Alignment Shop Fail

[Carmen Black]

After buying a perfectly good running truck, I decided I needed to replace the front springs which the PO had cut down to the point they rattled in their pockets. That turned into this.

So after replacing everything but the engine and the sheet metal, I finally made an appointment for the alignment shop. I chose Merchants Tire because it was 2 miles from my house, and I was worried about having a problem with the truck or dragging the non-aligned tires since it hadn't been out of garage in 9 months.

Well the guy at the shop types the VIN number into a handheld computer. The VIN doesn't come up so he just looks at me and says he can't help me.
I ask him what he is talking about and he says if my truck isn't in the computer, he doesn't know how to align it. The he says that my truck probably has shims. I say yes, its probably got a 1/2 inch of shims on each side. He looked at me like I just fell out of the sky. So I just got back in my truck and left.

The good news is the truck ran great and didn't really feel out of alignment. I kept all the shims together that came out of the truck so I could put them back in and pulled the tie rods out as an assembly so that I could match the length of the new MOOG parts and it drove surprisingly well.

It was really nice weather today and I really wanted to get back on the road.
I just didn't think someone had to have a computer tell them how to do an alignment. I guess I have to find some old timer shop to make this happen.

[sduckworth13]

I know the pain, very frustrating finding someone that will do the alignment and get it right even if they are willing. I just knocked my alignment out and I refuse to take it back to the same place. The alignment really wasn't right to begin with. Oh and they won't warranty the alignment, because it was lowered.

[franken]

I'd guess someone here could supply the toe and camber specs for a modern alignment, or you could find them from a manual. If you don't have one I can look in mine if you tell me what year and so on.
I seem to recall that toe and/or camber settings are different w/ radial tires.
You may need to make a few calls to find a shop willing to work on an exotic
I asked a nearby place if they could flush the brake fluid on my Camaro. They said it wouldn't improve performance. Apparently they were unaware that DOT3 fluid absorbs moisture and is supposed to be flushed every other year or so.

[hugger6933]

I would think those specs would be in the book. Isn't it on here somewhere for a download? I have one in the living room but my wife moved it during a clean up and I haven't seen it since. I get so frustrated with the front end thing I run into to this all the time rebuilding wrecks,and I want them all checked. Well there is on place a town over from me that no matter when it is you can call the guy and he can't get you in until the next wed afternoon. You can call him from the parking lot then walk in on him after he talks about how backed up he is then you go in his shop and he is sitting drinking a coke watching tv or something. ARGH!! I makes me want to get a couple of caster camber gauges and a Arnwood toe gauge , and a pair of turn tables and stick them out back by my frame machine and ad another purpose to it. Rant off, Jim

[Lattimer]

I know there are a couple of threads on here on getting a good alignment on our trucks.


FWIW---after the local shop screwed mine up 3 times, I went and bought a Quick Trick alignment tool. Expensive bugger, but fairly easy to use and I can get the truck set better than the shop will, because I take my time and work until its right.

Mine right now drives great. I set it up as best I could get based on the alignment discussions on the board.

Camber R -1.0 degrees L -1.0 deg
Caster R 2.1 degrees L 1.7 degrees
Toe 1/16th inch in


You want camber between -1 and -1.5 degrees for handling. 0 gives best tire wear. Caster you want as much as possible, but typically you need more on the right to compensate for the crown in the road. Toe can be anywhere between 0 and 1/16th inch, out gives better turning and in is more stable in a straight line.

I'd like to get more caster, as it promotes steering return, but that was all I could get without throwing the camber off, and without modifying stuff.

[Trackbar]

Being an Alignment Tech for to many years now. Alot of the newer alignment machines only go so far back on there specs. Any shop worth it can look up the specs on the internet unless you bring them. S-10 pickups still used shims so they should know how to adjust them.

[piecesparts]

I have a shop in my local area, that even though it has the newer equipment, will do their alignments the same way his father and grandfather used to do them. They will do lowered and standard suspensions and I have had no issue with their work. If their work appears to be out of the respectable bands, then they will work to make it right. Small town and old thinking is always a good staple in life.

[notsolo]

Bruce's "Just a Pick a PU " has some spec.s on a 72... My 2 cents would be to do it yourself,... get it as close as possible with tape measure. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...318544&page=27

[Carmen Black]

Lattimer, thanks for the suggestion and the specs. I think I will DIY it. The only time my vehicles go to the shop are for inspection and alignment it really makes me nervous turning my truck over to someone else.

I ordered some alignment tools from Summit. Quick Trick was back ordered so I am going to try another brand. I may box string it this afternoon just to see what it looks like. I feel it isn't too far off. I ordered a tread depth gauge just to keep an eye on wear. I will probably only drive the truck 2000-3000 miles a year, so the tires will probably expire before they wear out.

[Lattimer]

Originally Posted by piecesparts

I have a shop in my local area, that even though it has the newer equipment, will do their alignments the same way his father and grandfather used to do them. They will do lowered and standard suspensions and I have had no issue with their work. If their work appears to be out of the respectable bands, then they will work to make it right. Small town and old thinking is always a good staple in life.

Shops like that are rare these days.

[Lattimer]

Originally Posted by Carmen Black

Lattimer, thanks for the suggestion and the specs. I think I will DIY it. The only time my vehicles go to the shop are for inspection and alignment it really makes me nervous turning my truck over to someone else.

I ordered some alignment tools from Summit. Quick Trick was back ordered so I am going to try another brand. I may box string it this afternoon just to see what it looks like. I feel it isn't too far off. I ordered a tread depth gauge just to keep an eye on wear. I will probably only drive the truck 2000-3000 miles a year, so the tires will probably expire before they wear out.

Getting it to where the tire wear is acceptable is pretty easy. Harder part is getting it to go down the road straight, at least in my experience.



This thread has a ton of info on aligning our trucks: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=487363&page=9
It's long, but there is a lot of good stuff in there.

[twouvakind]

Shops are rare indeed but if you were in a 50 mile radius of Avenel, NJ....http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=642058

Cold comfort be in the Carolina's and such but they are still (reputable shop with experience) out there

[Fitz]

Originally Posted by Carmen Black

After buying a perfectly good running truck, I decided I needed to replace the front springs which the PO had cut down to the point they rattled in their pockets. That turned into this.

So after replacing everything but the engine and the sheet metal, I finally made an appointment for the alignment shop. I chose Merchants Tire because it was 2 miles from my house, and I was worried about having a problem with the truck or dragging the non-aligned tires since it hadn't been out of garage in 9 months.

Well the guy at the shop types the VIN number into a handheld computer. The VIN doesn't come up so he just looks at me and says he can't help me.
I ask him what he is talking about and he says if my truck isn't in the computer, he doesn't know how to align it. The he says that my truck probably has shims. I say yes, its probably got a 1/2 inch of shims on each side. He looked at me like I just fell out of the sky. So I just got back in my truck and left.

The good news is the truck ran great and didn't really feel out of alignment. I kept all the shims together that came out of the truck so I could put them back in and pulled the tie rods out as an assembly so that I could match the length of the new MOOG parts and it drove surprisingly well.

It was really nice weather today and I really wanted to get back on the road.
I just didn't think someone had to have a computer tell them how to do an alignment. I guess I have to find some old timer shop to make this happen.

The problem with most franchise shops id they have NO manuals, only a computer. If the franchise company didn't enter the information into their software you are out of luck.

[Bigdav160]

Modern alignment equipment is design to be used with trained monkeys. You don't have to know alignment basics just push buttons.

Obviously the tech in the OP's story does not know how to do an alignment.

<sign> That's today's world

Edit - to Fitz's comment, there's nothing to stop them from aligning the vehicle. The spec only make the screen change from red to green. Alignments should be done by numbers not colors

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Carmen Black

After buying a perfectly good running truck, I decided I needed to replace the front springs which the PO had cut down to the point they rattled in their pockets. That turned into this.

So after replacing everything but the engine and the sheet metal, I finally made an appointment for the alignment shop. I chose Merchants Tire because it was 2 miles from my house, and I was worried about having a problem with the truck or dragging the non-aligned tires since it hadn't been out of garage in 9 months.

Well the guy at the shop types the VIN number into a handheld computer. The VIN doesn't come up so he just looks at me and says he can't help me.
I ask him what he is talking about and he says if my truck isn't in the computer, he doesn't know how to align it. The he says that my truck probably has shims. I say yes, its probably got a 1/2 inch of shims on each side. He looked at me like I just fell out of the sky. So I just got back in my truck and left.

The good news is the truck ran great and didn't really feel out of alignment. I kept all the shims together that came out of the truck so I could put them back in and pulled the tie rods out as an assembly so that I could match the length of the new MOOG parts and it drove surprisingly well.

It was really nice weather today and I really wanted to get back on the road.
I just didn't think someone had to have a computer tell them how to do an alignment. I guess I have to find some old timer shop to make this happen.

Make sure you have 1/16" toe-in before you drive it back to the shop. Use a tape measure, have a friend hang it on the tread and measure the front as high as you can without hitting the frame, and do the same on the backside of the tire hanging the tape exactly the same. Do it two or three times to make sure you duplicate the measuring the same front of the front tires to the rear of the front tires. It's not perfect, but might save some tread. Every time you adjust it, roll it backwards a foot or two then back forward for a re-measurement.

You can also "rough in" the camber by parking on a flat pavement then using a large "L" square laying on the ground, measure the top and bottom of the rim lips from any given point and not the differences. Lay it out on a sheet of cardboard then use a protractor to see what the camber angle is. Again, every time you adjust it roll it back a foot or two and back forward before measuring it again.

I don't have any shade tree way to set the caster, I'd just concentrate on using equal shims when adjusting camber on the upper control arms to retain whatever caster it has in it.

Maybe someone else can chime in on shade-tree caster LOL. I've had nothing but bad luck with dealership alignment techs, I've had good luck with "alignment only" businesses, particularly private owned not franchise.

Some interesting links on the subject for DIY.

http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-foru...-gauge.534269/
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/susp...alignment.html

[Lattimer]

Originally Posted by twouvakind

Shops are rare indeed but if you were in a 50 mile radius of Avenel, NJ....http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=642058

Cold comfort be in the Carolina's and such but they are still (reputable shop with experience) out there

Too far for me. I go up there occasionally for work, we have a plant right next to the prison. But good to know there are still some good ones.

[eightbanger]

Originally Posted by Lattimer

I know there are a couple of threads on here on getting a good alignment on our trucks.


FWIW---after the local shop screwed mine up 3 times, I went and bought a Quick Trick alignment tool. Expensive bugger, but fairly easy to use and I can get the truck set better than the shop will, because I take my time and work until its right.

Mine right now drives great. I set it up as best I could get based on the alignment discussions on the board.

Camber R -1.0 degrees L -1.0 deg
Caster R 2.1 degrees L 1.7 degrees
Toe 1/16th inch in


You want camber between -1 and -1.5 degrees for handling. 0 gives best tire wear. Caster you want as much as possible, but typically you need more on the right to compensate for the crown in the road. Toe can be anywhere between 0 and 1/16th inch, out gives better turning and in is more stable in a straight line.

I'd like to get more caster, as it promotes steering return, but that was all I could get without throwing the camber off, and without modifying stuff.

I get how to measure and adjust the Camber, but I don't get how to measure the Caster to see if it's out prior to adjusting....how did you do it Shawn?

[Andy4639]

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. The guy that does mine is in his Grandfather's old 2 bay gas station and he gets mine dead on. I've never warn a tire out since I bought my truck back in 1986 and started taking it to him. He has the machine but he also has common since + a whole bunch of manuals. After the first couple of times of me taking the truck to him he now has it in the computer.

[CastIron]

I put new tie rod ends on my non lowered truck and set it to -.25 for camber, +1.5 caster, and toed in just a little. It steers pretty nice and the steering wheel goes right back to center after turning.

[steelhorse]

Hey Carmen Black. I work at a shop called County Line Auto Service just north of Wake Forest in Youngsville. If you need an alignment just call the shop and we can handle it. I had done many older cars with custom suspensions. Sorry for the shamless plug but really it's not that hard to align an old truck.

[Lattimer]

Originally Posted by eightbanger

I get how to measure and adjust the Camber, but I don't get how to measure the Caster to see if it's out prior to adjusting....how did you do it Shawn?

The Quick Trick tool I have has a procedure to measure it. Basically you put a digital level perpendicular to the wheel. Turn 3/4 turn of the wheel in, and zero the level. Turn 3/4 turn out and read the measurement, that is the caster.

[leftybass209]

I have a friend that owns an engine shop and teaches a lot of different auto tech classes at the community college, and also my wife's uncle works at UTI in Sacramento and both of them say the same things about the up-and-coming technicians; the majority couldn't wrench their way out of a paper bag!

[eightbanger]

Originally Posted by Lattimer

The Quick Trick tool I have has a procedure to measure it. Basically you put a digital level perpendicular to the wheel. Turn 3/4 turn of the wheel in, and zero the level. Turn 3/4 turn out and read the measurement, that is the caster.

Thanks Shawn, thought there might be a special tool required.

[Lattimer]

Originally Posted by eightbanger

Thanks Shawn, thought there might be a special tool required.

If you have a digital level, you could probably make up something from steel or wood and bungee cord it to the tire to get the level perpendicular tot he tire, then do the sweep.


FWIW, I use 2 pieces of plexiglass with grease in between under each tire for turn tables.

[eightbanger]

Originally Posted by Lattimer

FWIW, I use 2 pieces of plexiglass with grease in between under each tire for turn tables.