Complete T5 swap thread - one way to skin the cat

[jocko]

Originally Posted by RdoubleU

Hoping Jocko and the experienced others can chime in and help clarify some things for me:

I have a 1968 C10 with a 3 speed Saginaw column shift 250 I6

Gear ratio is 3.42 with 29" Tall Tire

I am in the same debate with myself as I have seen across Jocko's numerous posts and research threads: To Go T5 vs TKO 500/600

Regarding the T5: I have only been able to locate the S10 T5's that are Non-WC and have the below gearing
1352-201 GM 1990 S-Truck P 1st-4.03 2.37 1.49 1.00 5th-0.86

I am concerned that low of a 1st gear will just disappoint me and be almost useless - Anyone have any comment with this low first gear or the 3.76 options usability

OD @ 70 I should be in the ball park of 2300-2500 (Which I have read the 250 operating range you want to shoot for is 2000-3000) Does this seem like a good area to be in?

I also have some additional questions about the parts needed for the T5:
- What bellhousing hole diameter should the 1968 model truck have?
- is it the 4.686" dia index ring or the 5.125" index ring on a 250

- Flywheel: You keep and use the stock flywheel for your truck?

- Clutch / Pressure Plate / Throwout bearing: I'm alittle confused on these parts I have seen the mention for Astro Van clutch in multiple threads on here and the HAMB
Jocko recommends using the entire Astro kit for a V8 flywheel
Will this same situation apply for the 250 I6 flywheel
Or is it the other situation where I should go with the kit from the vehicle the transmission came from

Spacer Plate and Bearing Retainer Mods: I understand the need for these
- I was planning on Hot Rod Works spacer plate depending on what diameter bellhousing I have
- http://www.hotrodworks.com/catalog/i...1983-cars.html

I am really trying to debate whether i should move forward with the S10 T5 or go ahead and invest in the TKO and the future upgrade possibility.

The 250 is a strong motor and I plan on keeping it, but eventually ( i dont know when) down the road I think i would upgrade to a LS but that part is not top priority on the build list

Jocko Mentions he has about $1k in his swap vs the $3k mark for a TKO
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=473871

Getting alittle intimidated and lost in all the small details

-------------------
Below is an rpm comparison for you with your prospective T5's specs (and 29" tire). My T5 had a 3.97 1st gear with a 3.73, so almost the same final drive ratio for 1st gear. This was a BIG concern for me, but it turned out to be not that big of a deal. I could start off in 2nd, but for me personally, 1st gear is what I normally used - I had to shift pretty soon after starting - about 3/4 of the way thru a big intersection, for example, but it was ok for me. For your tastes, you'll have to judge for yourself, but it was less of a problem than I thought it would be.

I'm not sure which bell housing index ring is stock for a 68 - but if it is the large one, you can use one of these to correct the problem (i.e. the good news is that the T5 has the smaller dia, so you can adapt): http://www.advanceadapters.com/produ...-down-to-4686/ (it's an index ring reducer from Advance Adapters - $25).

I bought a new stock flywheel for the engine I was putting it onto (a 283 in my case). Probably need to have someone confirm that your I6 has the same or both bolt patterns on its flywheel before buying. An I6 guy on here could probably answer that - I don't want to say that the Astro Van pressure plate will bolt directly to the stock I6 fly if I'm not sure of it. it is NOT the case that you should buy a flywheel to match what the trans came from - that's not relevant. The key is two-fold:
a) the flywheel must be able to bolt to your crank, and
b) the pressure plate you buy must be able to bolt to your flywheel (and the clutch disk and release bearing should be matched to the pressure plate - that's why I recommend a kit)

The spacer plate you posted a link to is a nice one. This one also works (and the Vintage Metalworks guy is very helpful and informative if you have specific application questions): http://vintagemetalworks.blogspot.co...ter-plate.html

My advice: might consider continue searching for a different T5 (if you choose the T5 route), because the .86 o/d is not a lot of bang for the buck (BUT, keep in mind that a 3.42 is already a very highway friendly cruising gear, so this might not be a bad thing after all....). While the 4.03 1st gear doesn't sound ideal, it's doable with a 3.42 rear gear. What you have will work - but I'd only do it if you are comfortable with the 1st gear and cruising rpms you see in the table below.

However, if you plan on hot-doggin the future LS at all, I'd also recommend skipping the non-WC (or even a WC) T5 and save the 1-time pennies for a TKO. Any T5 won't last long if you like to dump the clutch and do burnouts. Hope that helps!

[jocko]

Originally Posted by 66redw/white

jocko i just gotta say i finally got to drive my truck with the t5 swap. fantastic write up again. im really diggin on this 5 speed!

Glad it worked out for you! It is a very fun combo to drive once it's all installed. Congrats!

[Lugnutz65]

To Jocko and all who read this wonderful post.

A friendly word of warning, SOME OF THE POPULAR T5 INTERNET SITES ARE STILL FULL OF INACCURATE INFORMATION.

As for me, I'm totally sold on the idea of putting a T5 in my 1965 C10 with a 3.73 rear.
Yesterday, I went to the salvage yard and pulled a T5 from a 1989 GMC15. Info that I had from the internet confirmed that it had the gearing I wanted. Unfortunately, I've come to learn that the internet info is VERY UNRELIABLE when it comes to telling you what the gears inside are.

A majority of the websites said the tranny I had pulled had a 3.76 1st gear and a 0.72 OD gear. WRONG. Got it home, opened it up and spun the tailshaft a full turn and watched the input shaft turn a good bit more than 3/4 turn. So I actually have a 0.86 OD and that just will not be good enough for my 3.73 rear.

I can return the tranny and get a refund. I wasted some time but I got some experience and knowledge along the way. Just trying to help my fellow truck owners so they can be spared from the same frustration.

[RdoubleU]

Thanks for the follow-up Jocko, you've been a big help with all your posts and along with the How To for your experience

I was able to source a Camaro T5 main case with the .73 OD and a S10 rear shaft so that is the route I am going and believe the improved OD is going to work out well for my motor and gear setup. As Jocko mentioned .86 is almost not worth the trouble and another option I found was a .63 OD but the rpm would have been too low at legal cruising speeds for a carb'd motor to avoid stuttering

I have been working behind the scenes with Lugnutz and we have both contacted some very knowledgeable people with a lot of accurate data under their belt from swaps and conducting business around the T5

So what Lugnutz says is true, just do your due diligence and research and you will be able to weed out the Lies from the Facts. I now know too much about T5's

[padresag]

Originally Posted by Lugnutz65

To Jocko and all who read this wonderful post.

A friendly word of warning, SOME OF THE POPULAR T5 INTERNET SITES ARE STILL FULL OF INACCURATE INFORMATION.

As for me, I'm totally sold on the idea of putting a T5 in my 1965 C10 with a 3.73 rear.
Yesterday, I went to the salvage yard and pulled a T5 from a 1989 GMC15. Info that I had from the internet confirmed that it had the gearing I wanted. Unfortunately, I've come to learn that the internet info is VERY UNRELIABLE when it comes to telling you what the gears inside are.

A majority of the websites said the tranny I had pulled had a 3.76 1st gear and a 0.72 OD gear. WRONG. Got it home, opened it up and spun the tailshaft a full turn and watched the input shaft turn a good bit more than 3/4 turn. So I actually have a 0.86 OD and that just will not be good enough for my 3.73 rear.

I can return the tranny and get a refund. I wasted some time but I got some experience and knowledge along the way. Just trying to help my fellow truck owners so they can be spared from the same frustration.

that truch is 24 years old .it is quite possible that someone could have already changed it will a used one???????
ron

[Lugnutz65]

Originally Posted by padresag

that truch is 24 years old .it is quite possible that someone could have already changed it will a used one???????
ron

padresag,
Each tranny has an ID tag. The tranny I pulled had all the proper tags and they were readable. That is the BEST way to identify a tranny. However, several VERY popular links on the internet gave INCORRECT gearing ratio information when I matched up the ID tag with their charts.

Bottom line, VERIFY EVERYTHING by CHECKING THINGS YOURSELF. Some guy says he has a tranny for sale with such and such gearing. Fine. He's probably basing his information on one of the websites I used AND HE COULD BE WRONG. That will be true for eBay, CL, or a swap meet.

Just imagine how frustrated I'd be after installing my tranny if I had not found out the TRUE gear ratio. I'd have wasted big money and time all because of misinformation.

Just be sure to verify everything yourself, and not based on some website chart. Am I preaching? Yep!

[brokenspoke]

I read it on the internet so it has to be true

[jocko]

Originally Posted by Lugnutz65

padresag,
Each tranny has an ID tag. The tranny I pulled had all the proper tags and they were readable. That is the BEST way to identify a tranny. However, several VERY popular links on the internet gave INCORRECT gearing ratio information when I matched up the ID tag with their charts.

Bottom line, VERIFY EVERYTHING by CHECKING THINGS YOURSELF. Some guy says he has a tranny for sale with such and such gearing. Fine. He's probably basing his information on one of the websites I used AND HE COULD BE WRONG. That will be true for eBay, CL, or a swap meet.

Just imagine how frustrated I'd be after installing my tranny if I had not found out the TRUE gear ratio. I'd have wasted big money and time all because of misinformation.

Just be sure to verify everything yourself, and not based on some website chart. Am I preaching? Yep!

Thanks Lugnutz, you're exactly right - never trust the tag unless you know the original source. That's what some of the discussions earlier in this thread were all about - the tags are easily moved from trans to trans, so are therefore useless. And the casting numbers are not indicators of what's inside at all. And not every internet listing is 100% correct. When is that ever the case? However, one has to start somewhere in knowing what to at least look for - and the online stuff is pretty much all that is available - but just one piece of the info bubble. The best source I have found of the many that exist is posted in the first few reference posts. I had never seen them all in one place, so that was the goal - to provide some background info for folks to decide on their own. Even though I bought a complete trans with an intact tag (supposedly), I still had to calculate the ratios for each gear when I got home. It is advisable to calculate 1st and 5th onsite before you decide to buy - and to do that you need to actually have a shifter attached - all you need is a piece of tape, a sharpie, and the ability to shift/know which gear you are in - just compare input vs. output shaft revolutions. It is a given that you don't trust tags or just any internet post on ANYthing, not just transimissions. But, as we've discussed on the forum before, T5s especially are notorious for not being correct because the tags are so easily detachable and transferrable and because there are so many sources available online, a wikipedia of T5 info, if you will - so, to answer your question, yes, you are preaching. I think the point is valid and it should be obvious. Thanks for reminding everyone to be careful though - very important to buy stuff like this with eyes wide open.

[Lugnutz65]

Just to add to the story - not to beat a dead horse.
The tranny I pulled had a readable sticker with bar code on top (covered with grease) as well as a readable tag (after I soaked it in naval jelly) that matched. I'm as sure as anyone can be that it was an unmolested tranny.

I am convinced that the charts on the various websites are NOT reliable - as has already been stated.

I've talked to a lot of people selling T5s. They all tell me that the one they are selling has such and such gears "because I looked it up on the internet". Maybe the charts are 99% accurate, or maybe only 60%, who knows?

As for me, I will NOT believe any info about the internal gears in a T5 UNLESS I have turned the shafts myself and/or inspected the inside. How many people selling a T5 will let you open it and inspect? (a retorical question)
It makes buying a T5 a rather big step of faith unless you turn the shafts and count the turns yourself.

I might sound angry, but I'm not. I'm just waving the flag so people pay attention. People are basically honest, but honest sellers are unknowingly relying on the internet charts to figure out what gears their tranny has. Then honest buyers are using the same internet info to verify the seller's info. We all have to be more careful.

[BAT]

So the million dollar question is how do I tell what I actually have it I can not rely on the tag? I actually have 3 of these in the shop and sure would be nice to know what they really are.

[Lugnutz65]

Originally Posted by BAT

So the million dollar question is how do I tell what I actually have it I can not rely on the tag? I actually have 3 of these in the shop and sure would be nice to know what they really are.

Here is what I did - quick and easy and probably accurate enough to help decide what the 1st and OD gears are.

1. With the tranny out of the vehicle, shift it into 5th gear.
2. Place tape on the input and output shaft and mark each shaft with a line at the 12 o'clock position.
3. Hand turn the output shaft (tailshaft) exactly one turn.
4. Look to see how far the input shaft turned. If more than 3/4 turn then the OD gear is 0.86 (although 0.78 is also possible in a Ford tranny), very very close to 3/4 turn would be the 0.72 OD gear. A 0.63 OD would be midway between 1/2 and 3/4 turns.
5. Do the same procedure with the shifter in 1st gear, but you must keep a closer eye on the input shaft so you don't miss a turn. You can improve accuracy in calculating 1st gear by turning the tailshaft 10 complete revolutions, and then dividing the input shaft revolutions by a factor of 10. i.e. 10 tailshaft turns caused 40 input shaft turns, so 40/10= 4, so you have a 4.03 1st gear.

I told a tranny shop what the tooth count was on the input shaft gear and a few other gears, and he told me what I had by doing some math. Sorry, but I don't know what his method was.

[Lugnutz65]

OK, so I now have a way to calculate 1st and 5th gear ratios if you already have the case open.

There will be 2 rows of gears. One row (gears A, B, and C) will be in line with the input and output shafts. The second row (X, Y, and Z)will be lower down in the case and slightly over towards the passenger side.

Please refer to the photo below which shows the inside of my T5. I showed a version of this photo to a tranny shop. He made calculations and told me what the gears were for 1st and 5th.

Follow this procedure:
X divided by A times B divided by Y = 1st gear ratio
which is 37 divided by 21 times 32 divided by 14 = 4.03 first gear

For 5th gear:
X divided by A times C divided by Z = 5th gear ratio
which is 37 divided by 21 times 25 divided by 51 = 0.86 fifth gear

[dantimdad]

A little background before I ask a question: My truck had a T5 in it when I bought it. It worked perfectly. I tore the truck down completely and am doing a frame off restomod.

Now, I am about to reassemble the drive train. There is no adapter plate on the trans to bellhousing.

Why does it work well? I thought you had to have a plate.

I am going to reassemble it just like it was. I am just curious.

Oh, the trans number says it's out of an 86 Camaro.


Steven

[Lugnutz65]

Originally Posted by dantimdad

A little background before I ask a question: My truck had a T5 in it when I bought it. It worked perfectly. I tore the truck down completely and am doing a frame off restomod.

Now, I am about to reassemble the drive train. There is no adapter plate on the trans to bellhousing.

Why does it work well? I thought you had to have a plate.

I am going to reassemble it just like it was. I am just curious.

Oh, the trans number says it's out of an 86 Camaro.


Steven

I am a student of the T5, and not a tranmission expert. However, as I read, I am amazed at some of the new things I learn each day.
If your T5 is a world class and has an input shaft from a V8 F body car, then it will not need the plate adapter (I think ).

I have also seen non world class replacement input shafts that are shorter and can be swapped for the original S10 input shaft to make the S10 NWC tranny bolt right up to the original bellhousing.

I would think that whoever installed your T5 knew these tricks and decided against using the adaptor plate, but used other options that work as well.

Just curious, does your T5 use a center hole spacer to adapt from a 5 and 1/8" hole to a 4 and 11/16" hole?

[oldtrux]

the camaro/f body t5 has the perfect length input shaft and does not need an adapter plate.the t5's that need an adapter plate are out of an s10 (longer shaft)the f body world class t5's are from 88-92

[jocko]

oldtrux is correct. F-body T5s need no adapter to accomodate input shaft length - however, if you want to fit them into a bench seat truck, it requires and S10 tailshaft housing in order to have the stick come through the floor in the proper location, that's all. An F-body WC T5 with an S10 tailshaft housing is the ideal combo that requires the least modifications to install. But, most folks can't afford to buy 2 transmissions to make 1 and the S10 tailshaft housings are getting harder and harder to come by. So, on a truck that won't be flogged, installing an S10 trans, which is normally not a WC (although they did make some WC S10 transmissions, '93, I believe) with a spacer plate is the most cost effective approach. If you have buckets, you can install an F-body T5 without any changes at all, no problema.

[Lugnutz65]

Originally Posted by jocko

So, on a truck that won't be flogged, installing an S10 trans, which is normally not a WC (although they did make some WC S10 transmissions, '93, I believe) with a spacer plate is the most cost effective approach. If you have buckets, you can install an F-body T5 without any changes at all, no problema.

The 92 and earlier S10 T5 trannys are all NWC.
The 93 through 95 S10 T5 trannys are WC BUT they all had the FORD case design and will not bolt to the Chevy factory bell.
Like Jocko said, a WC T5 with the correct S10 tailhousing will need to be a hybrid.

[jocko]

My trans is an original 93 S10 WC, and it does not have the ford bell pattern.

Bottom line is the buyer needs to educate themselves sufficiently before they buy to know what it is they are looking at and looking for - and not just rely on numbers. Numbers can mislead and resources are obviously not always correct.

To reiterate what's in the beginning of the thread, if T5 shopping, it's a good idea to understand the following concepts:

- WC vs non-WC and how to identify the difference visually (and whether or not that's even important to you - to me, it was not, but I got lucky).
- S10 vs F-body tailshaft housing and how it affects shifter location
- S10 vs F-body input shaft length (S10 T5 presents a problem, but it's easily solved with a spacer)
- Speedo: mech or electronic - I tried to make sure the trans I bought had a mech speedo connection. The alternative can be resolved, but it takes a little work, that's all.
- available 1st gear and o/d ratios and what they are worth to you (.72 vs .86, etc).

Those are the basics of T5 shopping, any can be made to work, but some present more problems than others. Not all 93 WC S10 trannys had the Ford bell pattern yet - so, did the factory cut over mid-year? Or some other weirdness? Who knows, but the bottom line is to know what you need by gathering as much info as you can (without believing it blindly) so you can shop informed - and avoid surprises later when you're assembling the combo.

[BAT]

Originally Posted by jocko

- Speedo: mech or electronic - I tried to make sure the trans I bought had a mech speedo connection. The alternative can be resolved, but it takes a little work, that's all.

My truck came with a F body T-5 and a S10 tail housing, the issue here is that the speedo gear too far back for the S10 housing. This is easily resolved by making a shim and moving the gear forward (7-1/2" from the end). I just did this yesterday and works great.

I now have a spare NWC T-5 with mechanical speedo gear/electronic tail housing as well as a full NWC w/mechanical out that will be showing up in the classifieds shortly.

[Dano0579]

I am wanting to put a Borg Warner T5 5 speed transmission in my 62 Chevy truck. Does anyone close to Alabama have one for sale? I have looked in the classifies and could not find one. Thanks

[dantimdad]

Check Pitts in Athens.

They have a ton of manual trans in a shed by the office.

Steven

[Dano0579]

Originally Posted by dantimdad

Check Pitts in Athens.

They have a ton of manual trans in a shed by the office.

Steven

Thanks dantimdad, I will call them tomorrow.

[66 C10 383]

Speaking of verifying, I need to verify the info I have is correct.

I've got a Tremec Aftermarket T56 which was designed by Borg Warner to be a replacement for the F-body T5 before all the TKO's and such came about. It bolts to the same bell that fits an f-body T5. I believe these are also the same as the Muncie 4 speed bells, correct?

Is the stock 66 C10 (6 cyl motor currently) bellhousing center hole the same as both these other bells? I think I read the other 4 attaching bolt holes are the same. I know the 6 cyl bell will also fit the small block engines.

If so, then my aftermarket T56 should just bolt right in. I do plan on removing the bellhousing crossmember using just the bell and adding a rear crossmember due to the added weight (at least 150 lbs) of the T56.

Here's a couple pics of what I have.

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/v...86-000-011.jpg

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/v...rmarketT56.jpg


Thanks for any clarification.

Doug

[brokenspoke]

Originally Posted by Lugnutz65

The 92 and earlier S10 T5 trannys are all NWC.
The 93 through 95 S10 T5 trannys are WC BUT they all had the FORD case design and will not bolt to the Chevy factory bell.
Like Jocko said, a WC T5 with the correct S10 tailhousing will need to be a hybrid.

I have a S 10 WC t-5 with a Chevy bolt pattern

[Lugnutz65]

Originally Posted by brokenspoke

I have a S 10 WC t-5 with a Chevy bolt pattern

Yes, I will retract my earlier statement about the S10 not having a WC tranny. Apparently some did. I am again the victim of wrong info that I have read on the web. Jocko says his 93 S10 T5 is a WC also. I am planning a web page on my BLOG that will contain helpful info for folks who have questions about the T5. I just bought a 1988 V8 Camaro WC T5. I'm posting photos on my BLOG that show it side by side with a GMC S15 NWC T5 just so people can see the differences.
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