Help me build a Raptor killer

[C. M. Wolf]

Please, please.. let me know if you can find a real "Crated 427 RAT" engine,(or ANY real crated GM-RAT,(Research and Technology Div.), engine, if you do find a RAT engine, you'll have more $ in the engine alone than the whole truck put together)!
Those things were snatched up by every hot-rod'er & racer that owned a Chevy or GMC as fast as the news of a person selling one came out.

...

Screw the Raptor, build it to take on Vets for pinks...

Hunt down a small block, 4bolt main engine,(that hasn't been rebuilt to death... new is always good.), 350, 327, etc.. (HD50 oil pump, & AC-Delco HD water pump.) {you might wanna start this all off on a 3/16" GM cassis/frame instead of the basic 1/8", so there's less flex... if possible. the added weight per strength is far worth it. ...or I suppose you could always "Box" your 1/8" GM frame.}
Special ground RV cam, crane valve train w/ stellite valves & hardened seats, ported & polished heads,(if you can't find someone, trusted, that can do your head-work right.. stay home 'til you can).
Cloyes True-Roller timing chain.
Holley 700 or 750 duel pumper carb,(I liked the Edelbrock 0-50 Hi-Per intake better than the Holley one. Also make sure the air filter is oversized so it breaths good.. might as well add a very good electronic fuel pump while you're at it).
If you don't run a good set of tuned headers & equally good non-restrictive turbo muffs, you're wasting time & money & the engine simply won't breath right.
Mallory HYFIRE 6AL ignition with the Mallory performance Unilite Electronic distributor. (might as well dump the alternator and convert to a magneto system instead).
The Hurst/Tremec TKO 5 Speed trans,(may not have to install a scattershield, bolts to most GM bell housings).
This way you can keep a std GM Dana full-float rear end,(or install the 3/4 ton-eight-lug so you can still use the same dif-carrier on a slightly higher gear ratio & still run tall/wide rims & tires without snapping axles or eating ring & pinion teeth.. I'd recommend Zoom-Gears, but I heard they've been sold to someone.. ?). {now the key here is to correctly ratio your rear-gears to the engine torque & trans ratio, done right, puts that power direct to the road where it belongs. Whatever ya do, go as high a set of rear gears as the diff-carrier will safely fit.. 4/10s will kill your top end & defeat the Hurst trans.}

Now, you'll only be running premium gas and you'll need to get your foot into this set up at least twice a month just to keep the carbon from choking your engine... but you'll most likely don this any way.

...

Suspension is a different subject.. are ya looking 2x4 or 4x4?



Michael

[catch2otwo]

Sounds like your not trying to build a raptor killer. Raptor killer would imply long travel, high speed off road shenanigans.

Sounds like your looking to build a nice lifted truck with nice fit and finish and plush ride. I'd shoot over to pirate 4x4.

[JimJones]

So to make a 10bolt strong enough it would cost as much as a Dana 60? Thus the only advantage of the 10 bolt would be weight savings? If so how much weight difference is there between a 10bolt and a Dana 60? I'm assuming just based on size alone it will be more than 100 lbs? Also do they make 8 lug axel shafts for the 10 bolt?

[Vintage Windmills]

You may want to just find a 01+ up 2500hd with a bad body and swap a body on it. You could go dmax/ally or built 6.0/4l80e and get the superior handling, ride, and reliability, economy, but with the old truck appearance. Would probably be cheapest in the long run and easier to get parts for.

[jondancer]

Originally Posted by Vintage Windmills

You may want to just find a 01+ up 2500hd with a bad body and swap a body on it. You could go dmax/ally or built 6.0/4l80e and get the superior handling, ride, and reliability, economy, but with the old truck appearance. Would probably be cheapest in the long run and easier to get parts for.

Has this ever been done?

[Vintage Windmills]

Originally Posted by jondancer

Has this ever been done?

theres a guy on this forum doing it on a Tahoe or suburban chassis and I've seen a 67-72 chevy body on a ram cummins chassis also. I'm tempted to do with a longhorn sometime, since it has the same wheelbase as a newer chevy regular cab lwb.

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by Vintage Windmills

You may want to just find a 01+ up 2500hd with a bad body and swap a body on it. You could go dmax/ally or built 6.0/4l80e and get the superior handling, ride, and reliability, economy, but with the old truck appearance. Would probably be cheapest in the long run and easier to get parts for.

My friend Wade (fakerwade on here) put a 67-72 truck body onto a 2003 vintage Tahoe chassis & drivetrain and kept a lot of the Tahoe dash & firewall too. Still a work in progress but most of the hard stuff is done.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=498570

You can pick up a base model LS 2001-2005 vintage K2500 Suburban with 150k on it for $7-9k. Don't need heated leather seats, Tri-zone HVAC and a Bose sound system for a chassis donor but the more expensive LT trim level versions could give you some nice seats to use in your truck and possibly even incorporate the Bose sound system pieces. Using the K2500 Suburban with the 6.0 LQ4 motor, 4L80E and tougher 8-lug parts already in place will save you a ton of money over using a cheaper K1500 Tahoe and having to upgrade the axles, trans & transfer case.

To make the HP you want is pretty easy on a 6.0 LS motor. ASA cam swap with some L92/LS3 heads and matching intake and you are there.

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance...ls376-525.html

LS376/525 = 6.2 with 525hp ~ 6.0 with 500hp

It will have the evil idle sound you want too with the duration and 110 lobe separation of the ASA spec cam.

If you want to swap out the iron truck block in your Suburban donor rig for the LS2 aluminum 6.0 block they are pretty cheap at only $1175 and will drop a good chunk of weight off the front end.

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/LS2-...17488C646.aspx

With the money involved in putting the goodies into the 6.0 truck motor to make the HP you want you are not far off from just buying the LS376/525 crate motor instead and having a brand new engine in the process. Sell off the stock 6.0 engine to make some of your cash back.

The 427 is a great motor and I love them but they can't compare to a modern LS motor for reliability and efficiency while making great power per cubic inch. LS376/525 makes the same torque 489 vs 490 for the ZZ427 but makes 525hp vs 480 for the ZZ427.

Stepping up to a 502 doesn't make much of a dent in the hp difference but does get you over 500 and the longer stroke gets you up to 565 for torque. If you are set on the big block I would go with the ram jet 502 and toss on a set of the cool 427 valve covers.

[Half-Fast]

This would be a good place to get ideas for a "Raptor killer".
http://camburg.com/home/

[62k10&84k20burb]

how about an sm465?

[JimJones]

Ok I just looked up the weight of the GM crate 427 and it's listed at 520 lbs. The next closest in terms of hp small block competitor is the ZZ383 which weighs in at 397 lbs.

Will 123lbs on the front end make a huge difference in ride and handling? And how much better gas mileage would you get with the 383 vs. the 427?

[skorpioskorpio]

Jim,

I know you are thinking 4x4, but with an open mind, read this thread, it may be an easy route to more of what you want:

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=282398

You really need a modern independent front suspension to make it handle like anything other than old truck, and that alone is going to cost you at least half of your budget. If in the end what you want is a truck that go barreling down unimproved roads and get sideways in the turns a prerunner setup may be your ticket.

[JimJones]

Do any of you guys have any experience with any of the 4 suspension shops mentioned in this thread?
http://www.mcneilracinginc.com/
http://www.dixonbrosracing.com/
http://camburg.com/home
http://offroaddesign.com/

My main question would be do these guys just do suspension or do they also do complete builds? And out of these 4 shops which one is best to deal with?

[JimJones]

Anybody got any recommendations for shops that specialize in complete frame off restorations of classic 4x4's?

[Vintage Windmills]

Originally Posted by JimJones

Anybody got any recommendations for shops that specialize in complete frame off restorations of classic 4x4's?

PM deadheadNM here, he just recently had his K20 done in NM and it turned out great!

[JimJones]

Originally Posted by Vintage Windmills

PM deadheadNM here, he just recently had his K20 done in NM and it turned out great!

before i read thru 11 pages. was this his build thread?
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=528308

[grancuda]

Originally Posted by JimJones

before i read thru 11 pages. was this his build thread?
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=528308

That truck doesn't have 1/2 the travel a Raptor has.

[Vintage Windmills]

Correct, that is his build thread.

Originally Posted by grancuda

That truck doesn't have 1/2 the travel a Raptor has.

See below

Originally Posted by JimJones

Let me clarify a little bit.
When I say Raptor killer I don’t have intensions to do to this truck some of the crazy stuff you see people doing with their Raptors on YouTube. The completed truck will mostly be a street truck with some trail use. No jumping, driving thru mud bogs that are as deep as the top of the doors or anything crazy like that.

But I really want the suspension capabilities of something better than a leaf sprung solid front axle. There has to be some kind of suspension upgrades out there for these trucks that don’t require hacking up the body?

You can get a decent ride and handling out of the solid front axle, if you put in a late 70's+ 4x4 variable ratio quick turn steering box and all new ball joints and tie rod ends, that will go a long way. I have driven a 71 K20 set up that way and it was nice. To ditch the leafs you could also bag and 4 link the front axle like Ryanroo is doing.

I suppose you could swap in a newer chevy IFS without any sheetmetal mods but it would probably be harder than the body swap Idea I mentioned.

[JimJones]

Originally Posted by Vintage Windmills

PM deadheadNM here, he just recently had his K20 done in NM and it turned out great!

Hey thanks for letting me know about DeadheadNM. I just read his build thread and I loved every minute of it.

I want to do what he did except I want my build to lean a little more to the performance side instead of the concorus/NOS side. However I still want the body and cab to be as factory original as possible.

[grancuda]

GV only works in 2wd.
Gm doesn't make 10 bolt front axles.
LS platforms are not "the" set-up
LS motors are the latest cheap salvage/decent hp motor.
The LS is not more reliable than a SBC or BBC, period.
700R4 can be built to handle 500+ hp
A Raptor style fender is required for the suspension travel vs rediculously tall body height.

Not sure why in the past 5 years or so all the internet jockeys on forums preach that carb motors/non-LS motors are unreliable. Not sure where this is coming from.

The biggest challenge is the suspension which for what your expectations are, you are going to have to get it engineered/designed by a offload shop like in Arizona/southern California. Lots of trophy truck/buggy shops but you will pay dearly for it to work as well as a Raptor.

I have both a C10 SWB (2wd) & a 2010 Raptor w/6.2L. I wouldn't want to try and make an old truck handle like the Raptor, just too much cash for the design effort associated its king a truck be balanced & handle well.

You could run it like an old 70s baja truck would have been with really good shocks & longer travel good springs but not what a Raptor is capable of.

[leftybass209]

[quote=grancuda;6330001]GV only works in 2wd.
Gm doesn't make 10 bolt front axles.
LS platforms are not "the" set-up
LS motors are the latest cheap salvage/decent hp motor.
The LS is not more reliable than a SBC or BBC, period.
700R4 can be built to handle 500+ hp
A Raptor style fender is required for the suspension travel vs rediculously tall body height.

Not sure why in the past 5 years or so all the internet jockeys on forums preach that carb motors/non-LS motors are unreliable. Not sure where this is coming from.

I have both a C10 SWB (2wd) & a 2010 Raptor w/6.2L.[/quote
It's bad taste you'd insult anyone on this board calling them an internet jockey.It doesn't matter if it's one post or 10,000 on here. You don't know anyone or their background. Insulting opinions drag this board down.

[jdw]

Buy a brand new frame and chassis with a nice clean ls motor, swap the body onto it. 50k buys a lot. With a warranty.

[special-K]

Originally Posted by JimJones

I want to build a C10 that is the classic equitant of a modern day Ford Raptor. Something that keeps most of the style and mechanical components of old but has modern day capabilities. Something that can unquestionably hold its own in any situation but also be fun and reliable to drive. And most importantly something that doesn't break down every other week.

Check out this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF2lg06Xfh0


I love this truck. I haven't been able to stop thinking about it since I first saw this vid last summer. I want my finished truck to look very similar to this. But I want to upgrade some of the mechanical components to make it more fun to drive. I mean what's the point of spending 50k fixing up an old truck when at the end of the day it drives and handles like a 50 year old truck.

I need your guy's advice on what parts you would use to set this up. For me engine and tranny choice is easy. I'm planning on running a GM crate 427 and a 700r4 tranny what I need the most help with is axels and transfer cases including the parts that go inside of them like axel shafts, differentials, lockers and all the little parts that go inside of them like bearings and what not.
What axels front and rear would you choose if you were planning on 500hp and 33-35" tires? And what parts would you stuff inside of them?

Same thing with the suspension and this is the is the most important part of making a 50 year old truck be able to hold its own with a Raptor or modern day 4x4. What kind of suspension set up will be able to do what I want? Just putting new shocks and bushings on a 50 year old C10 is not going to give me the ride and handling I'm after. What kind of suspension mods are out there for 4x4 C10's?
For years I was into early Broncos and there is a plethora of aftermarket companies out there that make all kinds of suspension mods for them are there any companies out there that do the same for C10's?

Short list of stuff I want on the truck
4x4, Longbed, GM crate 427, 700r4, 4 wheel disc brakes, Front and rear axles with lockers that can withstand 500hp & 33" - 35" tire smoking burnouts and fishtails without snapping. And basically be able to have a finished truck that will last 100k mi without any major repair bills. I'm not going to thru the trouble and hassle of having this thing built to have to deal with going to the shop ever week to have something worked on. I want everything to be as bullet proof as possible.
So what parts and components would you guys go with? I appreciate any suggestions you guys have

I dunno. I would enjoy driving that truck in the video,just as it is,till the day I die. Heck,I've been doing just that for 40 years. They are exactly what I like and "WHY" I like them. If I wanted something that drove like a Ford Raptor I'd buy a Ford Raptor.

[JimJones]

Originally Posted by special-K

I dunno. I would enjoy driving that truck in the video,just as it is,till the day I die. Heck,I've been doing just that for 40 years. They are exactly what I like and "WHY" I like them. If I wanted something that drove like a Ford Raptor I'd buy a Ford Raptor.

I know what you mean I feel the same way about cutting up the body. It's just that I think it would be more enjoyable to not have to slow down to a snails crawl when going over severely washed out roads and ditches. I want to be able to blast thru them with the gas pedal floored without breaking anything or bottoming out.

Where ill eventually end up even the paved roads "if you can call them that" are in horrible condition and you can't go much more than 10 MPH in a regular truck.

I love that green/white truck in the video and I want to build basically the same thing just with a bad ass suspension that is capable of taking a beating. I guess I used the Ford Raptor because it’s the only vehicle that I know of that comes pretty well set up from the factory and everybody can pretty much agree weather you like Fords or not that it’s a very capable truck.

[JimJones]

Let me ask you guys this. Originally I was planning on trying to locate a 3/4 ton long bed truck that had leaf springs. But now I'm wondering if I might be better off to use a 1/2 long bed with rear coil springs. Would you get more suspension travel with the coil spring truck? And are there parts out there to beef up a rear coil spring suspension?

[skorpioskorpio]

Originally Posted by JimJones

Let me ask you guys this. Originally I was planning on trying to locate a 3/4 ton long bed truck that had leaf springs. But now I'm wondering if I might be better off to use a 1/2 long bed with rear coil springs. Would you get more suspension travel with the coil spring truck? And are there parts out there to beef up a rear coil spring suspension?

Yes you can probably get longer travel and more predictable suspension out of trailing arms and coilovers in the rear. If you are considering a leaf sprung solid axle in the front you'll be building the truck suspension equivelent of a mullet except that which is the "business" end and which is the "party" end is kind of open to interpretation.

The more this thread seems to evolve the more I'm thinking to get what you want to do with the truck and it not turning into a huge money pit, it comes down to prerunner or rebody. There isn't a whole lot of easily adaptable 4WD systems that are really good at flooring it through washed out roads and ditches. You need an independent front suspension if you want to take things at speed that don't give and you need a transfer case that acts as a differential between front and rear and not something that simply sends power to both ends. The Raptor I'm sure is doing electronic biasing between front and rear. I don't know the system specifically but all the AWD rally cars are that way and it sounds like that is what you are looking for really.

The typical truck 4WD system through the 90's is useful for crawling, keeping you from getting stuck in greasy mud and offers some advantages in ice and snow, in the dry in 4WD it'll buck like a misbehaving dog. These old 4WD systems do much better at 10mph than floored, it just is what it is.

I've had a 1991 Suburban, the last of the solid axle trucks since it was new, with 37s on it decent travel on a relativly short lift (I stretched the wells to make things work) and once I got away from the land of snow, I hardly ever used 4WD again even off road. And not too long into that truck I killed the automatic hubs and replaced them with much more durable but far less convinient manual Warns. The solid axle has a lot of front to back movement of the tire because the ball joints are so far inboard and the handling is really pretty poor if you are a spirited driver, quick ratio won't help that and it's not going to give you a vehicle that will do a good Scandinavian Flick into a dirt road turn.

The truck I'm building now will be 9" off the ground at the frame and have twice the suspension travel my Suburban had and I could sit under that truck.