Which is best for thermal protection of your starter?

[pjmoreland]

The remote solenoid is an elegant and inexpensive solution. My stock starter developed the hot start issue recently, so I went with a mini starter only because I didn't want to modify the stock wiring. I miss the sound of the stock starter though.

[RichardJ]

The typical Bosch type relay draws 50 milliamps.

The typical ford type relay draws 10Amps.

The Ford relay can be wired a number of different ways, but it stills adds an extra 10Amp load on the battery while cranking.

The Bosch relay can really be only wired one way and that is to reduce the load on the ignition switch from the Delco solenoid. The hold-in winding in the Delco solenoid draws 10Amps while cranking. The Bosch relay carries that 10Amps and only puts a 50milliamp load on the ignition switch.

If your starter draws 300Amps and the Delco Solenoid draws 10Amps, why would you add an additional 10Amp ford relay to the battery load.

Think of this as like using a Bosch relay to take the current load off the headlight switch with the very popular headlight conversions.

You could actually use the ford relays to do the headlight conversion but I'm sure that doesn't need an explanation.

[KQQL IT]

Originally Posted by RichardJ

The typical Bosch type relay draws 50 milliamps.

The typical ford type relay draws 10Amps.

The Ford relay can be wired a number of different ways, but it stills adds an extra 10Amp load on the battery while cranking.

The Bosch relay can really be only wired one way and that is to reduce the load on the ignition switch from the Delco solenoid. The hold-in winding in the Delco solenoid draws 10Amps while cranking. The Bosch relay carries that 10Amps and only puts a 50milliamp load on the ignition switch.

If your starter draws 300Amps and the Delco Solenoid draws 10Amps, why would you add an additional 10Amp ford relay to the battery load.

Think of this as like using a Bosch relay to take the current load off the headlight switch with the very popular headlight conversions.

You could actually use the ford relays to do the headlight conversion but I'm sure that doesn't need an explanation.

Recently added the relay to the solenoid on old blue.
Not realizing I was chasing a voltage drop from bad cable's.
Starts better than this truck ever has.

[Getter-Done]

A mini starter has solved my problems in the past.

I have used the relay option in other applications.

Here is a Link to summit s relay kit and wiring diagram.

Link for diagram : https://static.summitracing.com/glob...PLIED%20SCREWS.

Link for kit : https://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRF-30203

[palallin]

Originally Posted by KQQL IT

Not realizing I was chasing a voltage drop from bad cable's.
Starts better than this truck ever has.

Not arguing against the relay at all, but this problem is responsible for by far most of the issues, I suspect. Replacing the cables certainly solved my trucks problem, oh so long ago, and it hasn't recurred.

[special-K]

Yep, good cables complete the package. I put a hot high compression motor in my Harley and gained chronic starting problems. A high-torque/higher amp starter, hi-amp battery, and fat quality cables. Never a starting problem again

[70cst]

Thanks all... appreciated

[GASoline71]

Originally Posted by jimijam00

3) Header delete.

Blasphemy!

Originally Posted by Getter-Done

A mini starter has solved my problems in the past.

I have used the relay option in other applications.

Here is a Link to summit s relay kit and wiring diagram.

Link for diagram : https://static.summitracing.com/glob...PLIED%20SCREWS.

Link for kit : https://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRF-30203

Thank you for those links!

Gary

[franken]

Zero troubleshooting and a desire for the internet to vote on the issue with no info. This will go well.
Add more parts, randomly replace parts, waste money and maybe get lucky and solve the issue.
This plan is perfect.

[Accelo]

Zero troubleshooting and a desire for the internet to vote on the issue with no info. This will go well. Add more parts, randomly replace parts, waste money and maybe get lucky and solve the issue. This plan is perfect.
I love sarcasm!

[70cst]

Originally Posted by franken

Zero troubleshooting and a desire for the internet to vote on the issue with no info. This will go well.
Add more parts, randomly replace parts, waste money and maybe get lucky and solve the issue.
This plan is perfect.

You answer really adds little to the thread ... not helpful.

[franken]

Much like your useless reply...

My response, obviously at least to a small few suggests that rather than pronounce that the issue is something, troubleshooting the issue is the way to resolve the issue in real life.

Of course, it's much simpler, easier, and cheaper to let the internet vote on what the problem is. Everyone knows this.

[special-K]

I see you like to sprinkle sarcasm onto your heap of skeptical assumption. The purpose, in case you didn't know, of this forum is just this type of thing. Forum, look it up. It's not a tech manual. Have you ever sat down and gathered just how many people have been helped with their truck issues in the years this message board has existed by doing just what 70 CST has done here? Do you think everyone here has the mechanical/diagnostic knowhow that you have? Would it have been possible for you to have posted your exact same message in a friendly helpful way, as if talking to a friend?

"70 CST, What I would suggest before buying anything is do a starting system diagnostic rundown. Lots of good suggestions here for what your issue might possibly be. If you decide to diagnose yourself, you have great information to work with. I'd suggest you start with checking..."

[70cst]

Originally Posted by special-K

I see you like to sprinkle sarcasm onto your heap of skeptical assumption. The purpose, in case you didn't know, of this forum is just this type of thing. Forum, look it. It's not a tech manual. Have you ever sat down and gathered just how many people have been helped with their truck issues in the years this message board has existed by doing just what 70 CST has done here? Do you think everyone here has the mechanical/diagnostic knowhow that you have? Would it have been possible for you to have posted your exact same message in a friendly helpful way, as if talking to a friend?

"70 CST, What I would suggest before buying anything is do a starting system diagnostic rundown. Lots of good suggestions here for what your issue might possibly be. If you decide to diagnose yourself, you have great information to work with. I'd suggest you start with checking..."

Thanks, Special-K
The replies have been helpful.
I believe the issue is the overheating of the Solenoid ... after the no start issue happens - I can set for about 5-10 minutes and the truck will start right up. I am leaning towards installing a remote solenoid that Getter-Done recommended.
Thanks Again.

[Ol Blue K20]

Originally Posted by 70cst

Thanks, Special-K
The replies have been helpful.
I believe the issue is the overheating of the Solenoid ... after the no start issue happens - I can set for about 5-10 minutes and the truck will start right up. I am leaning towards installing a remote solenoid that Getter-Done recommended.
Thanks Again.

On my 427 big block with headers, I solved the problem by installing a starter from a 96 Suburban 454. It's smaller and lighter. I haven't had an issue since.

['68OrangeSunshine]

Originally Posted by Getter-Done

A mini starter has solved my problems in the past.

I have used the relay option in other applications.

Here is a Link to summit s relay kit and wiring diagram.

Link for diagram : https://static.summitracing.com/glob...PLIED%20SCREWS.

Link for kit : https://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRF-30203

The kit from Summit is very much like the one I got from Jeg's about 15 years ago. It was $24.95 then, but the Purple and Pink [GM coded]
wires were other colors. I had to use 3M elec tape to code my ''Purple'' line.
The Ford-type solenoid has outlasted my first headers. But they were doomed when I mummy wrapped them in 2'' tape. Looked way cool. Lowered underhood temps. Best effect was how they muffled the sound. Purred like a Cadillac. The mummy wrap voided a lifetime warranty.

[HO455]

Here is a quick description of the current path to energize the solenoid and a basic diagram to help illustrate the number of connections involved.

Starts at the positive battery post connector, passes through the fusible link. (an undersized wire to protect the harness from overcurrent situations.) to the insulated post on the fender.
From there to the factory crimped splice inside of the engine harness near the horn.
From there through the firewall connectors to the factory crimped splice inside of the under dash harness.
From that splice to the ignition switch connector and the switch contacts.
Out of the ignition switch to the neutral safety switch connectors and the switch contacts inside of the switch.
Then back through the firewall connectors and down to the solenoid.

As you can see there are a lot of connections that have to be perfect. Everyone of these connections can add a small voltage drop to the circuit. Add in corrosion and heat and that voltage drop increases. The end result is that when you turn the switch if the voltage at the solenoid drops to 8 or 9 volts the solenoid is unlikely to operate.

To check for this you can put the positive lead of a voltmeter on the solenoid coil post and the black lead to the negative post on the battery. Then have someone start the engine. If the voltage is below 10 volts you have a wiring issue to locate.

Heat causes resistance to increase in the wiring. Less wiring less resistance.

The Ford solenoid conversion is one of the ways to bypass all the connections and get full voltage to the solenoid coil.

[KW5413]

Back to post # 1...My '76 Cutlass with "built" Rocket 350 had long tube headers sitting in very close proximity to the starter. The heat wrap took care of the heat saturation issues in that application.

[72SB]

Having had to skin this cat before (slow or no start when engine, thus starter, was hot....I found there were multiple issues causing the problem.

1. Purple wire to starter solenoid lives behind motor and generally very close to exhaust manifold or header. This wire must be inspected and replaced if needed. Then route that, and the other wires going to starter (yellow??) in a split loom heat wrap. Vibrant Performance makes various diameters in 4" lengths sold through places like Summit, Jegs.

2. Then there are headers next to starter....a smaller, gear reduction, type starter (I posted a REMP x reference chart earlier) not only will have a bigger air gap between it and offending heat source (headers) but also will crank a higher compression motor over faster....let alone a stock compression motor

3. Battery cables. They may look "OK" from outside but are fatigued and brittle inside and way to thin a gauge (read stock size cables) so a # 2 or bigger (read #1) will work better

Do all 3 things above and you will not have a working starter otherwise fail because of heat exposure.

Remote solenoid is "a" way of resolving issue #2 above only...the other 2 possible causes though it will not

[70cst]

Originally Posted by HO455

Here is a quick description of the current path to energize the solenoid and a basic diagram to help illustrate the number of connections involved.

Starts at the positive battery post connector, passes through the fusible link. (an undersized wire to protect the harness from overcurrent situations.) to the insulated post on the fender.
From there to the factory crimped splice inside of the engine harness near the horn.
From there through the firewall connectors to the factory crimped splice inside of the under dash harness.
From that splice to the ignition switch connector and the switch contacts.
Out of the ignition switch to the neutral safety switch connectors and the switch contacts inside of the switch.
Then back through the firewall connectors and down to the solenoid.

As you can see there are a lot of connections that have to be perfect. Everyone of these connections can add a small voltage drop to the circuit. Add in corrosion and heat and that voltage drop increases. The end result is that when you turn the switch if the voltage at the solenoid drops to 8 or 9 volts the solenoid is unlikely to operate.

To check for this you can put the positive lead of a voltmeter on the solenoid coil post and the black lead to the negative post on the battery. Then have someone start the engine. If the voltage is below 10 volts you have a wiring issue to locate.

Heat causes resistance to increase in the wiring. Less wiring less resistance.

The Ford solenoid conversion is one of the ways to bypass all the connections and get full voltage to the solenoid coil.

Thanks

[70cst]

Originally Posted by 72SB

Having had to skin this cat before (slow or no start when engine, thus starter, was hot....I found there were multiple issues causing the problem.

1. Purple wire to starter solenoid lives behind motor and generally very close to exhaust manifold or header. This wire must be inspected and replaced if needed. Then route that, and the other wires going to starter (yellow??) in a split loom heat wrap. Vibrant Performance makes various diameters in 4" lengths sold through places like Summit, Jegs. fairly new wiring

2. Then there are headers next to starter....a smaller, gear reduction, type starter (I posted a REMP x reference chart earlier) not only will have a bigger air gap between it and offending heat source (headers) but also will crank a higher compression motor over faster....let alone a stock compression motor
No headers

3. Battery cables. They may look "OK" from outside but are fatigued and brittle inside and way to thin a gauge (read stock size cables) so a # 2 or bigger (read #1) will work better New cables

Do all 3 things above and you will not have a working starter otherwise fail because of heat exposure.

Remote solenoid is "a" way of resolving issue #2 above only...the other 2 possible causes though it will not

Thanks- all good ideas.

[70cst]

I did purchase the Painless Performance Remote Starter Solenoids 30203 kit.

It is a heat related issue ...

Thoe who posted solid replies - Thanks
You are what makes this forum rock!

[custom10nut]

I ended up using a Heat Shield Blanket, and also fabricated a Heat shield from a piece of Stainless steel sheet, and attached it to the header. Since I’ve done this, I’ve had no problems with Heat Soak on the Starter motor