Stumped.

[mike reeh]

got my engine back in and all hooked up. IT WILL NOT RUN.

I have checked and double checked (sometimes quintiple (?) checked) everything.

I can get it to barely sputter while holding the throttle from 1/2 to full. other than that it just will not run. I am stumped like I aint never been stumped before.

the engine was completely torn down and reassembled with new head gaskets (the engine was barely broken in from new) and lifters. thats it, it ran before disassembly.

the only thing I havent replaced is the carb. but I just rebuild this carb only a very short time ago and im 99% sure about the carb. It will not run with the addition of starting fluid, and its definately getting fuel. its not overflowing thru the venturii like a dirty needle & seat would indicate.

Ive replaced the cap, rotor, module, harness, capacitor in the distributor (only thing havent changed is the pickup coil) with absolutely no change.

I have set and re-set valve lash, made 100% SURE that its not 180 degrees out.. I have taken off the valve cover, and when both #1 valves are at zero tension just after the intake valve has closed, and just before the exhaust valve opens, my balancer indications TDC and the piston is physically at TDC by sticking something in there. So that rules out distributor 180 out or timing chain not installed correctly. plugs and wires are new, fuel is fresh. Its getting a real strong spark.. I removed the distributor and gave it 12v and spun the input shaft and every pole sparks very hard. nothing wrong there. I can move the distributor at least 50 degrees each direction (advanced and retarded) from TDC. There are no vacuum lines to be left unhooked. Got good squirt thru the accelerator pump nozzles..

A solid 12+ volts at the distributor hot wire.. engine turns over fast enough.. I have tried using jumper cables from 2 other good sources of power for 12V, tried isolating (removing completely) the battery from the system, isolated the alternator from the system, even isolated the entire cab from the system by running 12v directly to the distributor, and no go.

Im about to drive the thing off a cliff. As a last resort Im going to replace the pickup coil maybe tomorrow, or maybe tonite if the one from the old distributor is useable.. other than that Im totally stumped.. except of course for replacing the carb.. there is no lack of fuel though.. if anything too much but Im 99% sure its not flooding.. after removing the spark plugs they dont smell like gas and are not wet..

ANY ideas?

mike

[allthrtl]

Have you pulled a plug and made sure it's getting fire?? If it is, are you ABSOLUTELY sure you have the wires on in the correct order?? Is the accelerater pump squirting fuel in the carb when you open the throttle?? If you getting fuel and fire, then it has to be a timing or firing order problem....Good Luck

HTH

[mike reeh]

... did you even read my post?

mike

[swervin ervin]

It sounds like it's not getting any compression, when you say it turns over fast. This makes me think it's not timed right.

Try this just for the fun of it.

Take out the #1 plug, stick a piece of tissue paper in the hole, lightly. Now turn the motor over by hand while watching the timing mark. When the tissue pops out, stop and then slowly finish turning it until the mark is at TDC. This is TDC on #1 on the compression stroke. Then pull the cap and see where the rotor is pointing. Should be dead on the #1 tower.

I'm sure you know this, but it's all I could think of.

[allthrtl]

FIRST...YES, I did read your post. But obviously your missing something or it would be running. You would think someone needing help would be a little less of a smart a$$... Especially since the post isn't getting a whole lot of response from anyone else....

plugs and wires are new

Just because they are new doesn't mean they are installed correctly.....Does it backfire thru the carb? Sounds like a timing or ignition problem to me....Did you replaced the pickup coil yet??

there is no lack of fuel though.. if anything too much but Im 99% sure its not flooding.. after removing the spark plugs they dont smell like gas and are not wet..

It's possible that you have a fuel problem as well....With all the cranking and stuff I'm sure you've been doing, there should be some indication of unburnt fuel on the plugs. If the carb is working, fuel will reach the plugs whether the engine runs or not...If you have a spare carb anywhere, try it, what do you have to loose....

[mike reeh]

im very tempted to give the sort of response Id give to Tim (84 K10) but I will resist. this isnt the place.



Mike I have checked to make sure its TDC of compression stroke a bunch of times, one of the times I used the method that blows my finger off the spark plug hole, which is sort of the same thing. I am definately only human, but I have done this so many times in the past that if I made the mistake I would have corrected it.. Whatever the problem may be, its hiding out pretty well. I did not replace the pickup coil. I have never heard of one going bad and its only a few years old with a few thousand miles on it.

but, allthrtl, good question. NO it DOESNT backfire thru the carb and Im not sure if Im happy or NOT about that! I wish it was then I know it would be timing (valve or ignition) related.. it has not fired thru the carb even ONCE.

On a related note, when its sputtering, its getting a LOT of pressure back thru the carb though as I can see many tiny droplets of fuel coming from the primaries... I find it strange, Im not sure if its just a side effect of the engine running bad or what.

All my life I have gone zero lash + 1/2 turn on the lifters.. I WONDER if maybe with these new lifters I should go just to zero lash? If I cranked the rockers too tight and the engine wasnt able to make full compression, I could see it acting the way it is. Seems like a real long shot though.

get this though, when I do get the engine to SPUTTER for 30 seconds or whatever, every exhaust header is equally hot to the touch, and quite hot at that.

welp, back to the garage to scratch my head some more.. Ive got the carb torn down right now, against my better judgement.. The float level was perfect and its like new in there.. the search continues...

swervin: it cranks fast enough... it actually cranks rather slow. But definately fast enough to start. And when the battery dies, it hits each compression stroke and struggles.. its definately making SOME compression..

allthrtl: regarding the spare carb thing, I do have the parts to a spare q-jet which is still in xlnt condition and I know it runs good, just gotta swap in the jets and rods.. Maybe Ill do it just for peice of mind.


mike

[mike reeh]

just swapped the carb with a known good one, exact same situation. I knew it wasnt the carb :/

the search continues...

mike

[allthrtl]

Well, the carb woulda been to easy, that's my kinda luck...

I would go ahead and change the pickup coil. P/u coils very rarely go bad, But, they do go bad. I have had it happen to me twice. However, both times the symptoms where extremely rich conditions, followed closely by plug fouling. I'm still inclined to believe it's a timing issue of some sort. The blow back thru the carb, depending on the amount, seems to indicate a timing issue, or a valve adjustment issue. Your discription of how you adjusted the valves, sounds exactly like how I do it. It's a pain, but it might be worth rechecking. I always wait a few minutes between turning the engine over to do the next set of valves, to let the lifters bleed down. Just a little thing you have to do with Harley's to keep from bending pushrods, so it can't hurt on a chevy.....

FYI...Just saying, that kinda attitude won't getcha much help...I'm just trying to help ya out....

[swervin ervin]

Replace the pickup coil. How bout the coil. This is HEI, right? What capacitor we talking about?

If the header tubes are hot, it has been firing the plugs for sure. If it's spraying gas out of the primaries, it seems to me it's a valve timing issue, or at least maybe a possibility the valves are too tight and not closing right.

Try my valve adjustment procedure. Worth a shot. If the valves are too tight, it won't start. Same with being too loose.

http://www.73-87.com/garage/valvlash.htm

If you don't want to buy timing tape, you can use some masking tape and lay it off at four 90 degree increments. Or you can just lay the balancer off just as easy.

One thing about it, when you finally do figure out what it is, it will be something simple. It always is.

[87 STEPPER]

Mike,

You say you completely tore down the eng. and reassy. it you also said it ran before this and that it was new???? if so why did you take it apart in the first place?

You failed to mention if any internal components were replaced!! other than the head gasket's.

Did you install a new/differant cam form the one that came out at the time of tear down??, same ? for the timing gear set if so then may be the cam was Mfg. wrong i.e. inproper grind if the cam was ground wrong you can have it all lining up but if the lobe degree is off from the gear timing then you ain't running.

Are you using a multi keyed crank shaft timing gear?

If so are you a 100% shure you have it matached to the cam gear correctly i.e. 0*crank/0*cam, or maybe it's 10*crank/0*cam & so on.

These are about the only thing's i can think of i know there long shot's but it's possible if you changed any of the component's i mentioned.

Good luck.

[Captkaos]

The only things required for a running engine is fuel, air and spark. Since it is sputtering, you are getting all 3, but apparently one is off. Since the Carb is working ok, that eliminates fuel and technically air. Unless the valves aren't timed/lashed correctly. The only other thing left is spark.
I would say check the lifters/lash, if that doesn't work then double check the timing.

[mike reeh]

thanks for the responses guys..

I replied to swervin and allthrtls last posts but I Guess it didnt go thru?

I will change the pickup coil just to completely rule it out..

swervin: the capacitor im talking about is the one bolted right next to the module inside the HEI.. its part of the wiring harness.

swervin im praying that its something simple. But i swear Ive checked all the "simple" stuff by now..

87 Stepper: both head gaskets were leaking between cylinders (siamesed cylinders) and it was missing but it still ran well enough to drive.. I couldnt find the problem right away so I was going to replace the cam & lifters for peice of mind.. Well when I found the gaskets had leaked I changed my mind about the cam (close inspection rendered it in perfect condition) but by this time I had already thrown all the lifters in a pile and I didnt know where to put them so I just bought new lifters. The lifters and head gaskets are the only things I changed. The timing set is still new and tight and I KNOW I put the crank key on "0" .. the other 2 keyways were "A" and "R" for advanced and retarded.. and the big sprocket only goes on one way.. I aligned them at 6 & 12 (6 oclock for the top sprocket and 12 oclock for the bottom sprocket) and away I went.. I specifically remember doing this and Im 110% sure that I have it on right.

87 stepper those are Excellent suggestions though.. Thanks.. Even though im "110%" sure about the timing set, It will still linger in the back of my mind until I get this problem worked out :/ ....

captain: ugh you make it sound so simple. and it is really. I do know that I have fuel air spark and compression but apparently one of them is not up to par, or perhaps they're at the wrong "time"... its looking like its a timing issue of some sort, but as Ive said I have checked it a billion times.. I understand how and why this stuff works too so Im not just guessing...

I once thought I knew a thing or two about working on sbc's but I feel about 2 inches tall right now. this will be one story Ill be telling for a while.

Ill keep yall posted.. I think Im going to wrench on it some more tomorrow (saturday)

thanks again,

mike

[Nvbowtie]

Mike,

You may want to link this thread to the: Engine board,

so more minds can help with this, that may not read this board.

I am glued to this thread and others like it, because I am close to wiring and firing my engine also (mid-July I hope!!).

I hope it does turn out to be simple, because I am getting nervous about my engine not firing and it being something not so simple….So positive and successful outcomes are keeping my spirits up ! DOH, I’m rambling. keep us posted !!

[swervin ervin]

Mike,

you say you lined the gears at 6 and 12, which is correct way to put on the gears and chain. But, did you rotate the engine one more turn? This is TDC, or 12 and 12. 6 and 12 is TDC on #6 cylinder, not #1.

So to recap and keep the confusion down, put the gears on at 6:00 for the cam gear, and 12:00 for the crank gear. This makes it easier to line everything up. Now, rotate the engine one turn so the gears are at 12:00 for the cam, and 12:00 for the crank. You are now at TDC on the compression stroke on cylinder #1. It's easier to put the timing cover and pointer on first, then rotate. Stop the timing mark at something like 8 or 10 degrees BTDC. Drop in the distributor and point it at #1 tower. This is called static timing. This way your timing is set to the initial amount of 8 or 10 degrees and will be easier to start.

Unless you did this final step, you have just found your problem. I truely hope this is it.

[mike reeh]

mike I didnt leave the motor at 6&12 after installing the timing set.. I have turned the engine over by hand and whatnot many times... Not to mention I have pulled the distributor and had to line it up about a billion times. it *is* at TDC of compression stroke of #1 cylinder.. but good point..


I still havent found what Im looking for, and to make matters worse the nose of my brand new $175 mini starter just broke off. *sigh*

anyways I did swap the pickup coil (actually installed a completely different distributor to rule out even the main body of the distributor) and no-go.

I also removed all wiring from the engine and ran 12v to the distributor from the battery and then a battery cable to the starter.. all this with the alternator unhooked. STILL no go.

its starting to get really frustrating

mike

[gchemist]

Interesting. I would try one thing. Change the plugs again and gap at 0.40 or 0.45. Stomp the throttle and let it crank!!

[swervin ervin]

Well, I'm at a loss for what to say try. I know you're no dummy.

I think if I were in your shoes, I'd start from scratch. I would tear it back down and start again. Maybe this time it may come to you. Not saying it's anything you've done wrong, but we've all done things wrong before. God knows I have.

With everything you've done, nothing is working. Do a compression test just to see if anything seems abnormal. Did you actually remove the plug wire to see if you are getting fire at the plugs? What color was the spark if you did?

What gets me is you say the header tubes are all hot to the touch, but it never tries to start. How is this happening? In order for the tubes to be hot, don't something have to be burning? If it's burning, why not try to start? Something to think about I guess.

[87 STEPPER]

Mike,

I am wondering if you have a groung problem @ the distributor i know you said you ck'ed all the wireing but did you wring each wire from the dist. to where it terminates??? Maybe one has a brake internally and the insulation looks good!

And that's why it has the intermitant sputtering you speak of.

I would do this befor you tare down the eng.

Also do you have a heavy grouning jumper from the eng. to the frame hooked up???

One last sugestion------>Maybe you should drop in the old lifters and see what happen's i dont think any harm will come from them not going back into there original locations if the motor didn't have that much runing time on it.

It's the only component you changed and then this problem arose!

What else do ya have to lose except more time

Man i hope we fix this soon cuz it's starting to pi$$ me off and it's not even my truck I hate it when someone in here has this much of a problem and all the good sugestions thrown at you don't produce a positive result.

[86SILVERADO]

I would vote for electrical as well. I know you are frustrated man and many of us have been there as well. I am sure you know this and have checked (trying to cover my own butt here as well) but a spark is not a spark is not a spark as you are aware I am sure! Do you have a healthy fat blue one between wire and frame? I have always found that when you are mechanically capable which it sounds like you are, then the confounding problem is almost always electrical and in this case I mean GROUND, and a damn good one, or faulty brand new parts which is less common to be sure. Good luck and one last thing. I have had luck with forgetting about the damn thing for a day or two ENTIRELY and going back at it with an open mind and a level temper at some other time. I have solved some of the worst darn gremlins in my rigs this way more than once. May the force be with you.

Norris

[jeffspower]

Two long-shot ideas. But I have seen both.

1: A few weeks ago a friend put a 4.3 v6 in a 83 pickup that had been sitting for over a year. He knew nothing about the motor, just grabbed it from the bonepile & stuck it in hoping it would be decent. It would start & idle, but if you tried to speed it up, it wouldn't. I took a look to see what I could figure out. After tinkering awhile- I held it WOT without mercy. It wouldn't rev untill all of a sudden- it sounded like a cannon went off- & a big pile of mouse nest or something shot out the tailpipe! It runs decent now!

2: About 7 years ago one of my techs rebuilt a customer's flathead Continental 4 cyl. gas engine in a old carrydeck crane. It drove in the shop fine smoking & spewing oil everywhere. We done a complete rebuild. It would do nothing but sputter after rebuild. After spending 2 days trying to figure out WTF was wrong, checking everything again & again, # 1 at TDC, moving the distributor all over, checking compression, the relative relationship of valve movements to piston position- I told him- I don't care that you know the cam gears are timed right, it has got to be what is wrong! Sure enough- the marks were off! He had it lined up to some sort of scratch on the cam gear!

I'd drop the exhaust first & see what happens. If it still wont go, pull the timing cover & check the timing marks. If you are like me, you are so friggin pissed off by now it should take about 20 minutes to get it off.

GOOD LUCK!!!

[mike reeh]

JEFF im still laughing! The thought of something plugging the exhaust crossed my mind but its been sitting in a well used garage the whole time so I guess I find it sort of unlikely.. the next time I have to remove those headers, its to replace the engine with a BBC. But if it comes to that, we'll see no seriously I will end up checking that before Im done..



talked with the guy who built the engine the first time.. he says it sure sounds like ignition problems.. he gave me another known good HEI so Im gonna throw that in, change the plugs & this distributor has new 8.8mm wires on it so we'll see where I stand in about 2 hrs..



wish me luck, Ill keep yall posted.

mike

[mike reeh]

same deal. what a surprise. I guess I have to bite the bullet and remove the timing cover.. ARGH that irritates me more than words can describe. more later.

if the timing gears are fine, Im truely at a loss for what to do.. if they're wrong, Im going to drive the truck off a cliff with me in it!

mike

[SCOTI]

Mike, I'm gettin' frustrated . . . ..... so I know you've gotta be gettin' pissed.

I know somebody suggested it already but step away for a day or 2 & maybe you'll think of something new. Sure is starting to sound like it's cam gear or valve timing related.

Drink 1 frosty pop & enjoy an 'atta-boy' for not giving up.

[79BIG10]

I've been following this and think that it's about to be found.

Here's my .02 Mike could the crank key have broke on the cam gear? This would have made the cam not turn then no valves open or close. Just a thought

[mike reeh]

SCOTI, frustrated was days ago.. I dont know theres a word for what I feel now probably disappointed more than anything. Mainly because I cant drive the truck and havent driven it in so long. and all the work Ive done to it in the last 2 years seems to be going down the drain. I was so looking forward to getting this motor back in and running real quick then doing a 700r4 conversion.. I have the money saved up and everything. starting to look like that $$ will be used for machine work and parts now

Maybe a .030 overbore and some vortec heads and a new intake are in order.. thats probably what Ill do.

as for stepping away for a day or two, Ive done that a couple times now.. this saga has been ongoing for a couple weeks now I think..

so my friend the machinist came over today.. he checked everything he could and is baffled also. He took the 3 distributors home to give em a look see, says he'll get back to me tomorrow and dont pull the timing cover yet.

it DOES sound valve timing related but Im pretty sure it aint!



Brandon: I havent had the valve covers on in at least a week so I can see all the valves moving but good guess

I will keep everyone posted and thanks for sticking with me thru all this!

mike