90% situated, but I still gotta drop the tranny in order to swap out the slave cylinder fitting to something that *isn't* the stock quick connect just to plumb the damn thing out.

some other guys here have figured out some creative setups, but I still have yet to see anything I thought looked "clean" and functional except one ... an I still can't figure out how he did it, really, and I don't think it would work with my header choice anyway, and ... where again - it requires fab work and welding crap to pedals and ... meh I want bolt-in!

[shifty]

Originally Posted by Deuce

Where is the best place ot buy a wiring harness for the LS motors???

www.speartech.com

hands down, the absolute best, hassle-free, most plug-and-play, pre-tested-on-a-real-engine-before-shipping-to-you harness that there is on the market. if you want a simple hack job and good tune for cheap that will leave you with half the legwork to figure out on your own then contact 'wait4me performance' is OK, but don't expect nice manners and good service, or any communication (per my experience). for an job/setup in-between, call up Russell at www.currentperformance.com and talk to the guys there about their harnesses, i've heard a lot of good feedback about them, much better than my experience at wait4me, and they also sell replacement fuse box kits as well which are geared towards the DIY-hacker. all i hear elsewhere is "don't bother with Painless wiring, not worth it".

and mind you that Speartech doesn't come without a price ($750), but it's like ... seriously - think about this - do you want to spend 3-4 days focusing on hacking your harness, figuring out what the hell you need relays for, what power goes in where, what amperage of fuses to put on the wires.....and a thousand other things .... or do you want to answer the delivery guy at the door, open the box, spend 5 minutes hooking the harness to your engine, maybe another 30 minutes reading the add'l instructions, then turn the key over and start it up, guaranteed not to have any gremlins, and phone support if you have problems?

i guess that's the point i've tried to drill in - this *CAN* be a plug and play swap with no technical knowledge needed. it *WILL* cost you some more bucks, but for regular guys like most of us here at the forum, that's what we want - an easy, no-brainer swap! more power in a short period from a little cash, and within a year of semi-regular driving, you'll recoup your expense in gas savings alone.

.....

ECE mounts
Speartech harness (and a PCM reprogram is always good)
rear tank and pump
stock 3-core radiator
plumb out gas and radiator hoses, battery lines
wire it up and fire it up!
haul some ass!

[Wasted Income]

Originally Posted by shifty

www.speartech.com

hands down, the absolute best, hassle-free, most plug-and-play, pre-tested-on-a-real-engine-before-shipping-to-you harness that there is on the market.

x2 for Speartech. Great customer service, fast turnaround, QUALITY product.