I need starter help!

[vexvader]

I have a 1970 C10 with a basically stock 350. I only drive about 1000 miles a year on the weekends.

Here is the problem...

Every six months I have to buy a new starter.

It works great for about 4 months and then all of the sudden it won't crank the motor once it is hot. After three new Auto Zone starters I bought a Summit high torq starter, wrapped it in a starter insulation kit and it worked for about a year and now it is doing the same thing.

I do NOT have headers and the battery and cables are good. Every time I put a new starter on it cranks right up every time for about six months.

Please help!!!
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[72 K20]

Here's a good thread on the starter issues of these old trucks !! I have changed all of the old trucks I've owned to a furd style solenoid,,, no more hot start issues and the starters last a lot longer. I had a big block 69 C10 that ate a starter about once a month. After this conversion I never replaced another starter.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=475748

Hope this helps !!

Tom

[VetteVet]

You might try the remote starter kits or make your own. They are designed to fix this exact problem. The idea is to get the most voltage to the starter solenoid possible.

This is one using the ford solenoid.



This one uses the Bosch solenoid.




This one is the one I prefer.

[72 K20]

This one is the one I prefer.

That's how I do mine !!

[vexvader]

So once I wire up the Ford solenoid do I need to replace my starter again? I would like to keep high torq on I just bought a year ago if possible.
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[Tx Firefighter]

You shouldn't need to resort to modifying for a Ford solenoid. When working properly, there is no reason in the world for your truck to need modifying.

I'd start with doing a voltage drop test on the battery cables and ground straps. No matter how they look or how new, until proven good via testing, they are suspect.
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[cdowns]

remove two battery cables

clean all 4ends and where they mount a slight coating of dielectric grease and reinstall battery cables

[WIDESIDE72]

Originally Posted by Tx Firefighter

You shouldn't need to resort to modifying for a Ford solenoid. When working properly, there is no reason in the world for your truck to need modifying.

I'd start with doing a voltage drop test on the battery cables and ground straps. No matter how they look or how new, until proven good via testing, they are suspect.
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I was thinking cables as well. I have seen them corrode up to a foot from the end under the insulation!
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[vexvader]

Originally Posted by Tx Firefighter

You shouldn't need to resort to modifying for a Ford solenoid. When working properly, there is no reason in the world for your truck to need modifying.

I'd start with doing a voltage drop test on the battery cables and ground straps. No matter how they look or how new, until proven good via testing, they are suspect.
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I will clean up all connections and see if this helps. What doesn't make sense to me is how putting a new starter on it solves the problem for six months.

Does the solenoid ware out after in gets too hot so many times?


If the issue is the solenoid getting too hot why don't I have the same problem with a new starter and why does it take six months to a year before I have problems?
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[Tx Firefighter]

If you have manifolds and reasonably routed exhaust pipes, the starter getting too hot shouldn't be much of an issue.

Don't rule out the cables. I've seen beautiful cables that when slit open, were corroded horribly inside.
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[VetteVet]

Regardless of the debate on whether the modification is really necessary. It does have a beneficial effect of alleviating the high current draw through the ignition key switch circuit. Just like the headlight relay mod and the alternator conversion, as the old saying goes.
NOTHING SUCCEEDS LIKE SUCCESS.

[vexvader]

Originally Posted by Tx Firefighter

If you have manifolds and reasonably routed exhaust pipes, the starter getting too hot shouldn't be much of an issue.

Don't rule out the cables. I've seen beautiful cables that when slit open, were corroded horribly inside.
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I'll check the cables and get back to you. However it seems that if I had a cable problem, it would be fixed by replacing the starter. If the issue was with the cables I would have the same problem with the new starter. Whenever I replace the starter I have no problems for 6-9 months.
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[Rufton]

Oil dripping on starter can cause failure.

I would install new high current cables and clean the terminals.
If you don't want to buy new cables you can check resistances, amperage and voltage drops to verify in spec.

Like TX Firefighter said, a good looking wire can be defective; especially where wire is crimped on terminal. Another option is repair defective wire. I have soldered clean terminals on large wires w/ torch.

I wouldn't be surprised if your starters are of such low quality they can't cope.

Excess timing advance can over stress starter.

[vexvader]

Originally Posted by vexvader

I'll check the cables and get back to you. However it seems that if I had a cable problem, it would be fixed by replacing the starter. If the issue was with the cables I would have the same problem with the new starter. Whenever I replace the starter I have no problems for 6-9 months.
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I meant to say if it is a cable problem it would NOT be fixed by replacing the starter.

I'm going to do a voltage drop test and see what is going on.

I'll let you know.

Thanks for the help guys.
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[Tx Firefighter]

You'd be surprised. Think of a loose battery cable at your battery. You wiggle it and the car will start. Then over time the car won't start again. Wiggle the cable and it starts again. What you're doing it breaking down the corrosion and allowing it to make better contact. Then the corrosion builds up over time again.

You can take an internally corroded battery cable and bend it which will break down some internal corrosion, but it always corrodes again shortly.
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[vexvader]

Originally Posted by Tx Firefighter

You'd be surprised. Think of a loose battery cable at your battery. You wiggle it and the car will start. Then over time the car won't start again. Wiggle the cable and it starts again. What you're doing it breaking down the corrosion and allowing it to make better contact. Then the corrosion builds up over time again.

You can take an internally corroded battery cable and bend it which will break down some internal corrosion, but it always corrodes again shortly.
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Ok. Ill do the voltage check, clean the connections, and if that doesn't fix it, replace the cables and let know know what I find.

Thanks for all the help!
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[Wizzy72]

This "ford" mod makes no sense to me. You are still using the gm solenoid to engage the starter. So now you have 2 solenoids in your circuit. Maybe I'm missing something.
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[vexvader]

Can someone explain this to us? I have the same question.

Does it somehow hotwire the Chevy solenoid on the starter?

I read the entire other thread on starters and still don't get this.

I also didn't get and answer about heat weakining a solenoid above.

I really want to learn exactly how his works because I have had this problem for 10 years.
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[Rufton]

I don't get it either, looks like chevy starter still wont start if chevy solenoid fried. It would make sense if chevy solenoid was completely by-passed.

vexvader, I've only heard of header heat frying starters where header, collector or exhaust pipe is too close to starter.

[VetteVet]

Originally Posted by vexvader

Can someone explain this to us? I have the same question.

Does it somehow hotwire the Chevy solenoid on the starter?

I read the entire other thread on starters and still don't get this.

I also didn't get and answer about heat weakining a solenoid above.

I really want to learn exactly how his works because I have had this problem for 10 years.
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The reason the solenoid won't engage is because of the higher resistance in it's windings due to the excess heat. On the stock truck wiring the solenoid power goes from the positive terminal to the junction bolt on the right fender, across the radiator and back up through the cab, to the key switch. then back out through the cab via the purple wire to the solenoid. This is about 15 feet of wiring and due to the resistance of the wiring. even in good condition it will create quite a voltage drop. If you check it during cranking it might be as low as 10 volts instead of 12.

When you add this to the extra EMF (voltage pressure) needed to overcome the heat resistance it could be enough to keep the solenoid from engaging.

What the remote solenoid does is eliminate all but about three feet of starter solenoid wire. This decreases the voltage drop and lowers the resistance on the starter solenoid. It's even better if it's wired with the jumper to the S terminal right at the solenoid. In most cases the three feet is enough to engage the solenoid. If the solenoid clicks loudly then the remote kit will not help. If it clicks lightly then the kit will help the solenoid to kick out the starter gear and engage the contacts for the starter windings to turn the starter.

Contrary to popular belief. The main cable doesn't even have to be connected on the solenoid for it to engage. The starter just won't turn. Even if the cable is corroded inside, the solenoid will still engage unless it jumps right at the solenoid, then of course you will still need the battery power from the cable there.

Originally Posted by Rufton

I don't get it either, looks like chevy starter still wont start if chevy solenoid fried. It would make sense if chevy solenoid was completely by-passed.
If the solenoid is fried then you are correct and the starter won't turn, but we're talking about heat soak here, where the starter works after the engine cools down.
You can't bypass the Chevy solenoid because it has to kick out the starter gear to engage the flywheel to turn the motor. It may pull up to 60 amps doing this so it takes a good bit of voltage to operate.

vexvader, I've only heard of header heat frying starters where header, collector or exhaust pipe is too close to starter. The starter windings are bigger and there are more of them so it takes a lot of heat to fry a starter, that's why they work when they cool down. Starters are usually burnt out from being engaged for too long at a time.

This is where the cable corrosion comes into play. That causes a high resistance to the starter windings and reduces the voltage available to turn the starter.

This is the best wiring to obtain the least voltage drop to the solenoid. There is no wiring to the solenoid to cause voltage drop.



This illustrates the amount of wiring to get the solenoid to work.




This shows how the solenoid works the starter and the flywheel.



This is a view of the inside of the solenoid and shows how it makes contact between the battery cable and the starter windings when the relay closes.



This one shows the starter cutaway.




Remember it takes a lot more amperage to close the
Chevy solenoid than it does the Ford because the Ford solenoid is just a relay and does not have to engage the starter gear. This is why the kit works.

[VetteVet]

This may also be some help to everyone.

............http://www.misterfixit.com/starttst.htm

[Rufton]

Does that mean a large gauge jumper wire should be used on Chevy solenoid?

[VetteVet]

Originally Posted by Rufton

Does that mean a large gauge jumper wire should be used on Chevy solenoid?

If you mean in the kit then no 12 is enough . Remember the voltage drop is because of the long wire not the gauge of it. I had a picture of a metal jumper some where. I'll look for it.

[VetteVet]

Here you go. I don't know if the auto parts sells it or not. Shouldn't be hard to make one.