57 Panel "FAKMLC" build

[FAKKY]

On the thread rod linkage for transmission.
It DOES rub on the NSS ..... so for now I went with a spacer using a couple of nuts.



Works well and JUST clears in all positions.

[dsraven]

for the rad to water pump clearance, it boils down to having enough clearance for an electric fan.
for the 3 deg down at the rear,it can be off some. the reasons are for carbed engines, yes, but a lot of those engines had an angled carm mount cast into the intake manifold to compensate for that. the 3 deg down is also for driveline angles as well. u joints work best up to 3 deg and then after that they still work but put more stress on the u joints and other parts. they will need a 1 deg variance from a dead straight line because otherwise the needle bearings don't move on the joint trunions and this causes brinnelling. https://spicerparts.com/anglemaster/measuring-angles the engine down at 4 deg will work but ensure your pinion angle is also up 4 deg to match. a vibration will haunt you otherwise. if using a leaf spring rear suspension there is also spring wind up to consider, depending on the engine torque and the spring stiffness. this affects pinion angle under high torque so if you start out on the edge of being right it could easily wind up enough to cause a shudder under load (like a lot of lifted 4x4's get due to spring block style lifts that allow the diff to move more). google it for more info.
if you only have 1/4" clearance between your engine pulley and the steering rack fitting then you may wanna rethink it for just a bit more clearance. the engine is going to move some as it torques up under power and decelleration and can also move up and down a bit over speed bumps, pot holes etc. those things that seem to suddenly appear when driving and you have no choice but to blast through. the engine mounts can also wear and sag a bit from heat and use over time. 1/4" is really not that much clearance if you factor in any wiggle room. the rack is also rubber mounted (I think) so it can move a bit under load (like dry steering in a parking lot)
for the shift linkage you could use a bent rod idea and/or some spacers on both ends of the linkage. use some threaded rod to practice for cheap then when you get it right bend the "good" rod

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by dsraven

for the rad to water pump clearance, it boils down to having enough clearance for an electric fan.
for the 3 deg down at the rear,it can be off some. the reasons are for carbed engines, yes, but a lot of those engines had an angled carm mount cast into the intake manifold to compensate for that. the 3 deg down is also for driveline angles as well. u joints work best up to 3 deg and then after that they still work but put more stress on the u joints and other parts. they will need a 1 deg variance from a dead straight line because otherwise the needle bearings don't move on the joint trunions and this causes brinnelling. https://spicerparts.com/anglemaster/measuring-angles

the engine down at 4 deg will work but ensure your pinion angle is also up 4 deg to match. a vibration will haunt you otherwise. if using a leaf spring rear suspension there is also spring wind up to consider, depending on the engine torque and the spring stiffness. this affects pinion angle under high torque so if you start out on the edge of being right it could easily wind up enough to cause a shudder under load (like a lot of lifted 4x4's get due to spring block style lifts that allow the diff to move more). google it for more info.

if you only have 1/4" clearance between your engine pulley and the steering rack fitting then you may wanna rethink it for just a bit more clearance. the engine is going to move some as it torques up under power and decelleration and can also move up and down a bit over speed bumps, pot holes etc. those things that seem to suddenly appear when driving and you have no choice but to blast through. the engine mounts can also wear and sag a bit from heat and use over time. 1/4" is really not that much clearance if you factor in any wiggle room. the rack is also rubber mounted (I think) so it can move a bit under load (like dry steering in a parking lot)

for the shift linkage you could use a bent rod idea and/or some spacers on both ends of the linkage. use some threaded rod to practice for cheap then when you get it right bend the "good" rod

thanks DSRAVEN
That link was pretty cool. Also found these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MEbHcEMaCk&t=536s

https://spicerparts.com/calculators/...gle-calculator


Good point on the engine/steering "flex". I did think about it - but then thought due to being welded in place (cross member which both the engine and steering are attached to) and the steering held in by four bolts probably not going to moive much. If it did move they would move together. But .. I might shim just a small bit higher .... or monitor it and go with a 90 degree "bib" line straight down to get extra clearance.

I'll remeasure the clearance for fan tomorrow and go from there and get her welded in hopefully.

[dsraven]

here is a link for some common fan dimensions for thickness. you could always put the fan on the front side of the rad if required, but if you planned on the backside (engine side) then just ensure you have room plus some safety dimension, the air needs to go somewhere. it seems like the thinner fans are made more for use as a helper fan, not a stand alone engine cooling fan. if you will have a/c you will need all the cooling you can get, likely. if you look at the rad and fan that came with the engine's originally intended purpose you could get an idea of what was intended to be used for cooling. you could use 2 fans so the motor part wouldn't be inline with the water pump snout.

https://becool.com/pages/fans

and another site with electric fans

https://www.jaycorptech.com/c-14-spa...yAAEgKyavD_BwE

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by dsraven

here is a link for some common fan dimensions for thickness. you could always put the fan on the front side of the rad if required, but if you planned on the backside (engine side) then just ensure you have room plus some safety dimension, the air needs to go somewhere. it seems like the thinner fans are made more for use as a helper fan, not a stand alone engine cooling fan. if you will have a/c you will need all the cooling you can get, likely. if you look at the rad and fan that came with the engine's originally intended purpose you could get an idea of what was intended to be used for cooling. you could use 2 fans so the motor part wouldn't be inline with the water pump snout.

https://becool.com/pages/fans

and another site with electric fans

https://www.jaycorptech.com/c-14-spa...yAAEgKyavD_BwE

thanks - I'll post a pic up with the fan and radiator in place and current engine position sometime today.

Side note ...... anyone know how thick a transmission crossmember rubber mount needs to really be .....
I bought GM universal MT5000 mount like this

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MT-5000-GM-...-/201522422559

But finding the CPP crossmember is only like 1/4 inch under the mount of the tailshaft. So thinking the best way to adapt is with a real thin square rubber plate sitting over the X-member steel support. But not sure if thats ok ?

[FAKKY]

Heres basically the 2 configurations without getting way more creative

Option 1 - mounts hun inside of frame as I think intended/designed for clearance of exhaust underneath. Almost 0 clearance to mount a trans mount. Could only think to get ike a 1/4" real thick rubber matt cut to square to match the mount pad on the xmember.



option 2 - hung off below the rails. Gives too much vertical but maybe could be bridged with a spacer on bolt. probably means exhuast may have to go over TOP of xmember.

[FAKKY]

Yossarian ...... sent you a PM
Looks like you hit the same issue and "hung" it from the rail ? Post #33

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=549739&page=2

Starting to wonder if I should traise the engine and transmission up even further .... but then im pretty sure I will need to weld in a new trans tunnel cover.

[FAKKY]

think Im going to raise the engine and trans even another 1-2" to make this fit.
Might mean the tranmission cover plate needs some massaging to fit ......

I think these trucks have pretty higher vertical clearance ..... any downside to going higher ?

[FAKKY]

Idea


1) Raise engine and trans another 1"
2) Cut this section out and reweld.

Should let me get the clearance I need on having it sit inside frame which should help with the exhaust and ground clearance.

Cant think of a reason to not go higher. Trans tunnel cover will need massaging is all. Thoughts ?

[dsraven]

raise engine/trans up the required amount to get it to fit properly and have clearance for worst case scenario in all directions. leave room for some sort of fan, exhaust manifold clearance, steering column shaft clearance, front pulley clearance, firewall clearance, etc. remember it will be a royal pain to swap out belts etc if you need to jack the engine up for access. all the things you cuss engineers for now when repairing a vehicle-try not to do that. try to get the engine angle around the 3 deg mark. you can use the trans tailshaft, the oil pan gasket surface, the front pulley surface etc for an angle reference
block engine and trans firmly in that position. remember to keep the engine/trans centerline parallel to the frame so you will stay 90 deg to the rear axle. this doesn't mean the engine must stay in the center of the frame rails. some guys will offset an inch to the pass side for clearance
bolt up the middle section of your trans cross member but leave the ends off for now
fab up a new set of trans cross member frame brackets and try to hang off the web of the frame or, if hanging off the lower rail, try to connect the upper and lower rails when all done. check out a 70-80's chevy trucks trans cross member to see what I mean, it hung off the bottom rail but was braced to the upper rail as well
fab up a set of engine mounts
fab up the required trans hump cover and/or firewall cover if you needed to cut away anything there.

[FAKKY]

Thanks.

The hard part is not having done this before i keep measuring and saying - yup thats ok. Then I find out an issue like this and start thinking - raise higher ?

Just not sure if there is anything bad with going higher. For now - thats the plan - along with triming that mount so it can sit inside the frame rail.

Stupid thing is - if I had used teh transmisison mount to help me line all this up in the first place ..... I might not have had to buy a shallower pan and maybe no even the AC accessory relocation stuff.

oh well.

[FAKKY]

So ... cut the mounting TAB off where i mentioned above ... tack welded it and around half way up the main plate ..... and think that will work ...... had to pack up for night and will have to move ahead with welding and front end mounts on XMAS day time permitting or the weekend.

[dsraven]

like said, don't bother shaving the mount adapter until you have a final height and placement resolved and an idea of what the new set up will look like. that adapter, if you look at it from the outside looking in, is simply a piece of round tubing with an L shaped flange welded on the end and is simply purposed to be an end point for the cross member tube. it is very easy to fab all by itself if you know what you want it to look like, it just needs to have the round tube on a flange so it will fit up against the frame and also accept the cross member. in the end, you want to be able to unbolt the mount from the frame and be able to remove the cross member for ease of engine/trans removal. this can look easy when you fab things up on paper or in your head but then the reality sets in. stuff like frame springing together when the mount is removed so you can't get the cross member back in without some sort of method to push the rails apart, or you bolt it together and then find out it is impossible to remove because the round tube is encapsulated inside the mounts and the frame would have to be spread the dimension of the round tube height in order to get the cross member clear of the round tube. I like the idea of the mount sitting on top of a flat surface because it makes it so much easier to disassemble later or shim up/down to get your angles fine tuned after the fact. you could use the web of the frame rail as a mounting point for strength, with a flat plate bolted to that. the flat plate could have a horizontal flat surface welded on at the correct height so the flat flange of the existing part in the pic could easily be bolted up. that way the cross member becomes easily removed if required but is bolted to the web of the frame rail for strength and there would be no cross bracing required to connect the upper and lower frame flanges so more room for exhaust pipes etc. as long as you don't have a frame mounted master cylinder set up that this idea may interfere with. if you estimate the frame bracket flat surface to be a little bit lower than actually required then you will have some room for fine tuning with shims to go up or take away shims to go down. your cross member is also bendable to get it in the correct place to fit your end point on the frame. a muffler shop with a hydraulic bender could do that in a minute for cheap as long as you can give them a pattern or a dimension.
get the driveline parts blocked where you need them (you can even block the engine/trans to be centered in the frame with a few 2x4's well placed and wired or cable tied) and then do some mocking up, with a normal trans mount installed between the trans and cross member, then the engine and trans can "flex" together as required under load/coast so that one mount system isn't trying to do all that work by itself (which is what could happen in your "rubber placed between trans and cross member" scenario). fab the connecting parts from crafter's poster board or cardboard and when you get it right cut them out of steel for the final.
on the engine height, I used a Camaro pan and it is sitting just about level with the bottom of my TCI MII cross member if memory serves me right. I can dig up a pic of that when I get home if I remember. I have my engine back into the firewall and raised slightly but it does sit pretty low compared to some I have seen. my trans mount is simply a piece of square tubing that is bent slightly to allow the trans to sit lower and it has flat bar welded on the ends, horizontally. then there are some flat bar pieces welded to my frame that those cross member flanges sit on top of. the flat bar on the frame is longer front to rear, than required to allow for any future engine trans changes. it would be easier to notch the firewall and do some quick sheet metal work for a trans hump that have to live with the driveline placed possibly not in the ideal location. the issue becomes what you want to use on the floor inside the cab because that would mean a custom floor covering instead of an "off the shelf" one. if cutting into your firewall make sure to cross brace the cab so it doesn't flex when the cut is made. otherwise you may have door fitment issues or cab mounting issues later. best to leave the doors on when doing this because then you will know right away if there is an issue surfacing. roll the windows down or cover them if doing any cutting/grinding so as not to cause damage to the glass.
just some thoughts for you to ponder while drinking eggnog...and checking ads in the latest classic trucks mag...and grunting appropriately to the wife's questions....haha

[dsraven]

sorry, can't find the pic with the camaro oil pan. I did find this pic which shows a variation of the trans mount

[dsraven]

camaro pan is roughly same height as regular trans pan. if memory serves me. they do put my name on my shirt at work.......

[yossarian19]

What I did was to bolt the cross member to the bottom of the frame rails. This put the rear of the trans lower than I wanted but it was the easiest solution to mount the cross member, by far.
To make up the difference in height that I wanted, I took a 1 1/4 (or so) piece of square tube, drilled two holes, put end caps on it just for fun & used that to space the transmission mount off of the cross member.
I even painted it, so with the end caps & two coats of gray it doesn't look too country when I crawl under the truck.
We probably have our engines at different heights but the principal applies: hang the cross member low / where it's easy, get the height where you want it by adding steel.

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by dsraven

like said, don't bother shaving the mount adapter until you have a final height and placement resolved and an idea of what the new set up will look like. that adapter, if you look at it from the outside looking in, is simply a piece of round tubing with an L shaped flange welded on the end and is simply purposed to be an end point for the cross member tube. it is very easy to fab all by itself if you know what you want it to look like, it just needs to have the round tube on a flange so it will fit up against the frame and also accept the cross member. in the end, you want to be able to unbolt the mount from the frame and be able to remove the cross member for ease of engine/trans removal. this can look easy when you fab things up on paper or in your head but then the reality sets in. stuff like frame springing together when the mount is removed so you can't get the cross member back in without some sort of method to push the rails apart, or you bolt it together and then find out it is impossible to remove because the round tube is encapsulated inside the mounts and the frame would have to be spread the dimension of the round tube height in order to get the cross member clear of the round tube. I like the idea of the mount sitting on top of a flat surface because it makes it so much easier to disassemble later or shim up/down to get your angles fine tuned after the fact. you could use the web of the frame rail as a mounting point for strength, with a flat plate bolted to that. the flat plate could have a horizontal flat surface welded on at the correct height so the flat flange of the existing part in the pic could easily be bolted up. that way the cross member becomes easily removed if required but is bolted to the web of the frame rail for strength and there would be no cross bracing required to connect the upper and lower frame flanges so more room for exhaust pipes etc. as long as you don't have a frame mounted master cylinder set up that this idea may interfere with. if you estimate the frame bracket flat surface to be a little bit lower than actually required then you will have some room for fine tuning with shims to go up or take away shims to go down. your cross member is also bendable to get it in the correct place to fit your end point on the frame. a muffler shop with a hydraulic bender could do that in a minute for cheap as long as you can give them a pattern or a dimension.


get the driveline parts blocked where you need them (you can even block the engine/trans to be centered in the frame with a few 2x4's well placed and wired or cable tied) and then do some mocking up, with a normal trans mount installed between the trans and cross member, then the engine and trans can "flex" together as required under load/coast so that one mount system isn't trying to do all that work by itself (which is what could happen in your "rubber placed between trans and cross member" scenario). fab the connecting parts from crafter's poster board or cardboard and when you get it right cut them out of steel for the final.

on the engine height, I used a Camaro pan and it is sitting just about level with the bottom of my TCI MII cross member if memory serves me right. I can dig up a pic of that when I get home if I remember. I have my engine back into the firewall and raised slightly but it does sit pretty low compared to some I have seen. my trans mount is simply a piece of square tubing that is bent slightly to allow the trans to sit lower and it has flat bar welded on the ends, horizontally. then there are some flat bar pieces welded to my frame that those cross member flanges sit on top of. the flat bar on the frame is longer front to rear, than required to allow for any future engine trans changes. it would be easier to notch the firewall and do some quick sheet metal work for a trans hump that have to live with the driveline placed possibly not in the ideal location. the issue becomes what you want to use on the floor inside the cab because that would mean a custom floor covering instead of an "off the shelf" one. if cutting into your firewall make sure to cross brace the cab so it doesn't flex when the cut is made. otherwise you may have door fitment issues or cab mounting issues later. best to leave the doors on when doing this because then you will know right away if there is an issue surfacing. roll the windows down or cover them if doing any cutting/grinding so as not to cause damage to the glass.

just some thoughts for you to ponder while drinking eggnog...and checking ads in the latest classic trucks mag...and grunting appropriately to the wife's questions....haha

ha ha ... Appreciate the info and pics.

I got most of this done and basically have the engine and transmission raised as high as I can without having to redo the trans tunnel.
That means my engine oil pan sits above the cross member.... and the transmission pan probably right about even.

I had already cut the XMEMBER and the frame connector/endpoints ..... so I measured and tack welded them together last night and think its a pretty good fit. So will get it welded today and put in to support the backend.







I shifted an remeasured the engine angle and the trans angle. Think Im about as good as IM going to get. IM almost 1 degree rearend down (not completely level as the truck sits in carport).



So that should be close to 3 degrees down at engine.
Im also around 2.5 degrees down at tailshaft.

The engine measured on the intake plate has a very slight tilt


Unsure if I can shim that closer ...... each action has an opposite reaction I have found that sometimes you make it worse the other way when trying to fix these very small differences. Will see. Also needs to see if any tilt in fame as it stands (its pretty level though) and take that into consideration (left to right).

BIGGEST lesson I learened from all of this is that I should have used the tranmission member to help decide position of engine ealier on before making decision on AC and steering rack clearance. In the end it seems its best to go as high as you can ...... as that gives you

1) Clearance for front end steering rack lines
2) Possible clearance for AC unit. Looks like my OEM would actually fit ....... but I already ordered a relocation bracket and new AC unit.
3) Less fabrication or work on rear end trans crossmember ....... and better clerance for oil plan and trans pan.

I do the like CPP kit for $60 odd ... its well made ...... just not sure sinve I had to mess with it anyway if it would have been easier just getting squarre tubing and making my own. Probably a split there ..... less time and a good unit .... raw material probably would have been 30-40 anyway.

definately need to get the trans welded in and the the engine mounts mocked and put in and welded.
Should be able to this weekend ....... but I said that last weekend

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by yossarian19

What I did was to bolt the cross member to the bottom of the frame rails. This put the rear of the trans lower than I wanted but it was the easiest solution to mount the cross member, by far.
To make up the difference in height that I wanted, I took a 1 1/4 (or so) piece of square tube, drilled two holes, put end caps on it just for fun & used that to space the transmission mount off of the cross member.
I even painted it, so with the end caps & two coats of gray it doesn't look too country when I crawl under the truck.
We probably have our engines at different heights but the principal applies: hang the cross member low / where it's easy, get the height where you want it by adding steel.

Thanks.
I decided just to cut the damn tabs off and relocate them where I needed them. Figured if I got it wrong could just cut them off and redo
Once its all in Ill post some pics. Just remembered you hitting a similar issue. Wasnt really the rework of the ttrans Xmmeber was concerned about .... still just fretting about engine position ...... lol .... probably will be even after its driving.

[joedoh]

yep, experience is just that, doing it a second time better than the first. some guys will do hours worth of work to avoid a 10 minute fix that starts over (I have!) and some guys get it right away. congrats!

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by joedoh

yep, experience is just that, doing it a second time better than the first. some guys will do hours worth of work to avoid a 10 minute fix that starts over (I have!) and some guys get it right away. congrats!

Amen. I hope to do this a 2nd time ...... but we will have to see. Was sort of a bucket list kinda of thing ..... it might be when Im retired I decide to do a another one ...... but who knows what life has in store for me then ....

Heres the motor mounts from LSX innovations. I asked for them unwelded as
I wanted to move the bushings further forward ... so I welded myself. Very good quality.


https://www.ebay.com/usr/lsxinnovati...72.m2749.l2754








Hope to weld in on the 1st to frame ....... then wife is going to paint the interior with POR15 and do the sound proofing whilst I wsork on brake lines and help her ..... and maybe chassis electrical

[FAKKY]

Well i got the mounts in.
However not too excited about the quality if welds as I was in some hard/tight spaces using the mig gun.

So thinking about pulling the engine ........ and grinding back and rewelding most with mig and then the tight passage with stick. Just so more confident on welds. Not sure how much stress these joints see but dont want to find out.

[FAKKY]

After cutting back and rewelding - not fighting tight space and movement and getting gun sertup properly.
Much better.

[FAKKY]

Huge day (for me). Engine is in its FINAL resting place ..... mounting brackets on and welded and painted and the transmission mount also.









So no more engine hoists to work around.

On the next area I was looking at (fuel) .... was really hoping to run an TANKSINC intank pump in the existing tank ..... but doesn look like thats going to work due to the offset 8.8 explorer rear.



Since the tank is leaking fuel somewhere (not sure if structural or other as yet)


I'll probbaly look to move to rear like everyone else. Just a little concerned what that means for routing of exhaust to the rear .....

[FAKKY]

Scrapped the rear idea.
Exhuast placement as well as no spare ....


Looks like i'll either be going with a custom 10" wide tank (47" long x 10" tall " 10" wide) for $360 shipped .....

or

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/pa...rod/prd128.htm

together with their intank pump.


Most concern is the driveshaft obviously based on pic above. So might need to mock that out.

[yossarian19]

Just to throw another option out there, had you considered using a VetteWorks type adapter, so you can run a factory fuel pump / regulator / gauge sender?
Not sure it's going to be any cheaper but I like OEM solutions when I can find them.