4bt cummins swap

[66Submarine]

Originally Posted by jmack91z28

Either way, this thread has completely taken a right hand turn from the OP's question haha.

Ahh the interwebz...

You got that one right! I actually had to go back and make sure this was the thread I thought it was. It all started so innocently...

[ky-donzi]

Are big over the road trucks going back to gas burners because of the increased hp numbers of modern engines?

[66LSx]

Originally Posted by ky-donzi

Are big over the road trucks going back to gas burners because of the increased hp numbers of modern engines?

I think most semi's are going back to carb'd 2-brl 292's....

ky-donzi... good to see ya! {4btswaps forum} (47Ford - 1.5ton)

[66Submarine]

Originally Posted by ky-donzi

Are big over the road trucks going back to gas burners because of the increased hp numbers of modern engines?

One. More. Time.

OTR trucks use diesel engines because they burn less fuel and run longer between overhauls compared to gasoline engines (at least generally). Giant gasoline engines had no problem pulling with NA diesels, but they consumed ungodly amounts of fuel and required more maintenance. Combine that with the rise of the turbocharger (what ACTUALLY makes the "diesel" power), and there was no reason to continue with giant gasoline engines. This isn't that hard of a concept to grasp if you know pretty much anything.

A very popular old-tyme diesel was the 220 Cummins; 743CID, 220HP @ something like 2,100RPM, and 600ftlbs @ 1,600RPM from what I can dig up.

Now, consider the 702CID GMC V12; 250HP @ 2,400RPM, and 585ftlbs @ 1,600RPM (net ratings--not sure about the Cummins).

So the torque is essentially the same, and HP is better. Both will be run wide-open, so the giant gas burner will pull better than the diesel will. It will also consume an ungodly amount of fuel doing so and not run as long, so the diesel makes more sense. Get it now?

One more quick note again; 292 is 153HP @ 3,600RPM, and 4BT is 105HP @ 2,300RPM; both make pretty much the same amount of torque.

So, I am going to repaint the tach so 3,600RPM reads as 2,300RPM, and I will run a 1.56:1 underdrive at the crank (or gear it deeper). Now at "2,300RPM" the 292 still is 50HP stronger, and I picked up over 140ftlbs or torque over "stock"/4BT; now making 400ftlbs. Wow, that was easy!

Torque is not power; just adding a 2:1 reduction at some point doubles torque. If that made trucks go, we'd all be set! But it doesn't in the real world. Why can't you guys do math? Is it against your religion or something?

Originally Posted by 66LSx

I think most semi's are going back to carb'd 2-brl 292's....

Free $100 to the first person to reply to me and disagree/prove me wrong using actual facts instead of myth and/or lamebrained attempts at being witty!

BTW, the 292 was a 1bbl carb deal, genius.

Here's a list of complete engines I have sitting around (off the top of my head), since I obviously think only a 292 is suitable for locomotion:

230
250 x 2 + parts
292 x 2
283
305 (I think a few?)
307
327
350's (several)
400
6.0LSx

Yeah, I obviously think nothing but a 292 exists. Come up with some new insults. (Or maybe even actually reply to what I'm saying for a change?)

BTW, here's another picture of that "12V" head; guess being left out in the rain made it generate some extra valves.

I guess I know how the guy felt that tried telling people the Earth wasn't flat!

[66LSx]

Originally Posted by 66Submarine

One. More. Time.

OTR trucks use diesel engines because they burn less fuel and run longer between overhauls compared to gasoline engines (at least generally).

Oh... you mean perform the same/better per in^3, better MPG, and last longer.... gotcha


PS: Your signature website is no longer available
The requested URL /www.66submarine.com</b> was not found on this or any server.

JK JK... but no really.. with you having it in bold... it really won't work in your sig.... remove the bold

your welcome (hopefully you haven't had it in bold that long and no one has said anything)

[66Submarine]

Originally Posted by 66LSx

Oh... you mean perform the same/better per in^3, better MPG, and last longer.... gotcha


PS: Your signature website is no longer available
The requested URL /www.66submarine.com</b> was not found on this or any server.

JK JK... but no really.. with you having it in bold... it really won't work in your sig.... remove the bold

your welcome (hopefully you haven't had it in bold that long and no one has said anything)

You really do know everything, don't you? And you're so nice! How do you manage all that at once?

Again, a stupid picture doesn't make you any smarter (and it doesn't make it seem that way, either). How about actually responding to some of the accusations you made (or your lack of a basic understanding of physics/math) before the victory lap, buddy?

I NEVER said the diesel stuff sucked (or even inferred it) in any of my posts; I actually went out of my way to try to insure mental weaklings like yourself didn't think that was what I was saying. You took issue when I used actual information and math instead of shouting "TORK!!! WOOO!!!", and you started name calling like a little kid who wanted to pretend (or thinks?) he's really "cool" and smart.

I said I don't think it's what many make it out to be, and I stand by that; my opinion remains unchanged by your immature BS.

I'd thank you for letting me know about the link that I messed up a couple days ago (didn't check it; needed to update the site anyway, and I haven't got around to it), but I'm pretty sure you just found out because you wanted to go there to try to find something personal to use against me, since you know your argument is fundamentally BS at this point and you don't want to look like the idiot you've made yourself out to be. (All the name calling, not understanding math--that stuff.)

BTW, you've still not made one actual reply yet; keep up the good work, internet tough-guy!

You have a good un, too.

[66Submarine]

BTW, I messed up the formatting; hit "bold" before the "URL" button during an edit somehow. You can have a bold URL link...

[1972RedNeck]

Originally Posted by 66Submarine

Reason seems to suggest that just jacking up a 4BT to 300HP and beating on it will greatly shorten its lifespan; the marine 250HP versions that supposedly have lots of reliability problems also hint to this.

So you ran @ 200HP for 2,500 miles and actually messed something up, but you plan to beat on it @ 300HP and have it last?

Anyway, do you mean you want a 300HP engine you can tow a 500lb 5'x8' utility trailer with once a year, or a 300HP engine you can actually hook something heavy up to and hold it wide-open climbing a steep hill with regularity? Not really the same thing.

BTW, you mention:

Well, an old guy from Texas on another board used to run a '59 (IIRC) GMC tandem axle road tractor with an Oldsmobile 371 V8; he said he pretty much ran wide open all day and kept it @ 3,800-4,200RPM. He also said he went 100,000 miles between rebuilds running like that, and it was still a good running engine when he later wrecked the truck.

One last time; I'M NOT HATING ON DIESEL ENGINES!!! All I said is that I think the modern lore embellishes on reality to some degree. I actually do like them, but they are not some kind of magical mechanical unicorns that are beyond human comprehension. Is that not OK? Really?

If you want to have a 300HP 4BT just to say you do/can, great! Nothing wrong with that, and I never said there was.

I'm not disagreeing with you. 401/478 v6's and 637 v8's and 702's were advertised to run 200,000 miles between overhauls. They pull fantastic and drink like an alcoholic.

As for towing, I only tow about 15% of my driven miles. When I do tow, it is always at least 25,000 lbs. I am going to try to make it so I can hold it to the floor and never let up.

[66Submarine]

Yeah, those comments were really intended for the other guys; I was just using that as an example more than anything (sorry if I came across as coming after you--my bad there). You seem like you understand that you are asking for a lot out of the little 4 cylinder, and that it will cost money to get it to live like that. Nothing wrong with wanting to push the limits on a hotrod project to see what can be done/if it can be done, but just be realistic with the expectations--that's the point I was trying to get across.

[Dieselwrencher]

Wow, all that to show a 4bt will run at or above 200hp for any given amount of time? Holly molly. I didn't realize this was 4btswaps or that uber c***insforum?

66submarine, do you do all of Ashley Black's machine work?

[66Submarine]

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

Wow, all that to show a 4bt will run at or above 200hp for any given amount of time? Holly molly. I didn't realize this was 4btswaps or that uber c***insforum?

66submarine, do you do all of Ashley Black's machine work?

Yeah, I'm not really sure why this thread spun out the way it did (the magic of the internet, I guess...).

It's actually the place my father works at that does most of the machine work (I've done a little bit up there, but I'm waiting for some stuff to settle/get sorted out before I start really doing anything there myself); he does the intake mod to the heads at the home shop.

[Dieselwrencher]

Originally Posted by 66Submarine

Yeah, I'm not really sure why this thread spun out the way it did (the magic of the internet, I guess...).

It's actually the place my father works at that does most of the machine work (I've done a little bit up there, but I'm waiting for some stuff to settle/get sorted out before I start really doing anything there myself); he does the intake mod to the heads at the home shop.

Nice. Too bad you weren't closer. I've got a few heads I'd like to get whacked.

[1972RedNeck]

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

Wow, all that to show a 4bt will run at or above 200hp for any given amount of time? Holly molly. I didn't realize this was 4btswaps or that uber c***insforum?

I still don't see why running a 4BT over 200 HP is any different than running a 6BT over 300 HP - which I along with many others have successfully done - but everybody says that they can't do it. Maybe they can't and I've just spent too much time on CompD where they have 500 HP 4BT's.

[Dieselwrencher]

We've worked on two 4bts in mid 90s chevy 3/4 tons and they are over 200hp,actually one 255 and one 288 on a chassis dyno, and they have been for years. I wouldn't be afraid of it at all.

[Ed ke6bnl]

I am pretty sure my choice of motors for my 53 pu on an S10 frame will be the 4bt, In So. California I have been seeing a lot of motors with the ford trans 4 speed T19 whats the thoughts on that trans.

[66LSx]

T19 has been a ford truck staple from 1968 thru 1991. Plentiful, strong... And it's a top loader.... Cheap to rebuild if ever. Not going to go anywhere fast or do any speed shifting tho

[truckeez]

"Torque is only a measurement of force, which does nothing without speed; speed x force = HP."

^^^^^^^^^^^
there are -a - mixed up dude (s) here, torque is what gets a truck going from a start, (and also is what delights ricky racers in their 5/0 mustangs with a stick) ,
NOT HP.
hp is ONLY a measurement of what an engine can do up above 2500 rpm, and dosent factor in while getting up there.
the wierdo 4bt craze is just that.... 1000$ i dont think so unless someone is doing some serious inet scrownging and swapping spare junk to get there (but -No , not including a modded pump---NO Way).
you start adding the cost of sourcing the correct back plate you have to have and the flywheel that it didn't come with and ,,,, oh yea that damn outfit called advanced adaptors just wont sell those bits at a giveaway price,

Plus the hemeroid surgery from the butt sore cringing syndrome of not only driving something so equipped after going into that much hock--just to be in with the latest oddball IN crowd. oh and lets not forget The attempts to sell the project off to some new guy to the crazee 4bt thing because you realize its just too damn rough to use in anything,,, there is a durango equipped one someone could get for .....


and last but not least the dentist bill to have the fillings replaced.
hey lets get a s10 frame and an old heap from the farmers tree row and build a _real_ truck!!

[66Submarine]

Originally Posted by truckeez

^^^^^^^^^^^
there are -a - mixed up dude (s) here

I don't think you know just how true that is...

torque is what gets a truck going from a start, (and also is what delights ricky racers in their 5/0 mustangs with a stick) ,
NOT HP.
hp is ONLY a measurement of what an engine can do up above 2500 rpm, and dosent factor in while getting up there.

I think that is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Really? HP = torque x RPM / 5252. The idea of it somehow not being able to be used as a measurement under 2,500RPM is absolutely beyond ridiculous. It's really basic math that anyone with three functioning brain cells can understand very well. But don't listen to me, just google it for yourself.

I guess parroting the same stupid BS and attacking anything remotely resembling thought is fun though, right?

Low-end power is what actually moves the Mustang you mention, and is why a lot of people cannot seem to grasp this basic concept.

Twice the torque @ 1,000RPM=twice the HP @ 1,000RPM.

You guys are all confusing this with peak HP numbers and peak TQ numbers (etc). Torque is only a measurement of force, not anything more or less, and without motion/HP you go nowhere.

Again, let me make another example. I will put a 2:1 reduction drive between my lame 250 six and the trans tomorrow, instantly giving me 440ftlbs at the new "crank". Will it pull harder in high gear? You bet! But wait...now I need to replace my 4.10 gears with 2.05's. End result? Same damn thing (forgetting about the loss from the reduction gears).

The rest of the driveline needs to be matched with whatever engine you use. DZ302 with 2.56 rear gears and a PG with a tight converter? It's going to suck at getting itself rolling. You'll also be disappointed if you take your 4BT with 5.13's to Bonneville. This isn't hard to figure out.

Anyway, I'm done here. Even I have much better things to do with my time than try to teach basic math to people so hard-headed that they refuse to even consider it. You win, guys. Go take a victory lap...

[6BT 56]

I'm confused ? Is there actually sumone building a 4 bt old truck here ? If So bring on the build . Sounds cool. All this back and forth make's me think I'm on pirate 4x4 , or what ever that other website is called. they spend more time there hacking your build than anything else .

[truckeez]

Originally Posted by 6BT 56

I'm confused ? Is there actually sumone building a 4 bt old truck here ? If So bring on the build . Sounds cool. All this back and forth make's me think I'm on pirate 4x4 , or what ever that other website is called. they spend more time there hacking your build than anything else .

And if they are building a 4bt powered something.....
Hopefully they are using a viable frame,, rather than ignoring the obvious and lieing to onesself you can just mount it in a little tiny 1/4 ton (in reality) frame designed for a 450 lb motor max, anyone thinking you can just swap out some springs in a s10 frame and mount a rock crushing vibrator thats damn near 900 is nuts.

[Dieselwrencher]

I also say build something or beat it.

I must be a fool for putting a rattle trap POS 6bt in a Corvette too. No way that frame can handle all that rattly torque stuff.

[1972RedNeck]

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

I also say build something or beat it.

I must be a fool for putting a rattle trap POS 6bt in a Corvette too. No way that frame can handle all that rattly torque stuff.

Originally Posted by truckeez

the wierdo 4bt craze is just that.... 1000$ i dont think so unless someone is doing some serious inet scrownging and swapping spare junk to get there (but -No , not including a modded pump---NO Way).
you start adding the cost of sourcing the correct back plate you have to have and the flywheel that it didn't come with and ,,,, oh yea that damn outfit called advanced adaptors just wont sell those bits at a giveaway price,

Plus the hemeroid surgery from the butt sore cringing syndrome of not only driving something so equipped after going into that much hock--just to be in with the latest oddball IN crowd. oh and lets not forget The attempts to sell the project off to some new guy to the crazee 4bt thing because you realize its just too damn rough to use in anything,,, there is a durango equipped one someone could get for .....


and last but not least the dentist bill to have the fillings replaced.
hey lets get a s10 frame and an old heap from the farmers tree row and build a _real_ truck!!

I've got my 4BT up and running. It makes the stock 7.3 (180 hp) look like a turd. EGT's won't go over 950 and boost runs about 50 lbs. Just a "crazee 4bt thing" I guess.

As far as the vibration, I used liquid filled engine isolators and there is hardly any vibration or shake.

[Dieselwrencher]

Glad to hear you got yours going. Do you have a build thread on here anywhere?

[1972RedNeck]

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

Glad to hear you got yours going. Do you have a build thread on here anywhere?

Over on FTE I do. Fords aren't the most admired vehicles over here.

[muffintop]

What are all the alternatives to a 4bt? That get around 20~30 mpg and are diesel.

so far i got 4-53 Detroit

im sure a lsx or newer diesel can provide higher power and torque. but im looking for a dependable, fully mechanical and realtivly decent mileage diesel.