Vin removal

[67c10rustbuket]

DURG- I love that 62 Impala in your avatar, can I have it My favorite vehicle ever!

[jp9124]

I have built a few CJ jeeps, bought a few jeep body's and frames out of state. I have never found the vin stamped on a frame, (not saying its not on there somewhere) you can buy complete new frames now along with new tubs to replace the ones that have completely rusted away. The only thing that has ever mattered to my local DMV is the original steel plate on the firewall that can be separated from the old body's and the legal title to that vin# that I hold, placed back on the firewall (it also acts as a nice template for cutting holes on new fiberglass body's). It is the only thing they ever check, when they are looking for a vin for inspection and I usually point them to it. These inspections, when necessary, used to be done by the highway patrol, more recently it has been regular DMV employees. This is in the state of Ohio, I can not comment on other states as I have never registered a vehicle anywhere else.

My opinion is that when dealing with classic cars that you may be completely restoring, is that there is a VIN# stamped on it somewhere and a legal title to that VIN#. If that piece of the vehicle is original, you hold the title to it, and the rest of the vehicle has been refurbished around it, it is still the same vehicle that you have the title for. If a VIN# is on the frame, I would graft that piece onto the vehicle as well, etc, etc.

[leddzepp]

Originally Posted by jp9124

I have built a few CJ jeeps, bought a few jeep body's and frames out of state. I have never found the vin stamped on a frame, (not saying its not on there somewhere) you can buy complete new frames now along with new tubs to replace the ones that have completely rusted away. The only thing that has ever mattered to my local DMV is the original steel plate on the firewall that can be separated from the old body's and the legal title to that vin# that I hold, placed back on the firewall (it also acts as a nice template for cutting holes on new fiberglass body's). It is the only thing they ever check, when they are looking for a vin for inspection and I usually point them to it. These inspections, when necessary, used to be done by the highway patrol, more recently it has been regular DMV employees. This is in the state of Ohio, I can not comment on other states as I have never registered a vehicle anywhere else.

Wow. You are correct. I thought I was the only one that figured this out . I have built my share of Jeep CJ's as well and have NEVER found a VIN stamped into the frames. The local DMV could not find VIN's on any of the ones I have had to have verified, so they sent me to the CHP. So, I had to have the California Highway Patrol verify the VIN's on a couple out-of-state CJ-5's I bought. After an hour of searching...they gave up. They went by the steel plate on the firewall alone in both instances.

4WDHardware is located in Ohio, as well as another company that manufactures steel tubs (I am sure you know this ) I bought a LOT of parts from them when I was into Jeeps.

[jp9124]

Originally Posted by leddzepp

4WDHardware is located in Ohio, as well as another company that manufactures steel tubs (I am sure you know this ) I bought a LOT of parts from them when I was into Jeeps.

My first vehicle, a 1976 CJ5, complete frame up restoration done with my father, when I was 15 years old gets driven at least once a week. I have owned it for 20 years. It has a fiberglass tub and one piece front end from 4WD hardware and it is still going strong with no major issues. It is titled as such with that original steel plate attached. The only thing left original is that plate, the frame, rear axle, and steering column

It was originally my grandfathers, sold to my father, given to me, I hope it lasts another 11 years so my son can drive it down the road.

[jhaymon]

the definition of illegal in this case would be an absolute NO,if the correct paperwork is filled so it's not an absolute NO. therefore it's not illegal.
in fact you can get the factory rivets, a new vin plate, and dash sticker if you know how to do the paperwork and the correct people to talk to.it's allot of legal stuff and allot of research to do so it's easyer to pay someone to do the work. theres a guy out here who does legal title work and knows how to go about getting factory replacements so i willing to bet that most of you guys have a title person in your area as well.
when it comes to legal matters, the yellow pages are more useful than anything on the net.

[PAWS 72]

What about the little blue sticker on the passenger door when you paint it?

In Alabama,When you buy one from out of state you have to carry it down and let them look at vin numbers to see if they match. for the tag.They have yet to look for frame numbers that I know of or heard.I know all states are different.
Unless it is rebuilt then all they look at is the repair work and vin number and issue a new vin.When a vehicle is over 25 years old we can put vintage tags on IF it is not a daily driver.So you dont have to carry it to the court house every year.that one tag and thats it.

[jhaymon]

i've been looking into to doing title work on the side. in tx it depends on what county your registering it in. lost titles, builders, and searches are still pretty easy in this county, but just one county over up in harris i heard its easier to smash a brick into your head. as soon as i understand how it works, im going to post an article.

[cheyenne shortstep]

The OP is in California, in California if the VIN has been tampered with and or removed you will be issued an assigned VIN plate that the CHP attaches to your vehicle. It will be attached where the CHP decides and may not be in the stock location nor does it look anything like the original VIN plate. In my opinion it also devalues the vehicle and can cause confusion of year/make/model. If you get caught tampering with a VIN in California you may be charged and the vehicle will most likely be impounded. This is not something you want to deal with, if you decide to do this behind closed doors keep it to yourself and make certain it is done correctly. I have heard horror stories about this, a friend of mine was put in handcuffs and hauled off to jail from the DMV over a Pinto he bought for his daughter that had an altered VIN. The state of California takes this very serious.

[justahoby]

Originally Posted by leddzepp

No, it is illegal. I know people do it all the time...but it is still illegal. If it were legal, why is the plate affixed with special rosette rivets?

WRONG..... depends on which state, and it is by Fedral law "Intent" to commit fraud. 5 years ago in Florida i put together a truck asked local law enforcement the deal in Florida. they said if it is not stolen put the new plate on the cab.... A week later after i riveted my plate to new cab, my registration was goofed, explained it to the inspecting officer who said he didn't care as long as it matched the frame. 50 states all different. YET still follow the federal law which is 5 confusing pages long (yes I read it) in 50 different ways. California will haul you out in cuffs , and scare people, but untill you read the letter of the Federal Law it can be diced and slice for or against you.
Wisely if there is no stolen property, it should be left alone BY FEDERAL LAW. Sadly if a cop decides, and if by chance, i will never drive what i care about into cali

[justahoby]

Originally Posted by jhaymon

the definition of illegal in this case would be an absolute NO,if the correct paperwork is filled so it's not an absolute NO. therefore it's not illegal.
in fact you can get the factory rivets, a new vin plate, and dash sticker if you know how to do the paperwork and the correct people to talk to.it's allot of legal stuff and allot of research to do so it's easyer to pay someone to do the work. theres a guy out here who does legal title work and knows how to go about getting factory replacements so i willing to bet that most of you guys have a title person in your area as well.
when it comes to legal matters, the yellow pages are more useful than anything on the net.

x2..... just california thinks everyone thats driving like me 69 peiced together cab of with 68, on 68 frame with my other truck parts is a chop shop while the real crooks are sending half cars to south america in a cargo container.Yet the rossete rivette is a felony to own in michigan, but allowed to be bought in California "if used for restoration or not fraudulently". Problem is you cant have a vin tag in your hand to use the damn thing in their state. I would be **** out truck if i moved to california

[justahoby]

18 USCS § 2321

TITLE 18. CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I. CRIMES
CHAPTER 113. STOLEN PROPERTY

18 USCS § 2321 (2003)

§ 2321. Trafficking in certain motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts

(a) Whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

107 A.L.R.5th 567

SUMMARY: Illegally removing or altering a vehicle identification number (VIN) or selling or possessing a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN constitutes a crime in most states. In order to impose liability, state courts normally require a culpable mental state on the part of the defendant in altering or removing a VIN or in possessing a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN. Some states, however, do not require any culpable mental state on the part of the defendant when selling a vehicle or vehicle part with a removed or altered VIN.

For example, in State v. Smith, 972 S.W.2d 476, 107 A.L.R.5th 791 (Mo. Ct. App. W.D. 1998), the defendant sold a vehicle that was subsequently found to have an altered VIN. The defendant claimed the state was required to establish that he had knowledge of the VIN alteration at the time the sale occurred. The court held that while knowledge was required for possessing a vehicle with an altered VIN, the statute's plain language indicated that knowledge was not required when selling a vehicle with an altered VIN.

Most state courts held that knowledge of the altered or removed VIN is required before the defendant can be convicted of altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN ( § 10[a] ). However, a few courts have concluded that from a plain reading of the applicable statute, knowledge of the altered or removed VIN is not required when altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN ( § 10 ). Courts singled out a number of particular circumstances as tending to establish knowledge of an altered or removed VIN on the part of the defendant. For instance, knowledge was found to exist where there is physical evidence of the VIN alteration as well as proof the defendant tried to sell the vehicle or had possession of the vehicle for a long period of time ( § 10[c] ). Knowledge was also proved by evidence that the defendant was warned of a missing or altered VIN and did not correct the defect or where the police found evidence of a "chop shop" and other dismantled vehicle parts in the defendant's possession ( § 10[c] ). To the contrary, courts found the defendant did not have knowledge of an altered or removed VIN where, although there was evidence of possession or sale of the vehicle, there was no direct or physical evidence the defendant altered or removed the VIN ( § 10[d] ). Knowledge was also not proved where the defendant merely leased a building to a person operating a "chop shop" and did not know what was happening inside the building ( § 10[d] ).

Along with the culpable mental state requirement, courts also addressed the criminal conduct involved in altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN. For example, state courts found that a VIN was altered or removed even if the concealed VIN was not removed or the vehicle bore an additional VIN not affixed by the manufacturer ( § 12[a] ).

Now thats part of Federal Law..1st page, 2nd page says that repairs to body and cab allowed

[leddzepp]

Originally Posted by justahoby

Problem is you cant have a vin tag in your hand to use the damn thing in their state.

Exactly. Therefore, I am not WRONG.

[turp mcspray]

If you look up federal statute 18usc511, it clearly states that it is allowed, when repairing a vehicle, "if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair" That line is a direct quote from the Federal Statute. The law is there to STOP CRIMINALS. If you own both cabs, and nothing is stolen, replacing the cab is just like replacing a rusty box. It is a "repair part".

[justahoby]

Originally Posted by turp mcspray

If you look up federal statute 18usc511, it clearly states that it is allowed, when repairing a vehicle, "if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair" That line is a direct quote from the Federal Statute. The law is there to STOP CRIMINALS. If you own both cabs, and nothing is stolen, replacing the cab is just like replacing a rusty box. It is a "repair part".

yes..... again

[justahoby]

Originally Posted by leddzepp

Exactly. Therefore, I am not WRONG.

Well how come you can legally buy the rivits in Cali??? Its how its interpreted.
Here is the whole Federal law in print including 18 USC 511

http://www.gpo.gov:80/fdsys/pkg/USCO...p25-sec511.pdf

I have heard all the scare stories

[justahoby]

Originally Posted by turp mcspray

If you look up federal statute 18usc511, it clearly states that it is allowed, when repairing a vehicle, "if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair" That line is a direct quote from the Federal Statute. The law is there to STOP CRIMINALS. If you own both cabs, and nothing is stolen, replacing the cab is just like replacing a rusty box. It is a "repair part".

x2 x2 x2... It is intent to commit fraud... Now I am not going to prison to take a stack of paperwork to a courthouse to drive a 67, 68 ,69 ,70 ,71 truck am I ????

How do half these California outcomes come out with a good lawyer? I wonder. Laws are inturpeted more than you will ever know, just like the guy who got charged for asault for farting in a public place near a cop in Chicago

[jocko]

seems we're discussing texas apples vs california oranges. Yes it's illegal if you don't do it right. Doing it "right" in CA = you will NOT have the original VIN tag re-installed, just as Cheyenne Shortstep mentioned above. That's the real issue - you can do a lot of homework and go through the state police and all that jazz, legally, and in the end, you will have a NEW VIN number, one that I guarantee you will not like, because it is undecipherable and will kill your truck value. (EDIT: But, it WILL match what is on your new title when it's all said and done - this is how it is proven to be "legal" by a seller) It's just not worth bothering with it in CA.

If I restore a truck, even a "very nice" resto, there are two things I don't remove - the SPID and ANYthing riveted to the body with ID info. I'm not sure desiring to paint a cab qualifies as a required repair anyway, but legal vs. illegal is not really the issue here. To do what the OP asked is illegal. Is there a long route to doing it legally? Yes, but in Cali, the result sucks - a weird new VIN.

I almost bought a 55.1 and for the life of me I couldn't figure out the VIN. The seller finally came clean and then it all made sense. he didn't do anything wrong, he legally got a new VIN tag - but it is just a random number, has nothing to do with year, make, gvwr of a truck - just a random number that will make buyers run. I did. And I did my homework in that case, and didn't like what I found, even though it was legal.

TX I'm sure is different. Used to live there, LOVED it becuase it still has some common sense, and slow drivers actually pull over, and people always pull to the side for a funeral. So I have no doubt it's easier in TX to remove and reinstall a VIN tag legally. But the poor dude OP is a CA res, just like me now. Yay.

[justahoby]

Originally Posted by jocko

seems we're discussing texas apples vs california oranges. Yes it's illegal if you don't do it right. Doing it "right" in CA = you will NOT have the original VIN tag re-installed, just as Cheyenne Shortstep mentioned above. That's the real issue - you can do a lot of homework and go through the state police and all that jazz, legally, and in the end, you will have a NEW VIN number, one that I guarantee you will not like, because it is undecipherable and will kill your truck value. (EDIT: But, it WILL match what is on your new title when it's all said and done - this is how it is proven to be "legal" by a seller) It's just not worth bothering with it in CA.

If I restore a truck, even a "very nice" resto, there are two things I don't remove - the SPID and ANYthing riveted to the body with ID info. I'm not sure desiring to paint a cab qualifies as a required repair anyway, but legal vs. illegal is not really the issue here. To do what the OP asked is illegal. Is there a long route to doing it legally? Yes, but in Cali, the result sucks - a weird new VIN.

I almost bought a 55.1 and for the life of me I couldn't figure out the VIN. The seller finally came clean and then it all made sense. he didn't do anything wrong, he legally got a new VIN tag - but it is just a random number, has nothing to do with year, make, gvwr of a truck - just a random number that will make buyers run. I did. And I did my homework in that case, and didn't like what I found, even though it was legal.
My only response was not to california Law as I have looked into my vehicles if I was to move back out west with my family .But to say blanketly its Federal law.
You can get a crime unit here to look at a vehicle and issue a new vin if looks messed up, then take the title there. I

TX I'm sure is different. Used to live there, LOVED it becuase it still has some common sense, and slow drivers actually pull over, and people always pull to the side for a funeral. So I have no doubt it's easier in TX to remove and reinstall a VIN tag legally. But the poor dude OP is a CA res, just like me now. Yay.

NO I AM TALKING FEDERAL LAW. And California your allowed to posses rosette rivets if not used fraudulently. (Separate Law on the rosette rivet). Never said anything about Texas although in Texas its a serious misdemeanor, unless its for your own use not to sell, and still a Felony if you commit fraud. Michigan its a felony to make or own a rosette rivet. My only response was not to california Law (and I have looked into my vehicles if I was to move back out west with my family, I am aware on all levels it sucks) .But to say blanketly its Federal law was wrong. Now if the OP does it way it should be we would never know

[justahoby]

Originally Posted by leddzepp

It is illegal under federal law to remove a vin plate.

This is what I was responding to to be clear... Not stating Texas Law... But Federal...

Illegal on a State level most states have to prove stolen property to even look at it or even care to think about handcuffs.

All links and quotes are Federal law. Now that being said I don't want the OP to do anything to incriminate himself.

[jocko]

Okedoke. Just telling you what I have seen occur in CA, with my own eyes, in the exact scenario that the OP asked about. Could it happen another way? IS there a way he could retain his original VIN, maybe, but he asked so I'm relaying my experience. Yes, Federal Law pertains to the criminal aspect of any intent to commit fraud, which isn't the case here, so, what is left is how states choose to implement their own vehicle laws, i.e. however they want, Title umptifratz really is irrelevant unless commiting fraud, the federal piece - OP wants to restore his truck - In CA, if he went to the chippies, which is what dmv would tell him to do, he could very likely be issued a new VIN if he removed it. Then he'd probably be a little ticked off if he listened to all the above adivce saying go for it... I'm not saying DON'T go for it, I'm relaying the way I've seen it handled and he might not like it to turn out that way, that's all. Just sharing. Mr. Law would verify all kosher, but then perhaps issue a new number/title. Is there a longer long way to retain your original VIN, there might be, but I've not seen it happen. I don't like it either, but that's what they do out here in the land of milk n honey. Possessing rosette rivets and using them to install a vin are two different things. Owning shotgun shells is legal until ya shoot someone.

Anyway, clearly I'm no lawyer - and not claiming to be an expert on this stuff - but I did think it was worth relaying to the guy that asked the question who lives in CA how I've seen it done in the past on more than one occasion.

To the poster's original question, I would not recommend removing the rivets. Others may disagree, and that's fine. The different opinions will help him decide.

Good topic and good discussion - has come up so many times on here, and in the end, the other 49 states always seem to end up being glad they don't live here. But then again, we can drive 12 months out of the year and never rust, so it's not all bad...

[jocko]

Originally Posted by justahoby

This is what I was responding to to be clear... Not stating Texas Law... But Federal...

Illegal on a State level most states have to prove stolen property to even look at it or even care to think about handcuffs.

All links and quotes are Federal law. Now that being said I don't want the OP to do anything to incriminate himself.

Doh! Thought you were responding to my post since it was quoted. Anyhoo, it's all good!

[Liz]

Originally Posted by jhaymon

the definition of illegal in this case would be an absolute NO,if the correct paperwork is filled so it's not an absolute NO. therefore it's not illegal.
in fact you can get the factory rivets, a new vin plate, and dash sticker if you know how to do the paperwork and the correct people to talk to.it's allot of legal stuff and allot of research to do so it's easyer to pay someone to do the work. theres a guy out here who does legal title work and knows how to go about getting factory replacements so i willing to bet that most of you guys have a title person in your area as well.
when it comes to legal matters, the yellow pages are more useful than anything on the net.

If you cut the vin off, its illegal. If you go through the proper channels, it is not.. therefor it is indeed illegal, unless you do it legally.

[jocko]

NOW it makes sense.

[jhaymon]

i should really stop drinking when im typing. but seriously i think faster than i type and it's not like im doing this for college credit.

the definition of illegal, in this case, would be an absolute NO. if the correct paperwork is filled it's not an absolute NO. therefore it's not illegal. fixed


very interesting on the written law. i haven't gotten that far in my books for title work. this would make a great article if all the states would participate.

[Iron Hauler]

I was just going to swap vin tags onto my new cab, guess I better brush up on Iowa law before doing anything.
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