Is this truck worth it?

[kalbert]

Originally Posted by bighog85

Hey everyone, I wanted to get some opinions on whether a truck that I am considering is worth the asking price. It is an 85 c-10 shortbox that has been completely restored except for the interior which is already in very nice condition. It has a brand new ZZ4 350 crate motor, completely redone tranny, transfer case, etc. The truck is from west Texas and is perfect, completely rust and bondo free. The current owner is the one that did all of the work, he bought it stock. He says he's got about $24,000 into it and is asking $13,000. Does this seem like a good price or should I haggle a bit more? This would be somewhat of a daily driver for my short commute to work but also I'm looking for a bit of a toy. Opinions? Also, if more info would be helpful I can get whatever is needed. I'm meeting with him today. Thanks!

I'm skeptical right away. The things you list read like every Chevy pickup on Craigslist anywhere that has new paint. 350's are always ZZ4's or from a 'Vette. They're all rust free from Texas. They all have completely redone transmissions, transfer cases, etc... They all have tens of thousands of dollars invested, but asking price is a fraction of that.

Here's some questions right off the bat. Texas? How did it get to North Dakota? Does that story sound like a story or does it seem plausible? Before you spend $13k, spend $50 at the GM Heritage center and see if it came from Texas.

ZZ4 eh? 350HP? Says who? Where are the correct ZZ4 heads? Does that story sound like a story or does it seem plausible?

Rust and bondo free? How about sheet metal? Original or cheap aftermarket replacements? Who painted it and what was used?

Rebuilt tranny and transfercase? What was wrong with them that prompted the rebuild? Age? Worn out? Damaged? Who did the work? Not who bolted it in, who tore it down and replaced the bearings, seals, clutches, etc.

Parts for these trucks are cheap, probably one of the cheapest vehicles there are to restore or hot rod. $24k invested would about build two of them! I'd expect the little details like door seals and gaskets and all the hood rubbers and tailgate bumpers to be new or like new. The ball joints and tie rod ends would all be tight, no squeaky u-joints, brake pedal is high and firm. It doesn't just look and sound nice, it has been either well preserved or has been repaired to pristine mechanical operation, not just new paint and a motor.

What I see in the pictures is a nice pickup that somebody probably bolted some new sheet metal on and painted, put a new motor in, a 4" lift and 33" tires. You might see something different in person, it's very hard to judge what work has/hasn't been done from photos. Easy to tell it looks nice, but hard to tell what was done to get there.

[rich weyand]

Be sure to read that site in my post above and learn to recognize the engine block ID codes. You can take one look at the ID code on the front of the block next to the head and know exactly what block it is.

[bighog85]

Originally Posted by kalbert

I'm skeptical right away. The things you list read like every Chevy pickup on Craigslist anywhere that has new paint. 350's are always ZZ4's or from a 'Vette. They're all rust free from Texas. They all have completely redone transmissions, transfer cases, etc... They all have tens of thousands of dollars invested, but asking price is a fraction of that.

Here's some questions right off the bat. Texas? How did it get to North Dakota? Does that story sound like a story or does it seem plausible? Before you spend $13k, spend $50 at the GM Heritage center and see if it came from Texas.

ZZ4 eh? 350HP? Says who? Where are the correct ZZ4 heads? Does that story sound like a story or does it seem plausible?

Rust and bondo free? How about sheet metal? Original or cheap aftermarket replacements? Who painted it and what was used?

Rebuilt tranny and transfercase? What was wrong with them that prompted the rebuild? Age? Worn out? Damaged? Who did the work? Not who bolted it in, who tore it down and replaced the bearings, seals, clutches, etc.

Parts for these trucks are cheap, probably one of the cheapest vehicles there are to restore or hot rod. $24k invested would about build two of them! I'd expect the little details like door seals and gaskets and all the hood rubbers and tailgate bumpers to be new or like new. The ball joints and tie rod ends would all be tight, no squeaky u-joints, brake pedal is high and firm. It doesn't just look and sound nice, it has been either well preserved or has been repaired to pristine mechanical operation, not just new paint and a motor.

What I see in the pictures is a nice pickup that somebody probably bolted some new sheet metal on and painted, put a new motor in, a 4" lift and 33" tires. You might see something different in person, it's very hard to judge what work has/hasn't been done from photos. Easy to tell it looks nice, but hard to tell what was done to get there.

I definitely agree with you on the skepticism. I actually just got home from meeting with him and driving the truck. I learned enough in the last few hours before I went to be able to ID a ZZ4 and this is definitely not one. It is just a factory 350 crate that he ordered from the local Chevy dealership and had installed by a local shop. When I called him out on it he seemed genuinely surprised and claimed that he thought he had ordered a ZZ4. I have the receipts for it and am going to the dealership tomorrow to see if they can tell me exactly what he has.

As far as the rest of the truck, it certainly looks VERY nice. Again, he says no rust or bondo. He has receipts for work that was done at a shop in Texas which is where he is from so that checks out. There were receipts for at least a transfer case rebuild but it was from 1996. I didn't notice that until I got home (he let me take a big pile from the glove compartment to look through) so I will find out if it has been done more recently. He also said he has around $8,000 into the paint which seems really high. I've never had a vehicle painted though so I don't have anything to compare it to.

Since I know the motor is not a ZZ4 I told him that I was not going to pay $13,000. He said he would take $12,000 if I can find out what motor he does have exactly, which I suspect we already know but he wants to hear it from the dealership that sold it to him. I'm going to do a little detective work and then get back to him tomorrow. One thing I did notice when I drove it is that it is very tight. No rattles, squeaks or anything. It feels every bit as good as my 08 Tacoma. That impressed me and was a positive sign towards the truck being as good as he says it is. Keep the info coming guys, you have been hugely helpful!

[turbosix]

The trucks color was not originally blue.

[bighog85]

Originally Posted by turbosix

The trucks color was not originally blue.

It isn't blue now, it is black. Not sure if that was original either but it looks nice so I don't really care what it originally was.

[K5owner]

Originally Posted by kalbert

What I see in the pictures is a nice pickup that somebody probably bolted some new sheet metal on and painted, put a new motor in, a 4" lift and 33" tires. You might see something different in person, it's very hard to judge what work has/hasn't been done from photos. Easy to tell it looks nice, but hard to tell what was done to get there.

That is no 4" lift. Mine is a 4" procomp lift and I can run 35" tires with no rubbing even with the sway bar disconnected and twisting it up pretty good. At best that is a 2" lift with 33's. More then likely just a 3 spring front pack and/or a 1" zero rates. Like I said OP that is a clean truck and a decent deal for you at $11,500 or slightly less. I wouldn't give him $12K for it. You are being more then fair at that price point. Check the frame where the steering box is bolted to for cracks http://image.off-roadweb.com/f/26648...eering_box.jpg or a reinforcement plate welded to it like this http://image.dieselpowermag.com/f/te...te_install.jpg

[bighog85]

Originally Posted by K5owner

That is no 4" lift. Mine is a 4" procomp lift and I can run 35" tires with no rubbing even with the sway bar disconnected and twisting it up pretty good. At best that is a 2" lift with 33's. More then likely just a 3 spring front pack and/or a 1" zero rates. Like I said OP that is a clean truck and a decent deal for you at $11,500 or slightly less. I wouldn't give him $12K for it. You are being more then fair at that price point.

It isn't lifted at all. He has it scheduled to get a 2" lift which I think would look really nice but if I buy it I'd just do it myself. I told him that $11,500 was a good starting point and he balked pretty hard at that. The thing that maybe I have to keep in mind is that if I want a truck like that, my choices are going to be very limited due to the area that I live. I've searched craigslist in ND and MT and there aren't very many that even look comparable for that price point. Most guys want $15,000+ for their restored truck. I'm certainly not the expert here though so I will think about trying to get him down more, if I can get past the whole motor thing. It bothers me that he either didn't know what he had or was trying to pass it off as a ZZ4 on purpose. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but for the most part I don't trust people any farther than I can throw them.

[K5owner]

I am always one to say it is better to pay a little more at the time or purchase as long as you are getting better truck from the get go. If he is balking at $11,500 he has to realize the truck isn't what he described it as. Doesn't mean he has to take a bath but it does mean there is a HUGE difference between a $1600 crate engine and a $4000+ one. That difference is more then $500 IMHO

[bighog85]

Originally Posted by K5owner

I am always one to say it is better to pay a little more at the time or purchase as long as you are getting better truck from the get go. If he is balking at $11,500 he has to realize the truck isn't what he described it as. Doesn't mean he has to take a bath but it does mean there is a HUGE difference between a $1600 crate engine and a $4000+ one. That difference is more then $500 IMHO

That is very true. The receipt for the motor says he paid just over $1,800 for it so obviously not a ZZ4. I'm thinking he may be desperate enough that if I tell him that $12,000 is to much that he may either come down more or if I walk away he'd probably call later.

Next question, if I do end up with the truck what are my options for increasing the power? I had my heart set on that 350 HP and while the motor is no slouch, it certainly isn't what I was expecting.

[bighog85]

I just found this one over in the Fargo area so like 4 hours away from me. I love the old stepsides. Thoughts? Probably has the same motor as the 85.

http://nd.craigslist.org/cto/4448683300.html

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by bighog85

It isn't lifted at all. He has it scheduled to get a 2" lift which I think would look really nice but if I buy it I'd just do it myself. I told him that $11,500 was a good starting point and he balked pretty hard at that. The thing that maybe I have to keep in mind is that if I want a truck like that, my choices are going to be very limited due to the area that I live. I've searched craigslist in ND and MT and there aren't very many that even look comparable for that price point. Most guys want $15,000+ for their restored truck. I'm certainly not the expert here though so I will think about trying to get him down more, if I can get past the whole motor thing. It bothers me that he either didn't know what he had or was trying to pass it off as a ZZ4 on purpose. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but for the most part I don't trust people any farther than I can throw them.

Exactly.... It would be nice to allow the 'benefit of doubt'. But from the outside looking in, he specifically used that ZZ4 tag as a selling point as an added value for the truck.

Like mentioned, crate 350's are ~$2k.... the ZZ4 is closer to $6K which is a big difference when negotiating price of a vehicle. Now that $24K investment that he wants 54% return on @ 13K should be adjusted accordingly. So 24K invested - 3K (difference between the ZZ4 & a standard replacement 350) is 21K & 54% would yield 11.5K dollar for dollar. $11K is a fair offer. $11.5K is a great offer & shouldn't be balked at. He should work to get any difference from the dealership that sold him the motor..... NOT YOU.

That being said, you stated these are few & far between in your area. Are you willing to walk away from it for $500? How much is a plane ticket to TX & then return fuel costs from TX back to your area should you find the exact same truck here?

I would bring 11.5K cash-in-hand & say thats the offer.

[K5owner]

Look at this one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Si...US_Cars_Trucks

It says best off too. Offer $10,500 and see what happens.

[bighog85]

Is there any way that his claim of an $8,000 paint job is accurate?

[Sodell]

Run away...That guy is being untruthful about a lot of things. He is exaggerating about the things he has done, or had done...You will have a hard time finding a decent truck like that in your area, but I bet you could find one in another state and have it shipped for much less. Heck, you find a decent one with no rust, have it shipped, for a few grand and build it the way you want.

[bighog85]

Originally Posted by K5owner

Look at this one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Si...US_Cars_Trucks

It says best off too. Offer $10,500 and see what happens.

Then I have to get it from South Carolina though so not the most cost effective.

[K5owner]

Possible. but for 8k it had better be show quality. Shipping would be about a grand.

[bighog85]

Originally Posted by K5owner

Possible. but for 8k it had better be show quality. Shipping would be about a grand.

It is very nice paint, I can't argue that so I will assume the best with that. That definitely opens up some doors knowing that shipping wouldn't be ruinously expensive if I find a good deal. I'll be checking ebay.

[trixter99]

It's worth whatever you are comfortable paying for it. I can assure you that you can not build one for anywhere that kind of money. I sold my 86 long box for fifteen thousand eight years ago. It had all new gm steel and tri coat paint 9 inches of lift and 37 superswampers.where. Where I live 13,000 is reasonable.

[rich weyand]

OK, a bunch of different things.

- I think a clean, no rust, short box, 4WD with a new crate motor and A/C is worth $13K, absent other problems. You might want to wrap a nice magnet in a shop rag and test some typical rust-out areas to check for bondo, and definitely check things like the frame rail at the steering box. At Mecum KC or Mecum Indy, for example, that truck would probably pull around $15,000.

- $24,000 into that truck, given that he had the work shopped, is right on the numbers. I have more than that in mine, and it hasn't been repainted yet, though I did do some things he didn't, like heated leather 40-20-40 buckets, new dual tanks, +2/+3 Tuff Country lift, electric fan, etc. I also don't have A/C, but I paid more than market for the truck originally because it was the model, year, and color I wanted. (You ought to look at a +2/+3 lift, BTW; it puts the top of the fender cutouts the same height off the pavement.) But for what he said he had done, if he shopped it all and used new parts, he's in the ballpark.

- When you build up a vehicle for yourself, shopping out the work, you can figure to get about half of what you put in it back out of it. The speed shops make money at it, but 1) they get parts wholesale, 2) they don't pay shop rate for labor, and 3) they don't put any money into anything that won't return the investment, where we might because, well, dammit, that's the way we want it.

- I have a current bid to have my truck painted by a guy who knows what he is doing. He will take out all the glass, remove all the trim, take it down to metal, and build the paint back up, cleaning up little issues here and there in the sheet metal, with color coat, clear coat, buffing and the like, and then reassemble it all. He does great work; he's done a bunch of the local cruiser club cars. $8,000.

- To get real nice performance out of that engine, put in a Comp Cams 12-235-2 cam and new lifters, make sure the mixture is dialed in properly (you don't say whether it is TBI or carb, and, if carb, which one) using an A/FR meter, add an H-tube and some free-flow mufflers, run synthetic fluids in both the engine and the tranny, and dial about 18* of base timing into it. That will beat the torque peak of the ZZ4, and at lower RPM. Horsepower gets all the headlines, but torque is what you drive.

I like that he was sheepish about the ZZ4 thing. He may just not know what he is talking about.

If it checks out otherwise, I would go for it for $13,000, though if you showed up with $12,000 or $12,500 in dead presidents in your hand, he would probably take it.

[K5owner]

I am still at 11.5-12K for the whole thing. I agree with Rich about the cam and lifters in regards to that engine being woke up with it. I believe the pics show a edelbrock carb on it no? Now what is your bargaining chip is the fact that he doesn't really know what corners were cut in regards to mechanicals. He thought he had a ZZ4 when it clearly wasn't. For me that is a biggie as if I am spending $13K for a 30 year old truck I better be able to drive it across the country in as sold condition. Now with that said what are you honestly comfortable paying for it? Is this the first one you looked at in person? I looked at about a dozen blazers and half dozen K10's before I bought both of mine. I agree cash in hand speaks volumes. 11.5-12K is it for that truck for me. There was one for sale locally(so cal) for $14k but it had paint, body, interior, 1 tons, 4L80 and LS conversion done to it. It needed nothing(not seals, ac, gauges or anything) and he got his asking price of not much more then the one you are looking at. They are out there it just depends on if you are patient and have the cash ready.

[rich weyand]

I have a tuning spec for that carb on that engine with headers, that's good with or without the cam change, so you can dial that puppy in to a T without springing for an A/FR meter. He's probably running rich, using more gas to get less power.

Just another little consideration.

[bighog85]

Originally Posted by K5owner

I am still at 11.5-12K for the whole thing. I agree with Rich about the cam and lifters in regards to that engine being woke up with it. Now what is your bargaining chip is the fact that he doesn't really know what corners were cut in regards to mechanicals. For me that is a biggie as if I am spending $13K for a 30 year old truck I better be able to drive it across the country in as sold condition. Now with that said what are you honestly comfortable paying for it? Is this the first one you looked at in person? I looked at about a dozen blazers and half dozen K10's before I bought mine. I agree cash in hand speaks volumes. 11.5-12K is it for that truck for me

Well he has already said that he would take $12,000 for it so it's mine for that if I want it. I do wonder what corners have been cut though. I am a perfectionist and if I had done the work myself there would be no questions about the quality. I understand that not everyone is like that and obviously I am getting the truck for much less than it would cost for me to do that work. I drove the truck, it felt really tight, engine was smooth, tranny shifted a little rough which he attributed to a torque converter and assured me that it was not damaging anything. The interior is in good shape but it is brown and will drive me crazy until I redo it. It also needs a new headliner. Other than that, all molding, trim, etc. is good. Body looked good but now that I know some things to look for I can check into that some more. I wish it had that other motor because again, I know that I am going to have to do new cams to try to get it close to where I want it but because it doesn't have that motor I got him to come down at least a grand so that is always nice. This truck would be my daily driver so I need it to be rock solid and that is where I get hung up. The seller is obviously quite ignorant to the mechanics of his own truck or he is a liar. I was just looking through more of the receipts and I noticed that the one for the motor which he said had been installed a little over a year ago is dated for June, 2011. Now, he did say that he does not drive the truck much and being as he is an older guy I could see how time would slip away when the truck is in storage 8 months out of the year. The big problem is that the warranty that he told me about I believe will only last another month. I just wish that people could be truthful about things because this is a nice truck that I'd love to have. I just don't know what to believe here.

[bighog85]

Originally Posted by rich weyand

I have a tuning spec for that carb on that engine with headers, that's good with or without the cam change, so you can dial that puppy in to a T without springing for an A/FR meter. He's probably running rich, using more gas to get less power.

Just another little consideration.

I appreciate the input. If I get this thing I will certainly become a regular at this board. I have a lot to learn.

[Slammed84]

Those are goodwrench 350 valve covers, hes lying. Plus a ZZ4 is a one piece rear seal motor, completely different block as well.

[rich weyand]

Going back to the pics, I notice that the vacuum advance is connected to manifold vacuum, which is the better choice, and not ported vacuum, which makes for off-idle hesitation. That's subtle, and easy to get wrong (I think MOST people get it wrong), so whoever set it up knew something about what they were doing. That goes to your perfectionist, "gee, I hope it was done right" concerns.

BTW, do you know what the axle ratio is? The factory RPO sheet should be on the inside of the glove box door (if the glove box door hasn't been replaced) so that is a good thing to look at in terms of the original configuration of the truck. Even if the glove box door has been replaced (like mine), he may have retained the RPO sheet (like I did). Maybe he can email you a pic of the RPO sheet, and that will let yo ulook up all the options, like the axle ratio. We can also decode the VIN for you, which gives you some extra info.

The factory axle ratio has probably not been changed, especially since it is a 4WD and it means changing two of them, so the RPO sheet is probably still correct on that. I have the 3.43:1 ratio, with 31" BFGs, which means I am running closer to an effective 3.21:1 ratio, with a similar cam (my 12-300-4 cam has a little more torque than the 12-235-2, though I give up some rpms/hp on top), and if I lean on the go button a little too hard even on cool, dry pavement, I can break those big BFGs loose, even with only 29# of air in the rears and 300# of ballast in the bed.

Which isn't doing too bad for a re-cammed 350/260 hp engine pushing through 4WD hardware. If that truck has a 3.78:1 axle ratio, and you re-cam that engine, you will be able to spin 'em pretty good, even if you go to 31" tires.