ENGINE - to Scrap or not to scrap

[Hansome]

Hi all,

I had the opportunity to purchase a inline 6 250 complete engine and sm420 box, for a spare for my 66 C10. Here in the UK there not easy to get hold of.
It was a great price so couldn't turn it down - its been sitting in the bed of the truck for a week and i finally got time to off load it today, and as the weather was nice and sunny i skipped the afternoon from work and tore down the engine.


Its my first inline 6 - I've got one in the truck and i wanted this one to work on a bit to enhance the head etc etc and a spare engine.

It came out of a imported '52 3100 which the owner was putting in a 350 SBC!he only had it running once and there was a leak from the water pump and that was all he knew about it.
numbers showed it was a 250 and thats what i wanted.

got it all apart this afternoon and the head looks good, water pump impeller was pretty much rusted away which left loads of rusty sludge in the water jackets!!

i found a crack by the pump so decided to take the head off too and this is what i found....







on the head bottom of the head Gasket (you can just about see it) it had squashed into the crack effectively filling it



SO....... is it scrap?

Does anyone know if i should use or not use it?

any thoughts much appreciated

Dan

[aerotruk63]

I saw on the web that someone cleaned the block all up, put a glass top on it and made a coffee table.
I can understand your dilemma when they are few and far between over there.

[Hansome]

Originally Posted by aerotruk63

I saw on the web that someone cleaned the block all up, put a glass top on it and made a coffee table.
I can understand your dilemma when they are few and far between over there.

HAA HAA (are you saying that its crap?)
i guess i can sit behind it on the sofa and make broom broom noises....

...

...

...

but on a serious note? what should i do

[60chevyjim]

it can be welded to repair the crack if that's the only one it has.

[Hansome]

Originally Posted by 60chevyjim

it can be welded to repair the crack if that's the only one it has.

Hi ChevyJim,

yes thats the only one, it looks as if the bolt may have been over torqued and over the period of use cracked the block.
Ive been looking at the best way to weld it, Is the block cast iron? or forged steel?
can i drill a hole to stop crack from spreading V groove the crack and mig weld up in mild steel?

or if cast iron i will look at pre heating and brazing i suppose.?

thanks
D

[aerotruk63]

I have the Technical Service Department manual for 1963 in front of me. They define the 230 block as Cast Alloy Iron under material description. I'm assuming the 250 is of the same material.
I have no experience welding cast iron.
YouTube has some video's related to this subject. Might want to look at a few before deciding. And to think we would simply cast them aside in America as they are of plenty.

[Blue666(2)]

You might want to get it magna fluxxed (magnetic dye checked) or crack checked to see there are other cracks in the head or block before proceeding. You would hate to find out that ather cracks are present if get just one fixed.

[Hansome]

Originally Posted by aerotruk63

I have the Technical Service Department manual for 1963 in front of me. They define the 230 block as Cast Alloy Iron under material description. I'm assuming the 250 is of the same material.
I have no experience welding cast iron.
YouTube has some video's related to this subject. Might want to look at a few before deciding. And to think we would simply cast them aside in America as they are of plenty.

Yeah i kinda knew it would be cast iron, i know it can be done. ideally id find a replacement but here its not so easy.
will finish stripping the block and clean it up and see where we go from there...?

d

[Hansome]

Originally Posted by Blue666(2)

You might want to get it magna fluxxed (magnetic dye checked) or crack checked to see there are other cracks in the head or block before proceeding. You would hate to find out that ather cracks are present if get just one fixed.

Cheers B666

I agree with that, I will clean it up and get it taken to a machine shop. I was just trying to keep the £/$ in my pocket.

Initially i brought it for the Head, anything else was a bonus, but it seems wasteful to ditch it if it can be fixed.

D

[61_FL_Apache]

I would go for the coffee table idea..

Unless its a numbers matching block, I would scrap it.

[Brad54]

They're hard to find over there, so I would exhaust every avenue for repair before scrapping it.
Strip it down to the bare block and then take it to a machine shop and have them look it over and give you an opinion.

It could be pinned, and then coated from the back side. I know a racer who was a top-notch engine builder for 50 years: He used "Liquid Glass" on blocks and heads that had been taken to within an inch of their lives, and on aluminum heads and blocks with porosity problems. It's the same stuff they dumped in crank cases for the Cash For Clunkers program over here.

Pour it in, run the engine and pressurize the cooling system, and it forces the solution into any cracks and seals it.

On yours, because of where it's cracked, I think I'd use a head stud to minimize the chance of it happening again.

That damage isn't catastrophic.

Oh, my friend also regularly repaired freeze-cracked 409 and 348 blocks, using cast iron stick-welding rods with the flux stripped off so it was just the cast iron, and then he'd TIG-weld the cracks closed. Go an inch, then hit the area with a pick hammer and stress-relieve it as it cooled, and when it was cool enough to touch with his bare hand, he'd do the next inch. When the repair was done, it was almost invisible.

-Brad

['63GENIII]

Pretty sure it can be welded if another block is that hard to come by. Years ago, I had an LS7 (the big block version) in a boat. I went to light it off after a rebuild and had advanced the timing way to far. First crank, it kicked back, forcing the starter to move away from the flywheel which in turn snapped the starter mounting ear clear off. I thought I had just lost the block. I ended up taking it to a great welding shop close by, they ground down into the crack all of the way around and stick welded it with some sort of rod that was for cast iron. That starter pad held up for a bunch of years and hundreds of hot starts when it would still kick a little. Id say get it welded and have a machine shop straighten out the machined faces. If you're going to spend less than finding a new engine, great. If the repair estimates cost more than sourcing a new one, you've got a great coffee table base! Either way its a win win.

[jtrichard]

Stick weld with 310 stainless works on iron.... NI rod is what 63GENIII is talking about ( I would find a GOOD professional welder and see what they think) worth a try or you can still do the table if you dont like what you end up with

[urmyboyblue]

It looks to me like repairing it might be possible, but I am not a welder. It is on a water sealing surface- not too much of an issue, and into a head bolt hole- big issue. I would take it to a welder and see if it can be fixed. Only you can determine if it is worth it to you. You will have to have the block decked, the head bolt redrilled and tapped, and remachined on the other mating surface afterwards. Not going to be cheap.

[Captainfab]

That should be able to be welded. I typically use a nickel rod on cast iron. If there is enough meat there, I would also drill and tap for a small bolt horizontally so that torquing that head bolt doesn't try and open that crack back up.

[Hansome]

Thank you all for your replies, it does give me some hope.. and a lot to think about.
if i was in the US i would re purpose it (coffee table, boat anchor) but if my leads for finding one here die out then we will get it repaired.
machining here is more expensive than the States, and finding a "good one" is probably about the same odds.
Will clean up and take for analysis at the machine shop...... in a few weeks.
D

[Hansome]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

That should be able to be welded. I typically use a nickel rod on cast iron. If there is enough meat there, I would also drill and tap for a small bolt horizontally so that torquing that head bolt doesn't try and open that crack back up.

CF -

hi, yes I'm hopeful, as i also feel its salvageable as along a the cost doesn't go off the scale - i needs some cash for the "vroom-vroom" parts to go in it

will update with what happened next

D

[cg285]

inspect the head good at that same area as the head is MORE likely to crack from over tightening - at the corner bolt hole to the water jacket.

there are many welding methods but most not practical, in my opinion, on a block. furnace welding at the top. flame spray maybe. i've done a lot of flame spray but only for building up bearing surfaces not engine blocks so i can't verify that process. tig with silicon bronze maybe?
i would pin it. check with a company called locknstich. there are different pins and they make one that pulls the crack together which i believe would fit this application better

[chevy_mike]

Actually that is a common issue with these series of engines, more so on the 193, 230, 250 ones as the 292 had a taller deck height and were not as prone to this.

You would need to have someone weld it correctly. After that, use head studs (ARP) and not head bolts. This will add some strength. IIRC I think ARP recommends about 10 ft./lbs. less torque on those end studs, to help prevent this again.

In all honesty, the cost to benefit ratio is very low. Unless you are married to this engine, I would scrap it.

[The Rocknrod]

I was going to ask if you had a large boat - but I won't do that.

[vince1]

V it out, then heat first and weld like Captainfab suggests, followed by a helicoil? Can it be draw filed flat or is that stuff too hard? It might still need some block seal afterwards.

Thanks for the heads up on what to look for. I might be doing mine this summer to get rid of that pesky rear seal leak.

[uber cool]

welcome aboard. I'm like you love the straight 6 engine. and yes they are hard to get hold of bits over here. Have one in my 59 Apache and just rebuilt (top end) in my mates C10 then fitted twin carbs and exhaust manifold
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...656288&page=11

[uber cool]

forgot to say I reckon it can be welded as others have suggested by getting plenty heat into it first then helicoil. But in the UK you have to really really want to run an inline 6 as it will cost you more than rebuilding a v8 350, as you'll end up importing most parts, compared to a v8 that you can get parts in the UK as they are more common. So make that decision before you start spending money.

[Hansome]

Originally Posted by uber cool

welcome aboard. I'm like you love the straight 6 engine. and yes they are hard to get hold of bits over here. Have one in my 59 Apache and just rebuilt (top end) in my mates C10 then fitted twin carbs and exhaust manifold
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...656288&page=11

Hi Andy,

I have been watching your complete build on here and was going to get in touch cause i see you pimped an inline.
I hoped you'd comment - we nearly met each other last week at NSRA swap meet...
Was talking to Rian and Martin and they said (and from your posts) you took Martins Inline to use to replace some bits missing on yours.

I do like an inline 6 and yes i know its going to potentially cost more - Currently have one in This....


(gonna put a wanted add up on RnS and NSRA forum to see if there are any blocks about.)

V8 350 is the back up, back up plan, should all else fail but id rather try my hand at beefing up a 6 -

Planned on doing the spare engine up with a similar set up to yours Langdon's, off/cliffords slightly bigger cam etc etc
Then drop that in the 66' as it my daily work vehicle and then re fresh the current 250 as it getting high on the miles.

wanted to pick your brain about your new set up etc

i may be in touch it thats ok?

cheers
D

[TJ's Chevy]

Let me throw some encouragement to ya on having some FUN with the 6 rather then going the common rout.....Unless you decide to go the big block route. lol! If worst case I'd look for another block, out in your neck of the woods ALOT of guys Love the inline 6 over the v8. I know a guy here in the states that you could call and talk with about getting another block....he's Super nice and will work with you on pricing and shipping. But that's if ya don't wanna fix this block up. Beefing up the 6 will cost more than a v8, but you get something that's just so much better. Ultimate decision is yours though. Onto that crack, I'm wondering if that happened because of over tightening the head bolts. On a 194/230/250 those two front bolts are only supposed to be tightened at 70-75 foot pounds and the rest at 90. Here's a picture of my 292. Cost about as much as a 383 after beefing up and all the shiny parts. LOL!