69 c-10 4bt or built 327

[blackdawn]

ok so i have been reading and researching for several weeks now and i have found a lot of information. now i want to get peoples opinions on what would work best for my situation. so here it is:
1969 c-10 halfton with coil rear
no engine no trans and will be changing tires and rear end gears to tune crusing rpm as needed
i drive about 18,000 miles a year and this will be my daily driver (90% freeway to work)
diesel fuel is on average is about 20 cents higher than 87 gas here
this truck will not haul anything 95% of the time, but will need the ability to pull a car hauler with a car on it if the need arises (dont really care what kind of fuel millage i get here as it will only happen 2 or 3 times a year at most)
my over all goal is fuel millage with some ability to tow when needed

so here are the 2 options i have in front of me:

have an engine builder budy build up a 327 from a 350 block that we will have a good amount of lower end torque ~370 ft lb's max
then purchase a 700r4 built by bowtie over drives
cost on this is about 3500-4k for the engine and another 2k for the tranny.

second option, find myself a bread truck, pull the 4bt, rebuild it if necessary, purchase either a 47rh or a 700r4 built up, redo brakes to hydroboost, adapt the power steering pump somehow for all of that, build the necisary mounts etc. i currently have a 4 core radiator so i dont think that will be an issue, and i will most likely get an intercooler.
all said and done im probably looking at around 6k for this package

that being said i am not interested in other diesels, 6.2 or 6.5 or the 6bt.

what do you guys think between these 2 scenarios, should i try and find myself a bread truck and head down that road, and pray my budget doesn't go to the moon, or stick with the priced out 327? best estimates that i have seen would be the 327 at 18-20mpg on the freeway and the 4bt around 25mpg on the freeway. so its about $700-1000 a year in savings on fuel with the 4bt right now. would like to hear opinions on doing it for the money savings mostly but i welcome the coolness factor of it. i don't plan to sell this truck, well ever since I'm going to sink more money than its worth into it body wise anyway.

[Wasted Income]

I highly doubt you'll see 18-20 mpg out of the "built" 327. I had a stock 1994 350 with a 700R4 and 3.73 gear in my C-10 and the milage was anywhere from 12-16 mpg.

My vote goes to 4BT. I don't know how a 700R4 will hold up behind it...they had plenty of problems behind the 6.2s....but I think you'd get the best economy out of the diesel, and the "cool factor" would be off the charts.

[blackdawn]

the 327 was going to be built with aluminum vortect heads (etec 170's) with a good compression ratio, so its more of a hope and a prayer that it is 18-20, since i have not seen anyone do it on a 327. as for the 700r4 i was going to purchase a rebuilt level 2 from the bowtie guys which should handle 400hp and 500 ftlb's of torque which is more than what i would have the 4bt putting out. thanks for your comment

[NICK3757]

Why not buy a 5.3 and 4L60E with the complete wiring harness and put that in? It should cost the same if not less than the 4bt and you should be able to get really good mileage out of it. And then you don't have to mess around with hooking up a kickdown cable to the cummins or getting a transmission adapter.

[blackdawn]

in all honesty im trying to avoid any computerized or over complicated wiring, simple and something i could possibly work on myself are rather important to me as well

[GMCJOE]

If you are wanting that kind of fuel economy. Your best bet is to do a 5.3 with the 4L80E transmission swap, fairly cheap out of a salvage yard complete with wiring harness. Then get with nelsonsperformance.com and have them tune you computer for what you want out of it. My buddy with his 2005 silverado z71 is averaging about 17 town and 20 out on the highway with the tune they put on the computer.

Overall, the 327 is going to be an easier install. You can choose to spend a little cash and get a fuel injection system on it. Then you should be getting fuel economy like the 90's chevy's with the setup yo are talking about.

With the 4bt. Don't know much about these swaps. But I read where a guy installed one with a 700r4 in a 88 4x4 and was averaging 18 in town. Which sounds great. So, this may actually be the way to go for fuel economy.

[GMCJOE]

Go the route you feel you will like the best. Would love to see you do a build thread on the 4bt swap.

[blackdawn]

if anyone has or knows someone who has taken an put a 4bt and an od trans into one of our 1/2 ton 2wd trucks i would love to talk to them. my searches haven't really come back with any good hits on that, ive seen some 6bt's but that gets way too involved on the install and they arent as nice on fuel.

[blackdawn]

honestly the 2 trains of thought i have are i know i can do the 327 build it and put it in no hassle done and done no modifying, but i like the idea of the 4bt more, but im worried i wont be able to find one at a good price, and end up going way over budget and possibly get over my head on installing it.

[sir_talk_alot]

Heres my opinion, 327 the reason why is because if your truck was a long bed I could see the 4bt being handy for a work truck/ tow tig. but because your truck is a short bed and a stepside even though the 4Bt would be a cool factor I think 327 would be a better choice as more of a cruiser/hotrod. Thats my opinion. I want to find a 4bt/nv4500 and swap into a c20 with disc brakes and modern rearend for a sweet towing rig and work truck.
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[GMCJOE]

www.4btswaps.com/ This is probably the best site to go to for finding info out on swapping. Or search for another site like it.

I say do the 327, put a fuel injection system on it like EZI EFI with a 700r4 and call it a day. Or do the 5.3 conversion. I think either way with those swaps you will be saving a head ache and its easier install. And will cost you less from the research of the 4bt engine cost alone. The benefit of the 5.3 is they last forever and you can get the computer tuned. Just won't have the higher record fuel economy of the 4bt's.

[1972RedNeck]

You can get 24 MPG with a 4BT, SM420, and 2.92 rear end gears in a c10.

[duallyjams]

IMO that's a high price tag for a 327 why not just buy a GM crate engine. I know you don't want a computer but if you want fuel mileage out of a gas engine your better with a computer , every build thread that has a ls engine get 24 mpg the 327 will never do that.
Diesel is the way to go case in point my crew cab dually with a diesel gets 22mpg , if you go with a auto I would use a 200R.

[black_sheep454]

5.3/4l60 swap is probably the best and cheapest way. If you go with a 4bt make sure all the gearing is right or it won't run over 50 mph
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[blackdawn]

i realize either option is pretty pricey, a 350 vortec crate motor is still 3k plus shipping etc.

so why do you say put a 200r behind a diesel? i know they can be built as can a 700r4, but can they be built that much and what would be the advantage?

[Wasted Income]

If a 200 will hold up to this kind of abuse...it will handle what you're planning.
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...d/viewall.html

[sir_talk_alot]

Nice
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[Vintage Windmills]

Will the 327 have HEI, carb tuned for mileage, and have a roller cam conversion? Build for torque, not HP if you want mileage and driveability. Most build for HP and then complain about the mileage, but that is what they signed up for.

[huahuamick]

Go the route you feel you will like the best.

[special-K]

Originally Posted by 1972RedNeck

You can get 24 MPG with a 4BT, SM420, and 2.92 rear end gears in a c10.

Skip the overdrive. The 4BT won't like staying there anyway,I don't think. That's an awful high price for that 327. I already had mine large journal 327 (paid $200 w/TH400) and my engine builder buddy built me a healthy motor for $1,300. If you fond a 200r4,that's good,but a 700r4 isn't as bad as some are making it sound. Especially not a built-up one. They went through a lot of changes from early to late. I have one behind a 6.2 in my Jimmy and it's been doing fine. I get 22-24 mpg out of that with 35" tires & 4.10 ratio. I don't tow in O/D.

[jocko]

I agree - the price you quote for the 327 is very high - and I understand it includes expensive top shelf parts, but... If you really want that much torque/hp, then don't start with a 327, takes a lot more $ to ge that sort of perf out fo a 327. If you're concerned with going over budget with the 4bt as compared to the 327 estimate - then maybe both are at the outer limits of your wallet's ballpark?? I of course don't know, money may be no object, but since you mention it - neither approach is very low-cost up front.

So, you've posed two goals: hp AND fuel economy...

The two are usually mutually exclusive in a gas motor. Trans choice will help, but the high end fuel econ estimates seem a good bit too high in my experience - you could shoot for 12-13 and be ecstatic with 15 if you get it. Having said that - I tend to agree that the 5.3/4L60-80 swap is the best route for mileage and power.

So, seems the first question is:
1) what type of engine do you want? gas or diesel?
then, the rest should come into play....
If diesel, it's a no brainer, go that route.
If gas, then you have to decide:
a) old school with avg/below avg mileage, but cooler than snot because it's a 327?
or
b) new school, some computer junk, but more power, reliability, and better mileage.

Me, I'd go 327, much less expensive rebuild (i.e. forego the lofty hp goal if this is a cruiser) and put the money you save in a nicely built 700R4 or 2004R AND the proper rear gear. That's COOL and it would get decent fuel economy with the right trans/rear end gearing.

Agree that the 200 is a great trans. But not every 200 is the same as what came behind a GNX. So, a mildly built 700R4 should meet your needs AND a mildly built 2004R should also meet your needs. I'm a big fan of the Bowtie Overdrive guys, they could probably offer some great advice on this as well.

Good luck! Any route you take will make for a very interesting build thread.

[blackdawn]

sorry was rather busy during the weekend so now to answer some questions. first off for the 327 i was going with a flat tappet, actually an isky 201256, that brings the torque for the 327 down into the 2k-3k range. my goal is ultimately fuel mileage be it gas or diesel. diesel is averages 20cents a gallon more in my area so i have to factor that in as well. as for power that is second to fuel economy. i only need enough to pull a trailer once in a blue moon and don't mind if my fuel economy goes to junk during those periods. the reason for the 327 being so expensive is i am building it from scratch, all i have is a 350 block. i am also avoiding the most of the ls stuff if i can due to the complications of all the sensors, computer and various other stuff that could go wrong. i also do not have a trans yet so based on the route i go i will be getting an apropriate trans and changing my rear end gear ratio to effectively put my freeway cruising rpms at the ideal location for each motor.

here is the 327 build wish list if you want to take a look for your self to see what im planning: http://www.summitracing.com/users/wi...d-aa3164cc47a1

i think ultimately what it will probably boil down to is if i can find a 4bt rebuilt or low miles for cheaper or at a similar cost to the 327 build then i will probably go after it, but as im sure most of you know they can be hard to come by and some people want a fortune for them.

[blackdawn]

oh forgot to throw in yes hei, and a q-jet on the 327

[rsavage]

If you drive 18,000 miles per year and currently get 12 mpg you will use 1500 gallons of gas at say $4 per gallon equaling a $6000 fuel bill.

If you spend $6000 on either set up and get 18 mpg you will use 1000 gallons of fuel at $4 per gallon equaling a $4000 fuel bill - a savings of $2000 per year. Therefore, you would have a 3 year pay back for either change. Diesel is more costly than 87 but a "built" engine may have a compression ratio high enough that it will need 91 or 93.

In either case, it doesn't appear that you will achieve any real savings until you are into year 4 providing gas stays at around $4 and diesel at around $4.30. If it gets cheaper again, it will take more years for payback.

[blackdawn]

gas going down in price? what magic is this? anyway im building from the ground up and the engine/tranny i have both need rebuilds, so in reality id spend a grand plus to get them road worthy, so that would knock a year off the money recoupe. that being said i would expect the engine and tranny to last much longer than 60--80k miles, so in the long run it would pay me back. i will never see my money back out of this build so i plan to keep it a long time.