47-55.1 Eliminate draft tube options

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by leegreen

it has probably close on 40 years since I have had one of those apart, but I think this is the gasket and that slot you see is pressurized oil for the nozzle

Attachment 2321291

When I saw this, I went through the metric ton of gaskets that were in a box that came along with the truck and I found these. My question is, to replace the gasket behind that plate, won't I need to remove the timing gears from the crank and cam? That sounds like brain surgery to me, although several of the tasks I've undertaken in the past 18 months have also appeared that way. As it is said "what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger"

[leegreen]

probably the gears have to come off, its been a long time

you could remove front mount and spin the pump with a drill down distributor hole to help confirm the source

I think the front mount bolts through block would have originally had nuts inside the block, and threading the holes was a common shortcut to allow easier removal of the mount plate. you said that you retapped for larger bolts,
and it sounds like the leak has gotten worse since you started working on it....maybe some thread locker for sealant on those 2 bolts before ripping it all apart again?

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by leegreen

probably the gears have to come off, its been a long time

you could remove front mount and spin the pump with a drill down distributor hole to help confirm the source

I think the front mount bolts through block would have originally had nuts inside the block, and threading the holes was a common shortcut to allow easier removal of the mount plate. you said that you retapped for larger bolts,
and it sounds like the leak has gotten worse since you started working on it....maybe some thread locker for sealant on those 2 bolts before ripping it all apart again?

Lee you may be onto something. I clearly had a leak, but not a fountain of oil, prior to my work on the bolts at the bottom of the timing cover. I just watched another video from the guy's that I posted above and saw the nuts that you are referring to in his video, what a dumb ass way to secure those bolts! Clearly the bolt that were previously used didn't have the nuts on them, which is highly likely given the previous owners rebuild that he had done.

When I tapped to the next larger bolt size, I did put a fair amount of RTV on the bolts as I installed them. I've been thinking that when I tightened them down I may have over tightened them, creating a larger leak if that plate is loose at all.

My plan is still to insert the dye, run for a few moments until I see the drip start, then look closer for a source. In my mind, I have already reconciled that I'm going to be disassembling the radiator, alternator, compressor, etc. to get to the timing cover. It's a mindless chore that I don't enjoy all that much, but its absolutely going to be necessary.

Thank you for all the input.

[dsraven]

if it leaks from the cover, do yourself a favor and take it apart. fix it right and be done. clean all the surfaces properly, use the gaskets if they are good and replace them with new if they are not. use a little gasket eliminator on the gaskets if you want. rtv is the bain od most good mechanics as it is a bandaid fix usually and will eventually come off and leak. "the right stuff" silicone sealer is the ONLY silicone I will use now. too many come backs over the years to be bothered with any of the other rtv silicones. even then I only use it when I can't get a gasket or if the gasket needs a dab in a corner, etc. yes, maybe this will be a big job in your eyes, but better than never parking in a friends driveway because of the embarrassing spot left behind, or always cleaning up that spot in your own parking area, or having a really nice kinda one of a kind rig that has an unrepaired oil leak.
if those gaskets are in the box of stuff left over then it would seem the previous owner didn't take the time to redo that part properly. might as well just fix it right and carry on.

[dsraven]

not sure on the gear removal thing but I think the crank gear gets to stay on because the steel plate has a big enough hole to get it past. the cam gear however.....
maybe just pull the cam.

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by dsraven

not sure on the gear removal thing but I think the crank gear gets to stay on because the steel plate has a big enough hole to get it past. the cam gear however.....
maybe just pull the cam.

Pulling the cam.....oh my I wonder if I will sleep tonight...LOL. for me that is a big job, but if it is what is necessary then I guess I'll have to go there. I hope not, but guess I'll see.

As for the previous owner, who I didn't know, he had purchased several different boxes of gaskets for various projects that his wife just scooped up and sold with the truck. There are gaskets that aren't even for this truck in that box.

Gonna pick up some of "The Right Stuff" tomorrow, one way or the other. Thanks!

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by dsraven

not sure on the gear removal thing but I think the crank gear gets to stay on because the steel plate has a big enough hole to get it past. the cam gear however.....
maybe just pull the cam.

Dumb question. If I have to, can I pull the camshaft without taking the valve cover off, taking the rocker arms off ,and pull the lifters?

[dsraven]

Pretty much gotta pull the valve cover to release the rocket arms and pull the pushrod so the lifters can be lifted up enough to get the cam lobes past the lifters. It may seem like a big overwhelming job but you just need to look at it as a bunch of little jobs placed back to back. Take stuff apart in sequence and place the parts in order of disassembly in cake pans, cookie sheets, cardboard boxes etc. Whatever you have that's clean and handy. I use a rag in the bottom so parts cant roll around and get mixed up. Remember that lifters wear to their cam lobe so keep those in order for sure. Same for pushrod in the lifter end and the rocker end so keep those oriented correctly and in order. Bolts are bolts but some may be specific lengths so always good to keep stuff set up in their order of disassembly. Have a large enough area set for storage so you can get the order of storage in sequence. Otherwise just think your way through and ask questions if you get stuck.
I still only use "the right stuff" sparingly. I also use a product called gasket eliminate which is made for a metal on metal seal. Still, if there is a gasket made I would rather use that. Cork gaskets are not high on my list of great items. Neoprene or formed silicone is good. Paper is usually better than cork in my book. Of course there will be those that disagree, lol.

[leegreen]

it seems the increase in the leak coincides with retapping those bolts,

A couple ideas:
-drilling and retapping the block you might have pulled some metal between plate and block, now it won't pull tight

-did you tap the plate too? if both pate and block are threaded it wont pull tight


If you do have to pull it apart I'd give some serious thought to dropping the pan and putting nuts onto those bolts. 2 bolts on like 8" centres into 1950s cast iron holding the front of a 600 pound engine from flopping side to side. I'm think the factory may have had a good reason to go to the expense of machining a flat inside that hole for the nut to sit on rather than just threading the hole.

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by leegreen

it seems the increase in the leak coincides with retapping those bolts,

A couple ideas:
-drilling and retapping the block you might have pulled some metal between plate and block, now it won't pull tight

-did you tap the plate too? if both pate and block are threaded it wont pull tight


If you do have to pull it apart I'd give some serious thought to dropping the pan and putting nuts onto those bolts. 2 bolts on like 8" centres into 1950s cast iron holding the front of a 600 pound engine from flopping side to side. I'm think the factory may have had a good reason to go to the expense of machining a flat inside that hole for the nut to sit on rather than just threading the hole.

Lee, I hesitate to say that great minds think alike, because that would be giving me far too much credit. But as I lay awake last night going over the sequence of events that lead to the leak getting worse, I kept coming back to taping the holes in the cover/block. I realized that I was so concerned about getting shavings from the tapping into the oil pan that I may not have tapped deep enough and only ending up tapping the cover. While the bolt offered some resistance when going in, not an excessive amount.

Your thought that the tapped bolt into the block caused the two pieces, timing cover and block to not match up properly. Either from shavings and or as they threaded, they were not flush and that created more of a gap.

My plan is to put the florescent dye into the oil tomorrow when it arrives, run the engine to get a drip, then trace the drip and I highly suspect it will show around the bottom of the timing cover around one or both of those bolts. Then the disassembly can begin, including the balancer and timing cover. I may very well end up doing as your also suggest of pulling the oil pan. That will likely be a challenger as the previous owner used a cork gasket and what looks like two tubes of RTV to seal it tight.....oh boy can't wait...

[dsraven]

before you start check availability of the required gaskets in a neoprene style for the pan, possibly a new front sels since it will have been disturbed a few times and they don't usually like that, pick up a small tube of "the right stuff" for the dabs in the corners, and then take it apart. before you install the pan get yourself some longer bolts the same size as the pan bolts and cut the heads off them, hacksaw a groove in the cut off end for a screwdriver to fit into and screw them into the 4 corners of the block so the pan can be slipped over them for good alignment. sometimes I use a stud actually so a nut can be screwed onto the end and the pan can hang there just below the gasket while you make sure everything is good first before pushing it up the last little bit. also, place the pan on a flat surface and use the round end of a ball pein hammer to sit over the bolt holes, then strike that gently with another hammer so the distroted area where the bolts have been sucked up can be made flat or slightly convex the other way. this helps to not cut the gasket in that area when the bolts are torqued down. I also use weatherstrip adhesive on the rubber end gaskets to hold them in place as i find the silicones and other liquid gasket type materials only seem to grease things up really good and then you never really know if the rubber part is intack or if it has squeezed out the one side or the other. it is like contact cement so it almost dries then you install it and the part stays put. some "right stuff" in the corners and good to go. sometimes I use the aviation form a gasket stuff along the block rails to hold those gaskets in place, it never really dries dut holds the gaskets pretty well for alignment, espcially if you have a few studs placed along to hold things where they should be.
LG could be exactly correct with his theory on your bolt holes. if you drilled or tapped the holes there is likely a burr on the inner edges of the flat steel part that is always left behind during these processes. it is likely not allowing the 2 parts to sit down flush against themselves.
when you get after it post up some pics of the leak found and also the tear down and repair. there is always somebody looking, now or later, that has the same questions or problems.

[leegreen]

If you tapped the cover and the block you will never be able to pull it tight, you need to drill the cover slightly oversize so it can pull tight. Use a drill stop or eyeball it but that hole needs to be bigger than the threads on the bolt

Sounds like dropping the pan is going to be required one way or another. You could consider doing that first, properly tap those holes or just drill them out and put on nuts from inside. Then put the pan back and fire it up to check the leak. Worse case you have to drop the pan a second time if you go the nut route - can see why tapping the block is attractive.
But you have a hoist right? And a spacious clean shop if your pictures are accurate - I am green with jealousy!

There are some tricks you can use to try and keep all the threading swarf from falling into the hole. I'm not sure I'd be confident enough to risk it with a bypass filter or no filter at all? and a valuable engine.

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by dsraven

before you start check availability of the required gaskets in a neoprene style for the pan, possibly a new front sels since it will have been disturbed a few times and they don't usually like that, pick up a small tube of "the right stuff" for the dabs in the corners, and then take it apart. before you install the pan get yourself some longer bolts the same size as the pan bolts and cut the heads off them, hacksaw a groove in the cut off end for a screwdriver to fit into and screw them into the 4 corners of the block so the pan can be slipped over them for good alignment. sometimes I use a stud actually so a nut can be screwed onto the end and the pan can hang there just below the gasket while you make sure everything is good first before pushing it up the last little bit. also, place the pan on a flat surface and use the round end of a ball pein hammer to sit over the bolt holes, then strike that gently with another hammer so the distroted area where the bolts have been sucked up can be made flat or slightly convex the other way. this helps to not cut the gasket in that area when the bolts are torqued down. I also use weatherstrip adhesive on the rubber end gaskets to hold them in place as i find the silicones and other liquid gasket type materials only seem to grease things up really good and then you never really know if the rubber part is intack or if it has squeezed out the one side or the other. it is like contact cement so it almost dries then you install it and the part stays put. some "right stuff" in the corners and good to go. sometimes I use the aviation form a gasket stuff along the block rails to hold those gaskets in place, it never really dries dut holds the gaskets pretty well for alignment, espcially if you have a few studs placed along to hold things where they should be.
LG could be exactly correct with his theory on your bolt holes. if you drilled or tapped the holes there is likely a burr on the inner edges of the flat steel part that is always left behind during these processes. it is likely not allowing the 2 parts to sit down flush against themselves.
when you get after it post up some pics of the leak found and also the tear down and repair. there is always somebody looking, now or later, that has the same questions or problems.

Excellent input, I appreciate it.

The reason I'm even reluctant to drop the oil pan is this. When I first got the truck, I knew the engine had been fully rebuilt, but not run for years (other than an occasional crank or two). I wanted to see the bottom end of the engine and inspect the oil pickup. I took all the pan bolts out (kept the corners in but very very loose) and tried to get the pan off the engine. When I said the previous owner was generous with his RTV, I wasn't kidding. The pan seemed glued to the engine with an edge of cork gasket and plenty of RTV showing along the edges. In the end, I decided I really didn't need to take the pan off and ended up bolting it all back up.

Now of course if I need to take the pan off to get to nuts for the lower timing cover bolts, I have no choice but to wrestle that pan off. Any good tricks for getting it fully removed will be appreciated.

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by leegreen

If you tapped the cover and the block you will never be able to pull it tight, you need to drill the cover slightly oversize so it can pull tight. Use a drill stop or eyeball it but that hole needs to be bigger than the threads on the bolt

Sounds like dropping the pan is going to be required one way or another. You could consider doing that first, properly tap those holes or just drill them out and put on nuts from inside. Then put the pan back and fire it up to check the leak. Worse case you have to drop the pan a second time if you go the nut route - can see why tapping the block is attractive.
But you have a hoist right? And a spacious clean shop if your pictures are accurate - I am green with jealousy!

There are some tricks you can use to try and keep all the threading swarf from falling into the hole. I'm not sure I'd be confident enough to risk it with a bypass filter or no filter at all? and a valuable engine.

Given that it is a 1959 261 cu/in engine, it has full oil filtering with a spin-on filter.

When I tapped the holes, I coated the end of the tap with grease (my trick for getting the shavings to not fall into the pan)

The shop is indeed a clean one (epoxied floors) and boy did I have a mess when I backed it out of a parking spot on the shop floor and moved it onto the four post lift. Holy crap I used a lot of shop rags and towels......LOL

I'm going to need new gaskets for the timing cover and the oil pan. The ones I posted a pic of are very thin paper and that doesn't give me much comfort. The ones I have for the pan are old cork ones that I honestly don't trust. Where is a good place to find quality new ones?

[TX3100Guy]

Is Fel-Pro a good gasket brand/type for the timing cover and oil pan? The pan gasket looks to be cork with four rubber sections for the ends. The timing cover looks to be the same paper that I already have.

[leegreen]

I've relied on felpro

I see OS 5153 C fits 235 and 261 so it is probably not hard to get

My engineer father always used permatex red brush on gasket sealer with cork gaskets and I always did the same. If you do both sides the gasket becomes single use. I'd check for any pan bolt holes with deformed edges as dsraven described

I notice felpro has a video on gasket sealers, didn't watch it though

[leegreen]

the only 261 I ever had was from a Canadian Pontiac and had no oil filter. Same as low option 235 powered cars got.

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by leegreen

the only 261 I ever had was from a Canadian Pontiac and had no oil filter. Same as low option 235 powered cars got.

I wonder if the Canadian version was different. I'm no expert but I thought one of the advantages of the 1959 version of 261 over the 216/235 was for better valve train oiling and full oil filtering. I could be wrong.

[leegreen]

No I think you are right, I googled it and the truck 261 had spin on full flow filter according to a couple results.

[dsraven]

here is a really handy tool for doing oil pan gaskets. screw them into the block, slip the gasket over them and it hangs there ready (or sticks to the aviation form a gasket) and then the oil pan snaps over top of them and hanges there until you are ready to push it up on the pins, which aligns the pan to the block. I have several of different sizes.

https://www.amazon.ca/Fel-Pro-ES-728...65cfd151f0873a

[leegreen]

permatex aviation form a gasket - that is the stuff! All I remembered was the brand name

I'm going to get a bottle just for old times sake!

[dsraven]

it used to be sold in a toothpaste style tube too but it is way thicker. the canned stuff has a brush inside the can lid so thats nice. the tubed stuff can be spread around with a cheap acid brush or similar. it is very difficult to get off so wear gloves.

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/p...w.ds#store=611

another good one that I use on metal to metal housing seals

https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...547969129,cs:1

another gasket glue style that works good to hold the gasket in place but doesn't really help the sealing effect in my opinion
https://jbspowercentre.com/products/...tXIzq_M8Eh5BZw
and, of course, the silicone style one. this is the only one I use for silicone when needed. buy a small tube because it goes hard in the container quickly once opened. I have used the pressurized can style before as well, but same deal. it goes bad quick


https://www.amazon.ca/Permatex%C2%AE...4cf87199b&th=1

don't think of your leak repair as a dreaded thing, just start and keep plugging along, soon you wll have it all figured out and if it has to come apart then just start the repair and take it a step at a time. soon you will be done and waiting for the sealer to dry so you can start it up again. i was gonna suggest to ask around if anybody you know has a snake camera that you could borrow but I was beat out, lol.
oh, and post your progress pics.

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by dsraven

don't think of your leak repair as a dreaded thing, just start and keep plugging along, soon you wll have it all figured out and if it has to come apart then just start the repair and take it a step at a time. soon you will be done and waiting for the sealer to dry so you can start it up again. i was gonna suggest to ask around if anybody you know has a snake camera that you could borrow but I was beat out, lol.
oh, and post your progress pics.

Words to live by!

Amazon should deliver the dye tomorrow, but they've been running late in the day due to so much holiday shopping. I'm guessing that I will input the dye on Wednesday morning, use the bore scope to confirm our collective opinion that its coming from those two lower timing cover bolts.

I suspect that most of Wednesday will be spent disassembling everything I need to remove to get to the timing cover. Based on my last attempt at removing the oil pan, that may be a Thursday task.

Funny, while I've been dreading starting this project, now I'm itching to get started (and done). Photos for sure as the work progresses.

[dsraven]

I'm glad to hear you are onboard with taking it apart and doing a proper repair rather than trying to goop it up with something. it will give you peace of mind and also add to the integrity of the truck if repairs are done properly. besides, you know you wanna, lol.
for cleaning the shop floor I use xsorb universal absorbent. it is what we used on our firetrucks to quickly pick up fluids from motor vehicle accidents. it is pretty fine so if you use it have the big garage doors closed because wind can stir it up and blow it everywhere. I keep it in a small bucket with a lid and have a scoop inside so its ready to go if I have an unexpected leak.

[dsraven]

when you pull the pan it is a good idea to drain the oil and let it sit overnight with the plug out so it can drip out as much as possible before the pan is removed. I usually try to put a big piece of cardboard under the unit when the pan is off just to absorb the rest of the drips. an old fridge box or a big tv box works well. tape the edges to the floor so you dont trip on them.