CPP notch problems with quality...round 2

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by LONGHAIR

There are 3 problems with this statement.
First of all they are not the same. A 3/4 ton frame is heavier gauge metal to begin with.....and second, 3/4 ton trucks all have 8' beds (or longer).
Third, is not about power to pull. You have to control that weight. That means stopping it and steering it too. A trailer with a 1000# tongue weight probably has a gross weight of at least 6000#. That is what 50% more than the truck itself? Not my idea of safe with a 6' bed truck.

You are not the only person on the road.....



It's not that bad. You don't need to do the whole frame. A foot or so on each side of the c-notch would be plenty.

I guess Im wrong. I have read many threads here on the forum that said the 3/4 ton trucks ahd the same frame with some added corner bracing between the crossmembers and the frame.

Stopping a 6000lb trailer is no big deal...trailers have brakes. My old trailer would slow down the truck faster than the truck brakes would. People tow way more than 150% of their trucks weight. Heck, my buddy had his Dodge dually over 40,000gcvwr with a 8500lb dually. Never had a problem.

Originally Posted by pharmd

So, who's C notch kit is the best (or at least adequate) then if this one is suspect...I want to learn...sure don't want to go thru all the stuff that you have had to on this deal...

If I were to do this all over again, I would have spent the extra money on the Porterbuilt notch. It cost more, but really I could have supported Nate at a small shop, and had a much higher quality product.

If you have a welder and you are confident in welding teh inside seams, get the CPP notch. It was $102 shipped to my door off ebay.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by 8mpg

Heck, my buddy had his Dodge dually over 40,000gcvwr with a 8500lb dually. Never had a problem.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should....

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Josh

Just because you can doesn't mean you should....

As previously mentioned, 8mpg would use his 06 Dodge 2500 Megacab Cummins for the HEAVY loads. He just wants to be able to use his lowered short wheel base truck as a truck.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

As previously mentioned, 8mpg would use his 06 Dodge 2500 Megacab Cummins for the HEAVY loads. He just wants to be able to use his lowered short wheel base truck as a truck.

I was mentioning his friend towing 40k lbs with a 3500 truck. Yes the truck would do it, but i'm pretty sure somewhere something was overloaded and laws were broken.

I personally wouldn't tow 1k lb tongue weight 6k lb trailer as 8mpg stated with a lowered c notched short wheel base truck. If you have a 3/4ton diesel truck I don't see why you would even want to risk towing 6k lbs with of a modified shortbed... Our YukonXL is rated to tow just shy of 8k lbs and I have towed near the GCVRW with it. It did it safely but it was compromised in its ability to stop and accelerate to the point I didn't feel comfortable towing like that. I tow a lot with my car trailer and my camper and no longer use the half tons sitting here to tow with when I have a much more capable and safer truck to do so with. Yeah it might not be as cool as a cummins powered nv4500 equipped lowered shortbed on bags but it sure is a lot safer.

[Shane]

the porterbuilt unit and the cpp unit are two totally different things.

just to be fair.

[8mpg]

You are correct..the Porterbuilt will be fully welded and much stronger with a top cap on the frame rail to finish out the "C" on the frame.

For PharmD...here is a link to their vendor section.
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=366945

Pic of theirs:

[basemodel67]

I dunno, I think if you're that worried and want to tow a trailer that big, maybe you should have left the thing stock. And like Longhair mentioned, the notch might be the least of your worries if you plan on towing with a shortbed... panic stops or sudden lane changes with a heavy trailer and short wheel base = bad day. Even if you have the power to pull it, there's a lot more to it than that. I don't want to be negative, especially to someone who likes truck like I do, but you need to make sure ALL your bases are covered.

[panhandler62]

I don't know how to express this correctly but --- the biggest problem with towing heavy loads with a short wheel base vehicle is not neccesarily a lack of strength or power but stability. The trailer exerts yaw force on the hitch. This is why heavy haulers have long wheel bases or use a 5th wheel mount that puts the site of this force closer to the center of mass of the tow vehicle.

I do not know if a Mustang on a flatbed is too much for a shortbed truck or not (I'm not that kind of engineer!) but I thought I should bring up this point. I'm not saying you are wrong to try it ... I'm just no expert on the issue. I'm only saying that there are concerns to keep in mind that the strength of the frame and thrust of the engine won't solve.

On the plus side; I don't think you'll have an issue with frame strength with the repair you did to the notch plate.

[Dieselwrencher]

Wow, people actually think these newer 1/2 ton vehicles compare to an old 1/2 ton when it comes to hauling? Seriously? Does anyone actually work on these newer ones or actually try to use them? 8mpg, sorry about your bad part. Nice fix. Good luck on the rest.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

Wow, people actually think these newer 1/2 ton vehicles compare to an old 1/2 ton when it comes to hauling? Seriously? Does anyone actually work on these newer ones or actually try to use them? 8mpg, sorry about your bad part. Nice fix. Good luck on the rest.

Thanks man...I need to get my butt out there and work on the truck and stop playin on the internet. Hope to have some updates pretty soon. I need to make fuel lines and brake lines for the chassis and the body goes on.

Any thoughts on using a fuel cell with diesel? Im worried since it doesnt have baffles that its goign to foam up.

[Dieselwrencher]

Originally Posted by 8mpg

Any thoughts on using a fuel cell with diesel? Im worried since it doesnt have baffles that its goign to foam up.

I have a 16gal cell in the vette and the only problems I have is when it is at about a 1/4 tank, the fuel will slosh and I can hear my fuel pumps cavitate. However, I am thinking of adding new foam to it if I can make sure the foam won't block my feed ports. I know other guys who run foam blocks in theirs without any problem. Other than that, no real problems that I know of, other than it is kind of a PITA to fill mine.

[Shane]

why did they triple the price of their pinion shims?

[dznucks]

I was told by a sale's rep (before Jeff came along) that they changed vendors, changed materials, and where now stamping the the CPP logo on them. The rep went on to say their cost was twenty-something dollars and so they were selling them for $69. They still had not updated their catalogs or website to reflect the price/product change.

I threw my CPP catalog away after that phone conversation. I had already purchased my c-notch's, drop blocks, and front shock brackets from them.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by dznucks

I was told by a sale's rep (before Jeff came along) that they changed vendors, changed materials, and where now stamping the the CPP logo on them. The rep went on to say their cost was twenty-something dollars and so they were selling them for $69. They still had not updated their catalogs or website to reflect the price/product change.

I threw my CPP catalog away after that phone conversation. I had already purchased my c-notch's, drop blocks, and front shock brackets from them.

Thats interesting. I paid $85+ shipping on ebay... $102 to the door. CPPJeff said he could do $90 as our discount price + shipping. Mine didnt have a stamping.

Talked with Nate at Porterbuilt and he said there will be a new notch design coming from them. After talking to him, it sounds VERY stout and will be much better than the CPP unit. Sounds like it is worth the extra money. I might sell my frame and start with the other one I have just so I can use his notch.

LOL.. I thought you were talking about the notch..not the pinion shims.

[dv8customs]

Don't forget to have your engineering buddies run some numbers on Nate's notch too to make sure it meets your needs....

[dv8customs]

It is important to remember that Jeff is a sales guy. Who knows how long he has been there, maybe he hasn't heard of a failure. Obviously all you have to go on is what they tell you but I am not sure that the engineer told him it could not be welded from the inside. It is likely that either he did not convey your question properly to the engineer or that he did not properly relay the engineers response. I say all this because I am an engineer and work with my companies sales guys every day and they do not always do the best job of accurately communicating information. I wouldn't expect them to provide you any sort of analysis but they should be able to say within a reasonable amount how there part affects the structural integrity of the frame.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by dv8customs

It is important to remember that Jeff is a sales guy. Who knows how long he has been there, maybe he hasn't heard of a failure. Obviously all you have to go on is what they tell you but I am not sure that the engineer told him it could not be welded from the inside. It is likely that either he did not convey your question properly to the engineer or that he did not properly relay the engineers response. I say all this because I am an engineer and work with my companies sales guys every day and they do not always do the best job of accurately communicating information. I wouldn't expect them to provide you any sort of analysis but they should be able to say within a reasonable amount how there part affects the structural integrity of the frame.

Thanks for the reply.. I completely agree with you that the message could have been translated incorrectly, but doubt that it is due to the simplicity of the question. Can the inside seams be welded....

Now Im not trying to drag him in here, but he has yet to try and respond to this much less correct his misstatements. His statement was actually along the lines of there has NEVER been a single failure in 15 years. Has he been there that long or is it simply hearsay? I gave him the benefit of the doubt and took it has he has never heard of one. I honestly dont think CPP cares what I have to say...Im just the guy who bought a single item from them. The "say" on the reasonable amount of structural integrity was

Originally Posted by CPPJeff

Although i can see you might have some concern i am telling you it fine go ahead and install it. There are kits on the market where people have copied our notch aand they dont even fit the frame and that kind of stuff would concern me but this notch is a nice fit and will not let you down. Hope this helps kinda release those jitters and continue the install.

and to top it off...other companies prodcuts are worse

Originally Posted by CPPJeff

Ok so here is the skinny, YOU CANNOT WELD THE INSIDE OF THE NOTCH. My Engineer said that some vendors make them in 3/16" plate and he has seen an issue with those breaking but we make our kits in 1/4" plate and WE HAVE NEVER had an issue with our kits in 15 years, if there was a reason to weld the inside we would most certainly do that.

The other thread is located here to see all of CPPJeff's replies about their product.
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=402358

[dv8customs]

That threaded you mentioned above showed the stock frame had a minimum Safety Factor of 1.3774 and the notched frame had a Safety Factor of .79139. That is a decrease of only 43% not 75% as stated. The notched and boxed frame shows a minimum Safety Factor of 1.022 which is a decrease of 26% from stock.

As you can see these numbers still show a decrease in strength which is why aftermarket units, such as CPP's are not simply weld in pieces of pipe. They are 1/4" thick sheets of steel that wrap around the frame to make up for the strength that has been lost due to the notch being cut out.

[Dieselwrencher]

Now let me ask you this............. if the boxed notch is still weaker than a factory frame, could a guy add 2 gussets that were adjacent from the center out of the notch and welded in and make this area stronger?

[8mpg]

Adding gussets will help the strength I believe. Now Im still tryin go see where you are trying to put them.

Now the fun part is that is where Im running my fuel and brake line

[Dieselwrencher]

Originally Posted by 8mpg

Adding gussets will help the strength I believe. Now Im still tryin go see where you are trying to put them.

Now the fun part is that is where Im running my fuel and brake line

I was thinking of putting a gusset at about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the frame on the tube notch and have that gusset go from top to bottom and inside to outside. Then duplicate this to the other side of the notch. I'd think it would be plenty strong.

Put the brake lines and fuel lines on the outside of the inside of the newly boxed portion.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

I was thinking of putting a gusset at about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the frame on the tube notch and have that gusset go from top to bottom and inside to outside. Then duplicate this to the other side of the notch. I'd think it would be plenty strong.

Put the brake lines and fuel lines on the outside of the inside of the newly boxed portion.

That would help..not sure if that is the ultimate place for the guesset....but again, Im not sure. Its better than nothing. The thign that has stopped me from welding it in is I might go with a step notch later.

Hell, honestly I would be better off just building a whole damn frame from scratch. But that is another story and another build.

[Dieselwrencher]

I hear you there. I have been in your shoes and figured out it was just better off for me to build a complete new chassis and new car and just leave my one I have alone for now. Because once you start changing things, it will effect a lot of other things and I figured I'd be money and time ahead to build a new one. it will be nicer and more light weight with any luck.

[CPPJEFF]

Guys i appologize for getting to this topic AGAIN late. I am just a salesguy 100% true but i would never steer you guys in the wrong direction. if there was an issue with the integrity of a part i would not sell it to you. I have literally sold 1000's of these kits and never had one come back cracked or anything like that. Seriously there is no issue with the part if you want to weld the inside up after you install it feel free to do that, at this point CPP has no intentions of re-inventing the wheel on something that has worked for years with a tremendous amount of success. I will try to get the engineer to join in on this topic but truthfully there is no topic to talk about. Again i thought i was clear the first time but my appologies we are reliving this. Actually the concerns are well taken but there is not an issue.

[dv8customs]

Jeff, do you guys have any numbers on how this affects towing? Would you say that your towing capacity would remain the same as stock with this kit or would there be some negative impact? That seems to be his main concern here...