Performance vs Cost Trade off for Street Driving (No Limit Parts example)

[Skippy77]

Sorry, this is pretty long.

So there is no question that the more you are willing to spend on your suspension, the better performance you can expect to get, but at what point does the return on that investment start to severely diminish for us guys who are primarily running the streets? It's like 600 hp on street tires, whats the point unless you like to see a lot of smoke. Or does it never really diminish and I should stop crying and make it rain money in the name of good handling? This is the question I'm currently trying to answer for myself and I would love to get feedback from people who are more knowledgeable than me on the subject!

For this discussion I'm keeping it to coils or coilovers, and new OE brake parts in each example to keep this about suspension and not braking. I'm using ECE (because they seem to be an extremely popular "lower cost" route), and No Limit (because they seem to be a popular "higher cost" route). These are the routes I am looking at currently, you could probably substitute many other well respected companies in these examples and come up with pretty similar numbers. In my case, because of the very poor condition of the existing parts, my starting cost may be higher than others.

So Option 1 (Near Factory suspension rebuild with 4/6 Drop) - $3,043
- ECE 4/6 Drop Kit - $800
- ECE Trailing Arms + Crossmember - $690
- ECE Front End Rebuild Kit (Moog Components) - $525
- ECE OE Replacement Brake Calipers & Rotors - $290
- ECE Rear Drum Rebuild Kit - $239
- ECE Power Steering Box (Quick Ratio) - $374
- Consumables - $125

So for a little over $3,000 I get a 4/6 drop, all new trailing arms, all new bushing, all new OE brake components and a quick ratio power steering set up. Probably results in a OK driving, slightly better than factory ride? Now what is the next step up for most bang for the buck? The 2 most obvious routes to me are adding swaybars, or replacing the KYB shocks with Ridetech shocks. Either option adds about $500.

So Option 2 (Near Factory suspension with 4/6 Drop with Swaybars OR Ridetech RQ shocks) - $3,500-$3,600
- All parts in Option 1
- No Limit/ECE Swaybars - $430, OR Ridetech RQ shocks - $640

So for $500-$600 bucks I've added swaybars, or Ridetech shocks. Probably a pretty sound investment in the handling department either way? If I wanted to add both I'd be looking at about $4,000, and at that price the No Limit Trailing Arm System starts making sense...

So Option 3 (Factory Crossmember with Performance parts) - $4,008
- ECE Front End Rebuild Kit - $525
- ECE 2.5" Drop Spindles - $249
- ECE Front Lowering Springs - $114
- Ridetech RQ Shocks (Front) - $270
- ECE OE Replacement Brake Calipers & Rotors - $290
- ECE Front Swaybar - $188
- ECE Power Steering Box (Quick Ratio) - $374
- No Limit Trailing Arm System - $1,395
- ECE Rear Drum Rebuild Kit - $239
- No Limit Rear Sway Bar
- Consumables - $125

OK, so another $500 jump and I have a sweet long travel coilover rear suspension and ridetech shocks up front with swaybars holding the corners together. Probably a pretty good street machine at this point? So is this where it makes sense to stop? Or is going for coilovers in the back first the wrong move completely? Would I have been better served to go with a Wide Ride IFS in the front and stock suspension in the rear? Then you have the final option...

So Option 4 (Complete No Limit System) - $5,593
- No Limit Wide Ride IFS - $3,595
- No Limit Trailing Arm System - $1,395
- ECE Rear Drum Rebuild Kit - $239
- No Limit Rear Sway Bar
- Consumables - $125

$1,500 bucks later I have what is certainly a bad ass suspension. But is it more bad ass than makes sense for a street queen? I don't know! If I could get some feedback from people with a whole lot more expertise than me I would greatly appreciate it!

-Brian "Skippy"

[indymachinist]

I understand where you are coming from completely. I haven't finished my truck yet, but I am on the stock crossmember, good lowering springs, good shocks, sway bars, and faster steering box path.

In my personal opinion, unless you insist on lowering your truck all the way to the ground, or tracking it competitively, at least 50% of these fancy over the top suspension systems are unneeded and just end up being "bling."

[Riveted1]

I think for a street cruiser, the higher up on the ladder you go, the less benefit you will see. It's kind of like building up an engine, you pay more and more to eek out smaller and smaller gains. In the end, it all comes down to what you are willing to spend, and what look you want and not much else.

BUT, I will say that front and rear sway bars made a HUGE difference on my burb and a slightly less noticeable difference on 2 trucks where I just put a sway bar on the front. It was an immediate seat of the pants difference, and all 3 were/are just street cruisers. The burb and one of the trucks are lowered 4/4 and 4/6 respectively, and the other truck was at stock height.

[robnolimit]

Great comparison, and consideration. I'd like to throw in some additional info to help out.

When it comes to the OE front suspension, the diminishing return rule is in full effect. Rebuilding all of the components puts it back to the OE spec, which is about as tight as it will ever be. Sway bars, A-Arms that correct the Caster, and shocks will be the biggest suspension improvements. Also, A rack & pinion 'can' help with the road fell and drive-a-bility. I say 'can' because some of the rack kits on the market will have more bumpsteer than the OE box and links.

Consider the installation. Everything listed is a bolt-on for the most part. Some components will require other mods, and some welding, grinding, fitting, drilling... Be sure you can tackle the job.

Ground clearance. With a 4" front drop, the OE sub is starting to get close to the ground. Not yet in the headache zone, but close, and it will hit from time to time. Our WideRide increases the ground clearance by 3" over stock. But, this comes at a price. The engine is mounted 1 1/2" higher than OE, and we recommend that the trans be raised 1" to help with driveline angles. This will all fit fine, if you have a 'high tunnel' floor, but if not, some mods may be needed.

Swapping to a rack & pinion, on the OE sub or any aftermarket IFS, is a steering mod that will effect the rest of the steering system. Meaning, U-joints, steering shafts, and columns. The OE column passes a good ways through the firewall into the engine bay. This 'long' column forces very tight steering angles when a rack is used, and can cause steering bind. Most aftermarket columns are the same length as the OE. We worked with IDIDIT to make a direct bolt in column for the C10's that is shorter on the pass through end, and allows a softer U-joint angle. I would recommend this on any rack swap.

Track width/drop/wheel & tire size. The OE track width is appx 64 1/2". Some disk swaps and spindles change that a bit. Our WideRide IFS has a track width of 63". This can be a plus for lowered trucks running wide wheel and tire combos.

Weight may also be a factor. Many aftermarket parts, A-arms, spindles and brakes, are actually heavier than the OE parts they replace. Adding weight to the moving suspension components is adding 'un-sprung' weight, and this is the fastest way to kill ride quality and performance. Our WideRide is appx 170 lbs lighter than the full OE sub and suspension. Most of the weight savings is in the crossmember itself, but a good 40 lbs is cut from un-sprung weight.

OK, we all know that quality costs. I have heard a lot of people complain after they bought cheaper items (in any realm) due to poor quality and performance. No one ever complains when they buy the best (once the price shock is gone). One of the big factors that effects these purchases is the time factor. In some of your comparisons, you can buy a piece at a time as the money flows in. Honestly, this is why some many projects have a mis-match of parts. Most guys can budget in a few hundred a month, but that does make it tougher to step up to full package suspensions. Remember that the goal here is to get the truck on the road and have some fun driving it.

** Now I have a question for you. ** What if, you could buy a suspension package for your truck, the same way you buy a commuter car, a quad, a big screen, or a new refrigerator. With a few hundred dollars down, and a fixed monthly payment(like $225 a month) for a set time. Would that option change the parts you buy? Would that help you get the project done?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

Great comparison, and consideration. I'd like to throw in some additional info to help out.

When it comes to the OE front suspension, the diminishing return rule is in full effect. Rebuilding all of the components puts it back to the OE spec, which is about as tight as it will ever be. Sway bars, A-Arms that correct the Caster, and shocks will be the biggest suspension improvements. Also, A rack & pinion 'can' help with the road fell and drive-a-bility. I say 'can' because some of the rack kits on the market will have more bumpsteer than the OE box and links.

Consider the installation. Everything listed is a bolt-on for the most part. Some components will require other mods, and some welding, grinding, fitting, drilling... Be sure you can tackle the job.

Ground clearance. With a 4" front drop, the OE sub is starting to get close to the ground. Not yet in the headache zone, but close, and it will hit from time to time. Our WideRide increases the ground clearance by 3" over stock. But, this comes at a price. The engine is mounted 1 1/2" higher than OE, and we recommend that the trans be raised 1" to help with driveline angles. This will all fit fine, if you have a 'high tunnel' floor, but if not, some mods may be needed.

Swapping to a rack & pinion, on the OE sub or any aftermarket IFS, is a steering mod that will effect the rest of the steering system. Meaning, U-joints, steering shafts, and columns. The OE column passes a good ways through the firewall into the engine bay. This 'long' column forces very tight steering angles when a rack is used, and can cause steering bind. Most aftermarket columns are the same length as the OE. We worked with IDIDIT to make a direct bolt in column for the C10's that is shorter on the pass through end, and allows a softer U-joint angle. I would recommend this on any rack swap.

Track width/drop/wheel & tire size. The OE track width is appx 64 1/2". Some disk swaps and spindles change that a bit. Our WideRide IFS has a track width of 63". This can be a plus for lowered trucks running wide wheel and tire combos.

Weight may also be a factor. Many aftermarket parts, A-arms, spindles and brakes, are actually heavier than the OE parts they replace. Adding weight to the moving suspension components is adding 'un-sprung' weight, and this is the fastest way to kill ride quality and performance. Our WideRide is appx 170 lbs lighter than the full OE sub and suspension. Most of the weight savings is in the crossmember itself, but a good 40 lbs is cut from un-sprung weight.

OK, we all know that quality costs. I have heard a lot of people complain after they bought cheaper items (in any realm) due to poor quality and performance. No one ever complains when they buy the best (once the price shock is gone). One of the big factors that effects these purchases is the time factor. In some of your comparisons, you can buy a piece at a time as the money flows in. Honestly, this is why some many projects have a mis-match of parts. Most guys can budget in a few hundred a month, but that does make it tougher to step up to full package suspensions. Remember that the goal here is to get the truck on the road and have some fun driving it.

** Now I have a question for you. ** What if, you could buy a suspension package for your truck, the same way you buy a commuter car, a quad, a big screen, or a new refrigerator. With a few hundred dollars down, and a fixed monthly payment(like $225 a month) for a set time. Would that option change the parts you buy? Would that help you get the project done?

The answer to this question seems obvious to me.... The #1 project killer and/or reason for mis-matched set-ups is financing 'upgrades' while maintaining lifes responsibilities. Nine times out of ten, to be able to upgrade to a matched set-up on financed terms is money better spent vs patching various components.

[Skippy77]

Thanks for jumping in the conversation Rob. Really appreciate it!

To answer your question, for me personally. A financing option would depend greatly on terms and interest rate, especially interest rate. I generally do not finance what I consider to be luxury items, but in the name of advancing the project I would defiantly look into it if the penalty (interest) was not significant. I could see it helping me get to the finish line just a little bit faster.

My case may be slightly different than most in that I have already set aside a substantial portion of my projects budget. My problem is when I made the decision to purchase and restore this truck I established a budget ($30K not counting the original truck). I have just finished the tear down, assessed the rust damage and am now attempting to prepare an estimate that gets me to a completed truck, with everything I wanted, inside my original estimate. My first pass wasn't successful. When I added up all the expected costs and added a 10% contingency I landed around $40K....

Now that was with me doing the rust repair and some paint prep, a professional paint job, a complete No Limit Suspension, a 383 or LQ9, a T-56 transmission, and every other nut, bolt, seal, etc. from the tires to the radio knob. (I even budgeted for the new column you mentioned because I've researched this stuff do death )

So now I'm faced with the painful decision I imagine all of us face...do I up the budget, or make sacrifices? And if I have to make sacrifices, how can I do it in a way that leaves me happy with the end truck. The last thing I want to do is spend $30K on a truck I'm not happy with!

So when it comes to suspension, the least I can see spending is $3,000, the most I can see spending is $5,500. Where in that $2500 space is the sweet spot that leaves me with the street truck of my dreams? Or do I need to look for cuts elsewhere?

-Brian "Skippy"

[chevy-fun]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

** Now I have a question for you. ** What if, you could buy a suspension package for your truck, the same way you buy a commuter car, a quad, a big screen, or a new refrigerator. With a few hundred dollars down, and a fixed monthly payment(like $225 a month) for a set time. Would that option change the parts you buy? Would that help you get the project done?

Is this what you hinted to in another post. If so, when will we be able to hear more details.

[jim-bob]

..So Skippy..Which way are you going?
I have a 67 GMC with factory Leaf springs..I am NOT a mechanic (I deconstruct'em, pay to have'em built back) So most of the time I have to get advise and suggestions on the best way to go..I've asked Rob w/NoLimit his opinion on what to replace the Leaf springs with and he suggested the Fat Bar 4 link system..At first I was considering the Trailing Arms..I'm still a little apprehensive. The Fat Bar kit looks like it mounts on the outsides of the Frame?? I don't mind admitting that a lot of this goes over my 70 y.o. head..
It sure looks like you have done a lot of researching..I would like to see how you play this out..What's your opinion on the Fat Bar 4 Link?

[dec010974]

Hello to all.
Just to chime in, this is just my opinion. I don't want to step on any toes. I think most of us want a bad azz, truck. If you ask each one of us, what's the recipe for a bad azz truck, everyone has a different taste bud. One of my ingredients for a bad azz truck is performance. As I build my truck, I try to make things better, from the performance side of things. For example, LSx engines are better performers than traditional 350's. I run a Lq9, .030. in my truck. Im not saying that 350's aren't good, but the R&D from GM has made LSx available for us, to use, in our trucks. Suspension companies such as Hotchkis, Nolimit, Scott's, and PB have given us performance, upgraded suspension components to use as upgrades. I am currently looking at different IFS. I say if the budget allows, buy the best you can buy. Skippy77, I pondered this same thought and want to start with the best canvas my budget will allow. I wish my wallet had the ability to purchase a new frame from NoLimit. Boy that would be nice.

[jim-bob]

Originally Posted by dec010974

Hello to all.
Just to chime in, this is just my opinion. I don't want to step on any toes. I think most of us want a bad azz, truck. If you ask each one of us, what's the recipe for a bad azz truck, everyone has a different taste bud. One of my ingredients for a bad azz truck is performance. As I build my truck, I try to make things better, from the performance side of things. For example, LSx engines are better performers than traditional 350's. I run a Lq9, .030. in my truck. Im not saying that 350's aren't good, but the R&D from GM has made LSx available for us, to use, in our trucks. Suspension companies such as Hotchkis, Nolimit, Scott's, and PB have given us performance, upgraded suspension components to use as upgrades. I am currently looking at different IFS. I say if the budget allows, buy the best you can buy. Skippy77, I pondered this same thought and want to start with the best canvas my budget will allow. I wish my wallet had the ability to purchase a new frame from NoLimit. Boy that would be nice.

Whats your opinion on RideTech? Thanks

[dec010974]

I don't know jack about there other stuff but the rq shocks are great. They the best thing installed on my truck. Lol. The price is high but I can't wait to buy some for my 2ndoor Tahoe.

[Skippy77]

Jim-bob:

I haven't quite decided yet, I'm just starting the rust repairs so I still have some time to decide. Since I posted this original thread, thanks to Rob's input, I've gone back and done more research into the factory capabilities and really thought about what I'm looking for out of my truck. The number one thing I go back to is I want this truck to be "fun" to drive so I will spend more time in it, and I know from previous vehicles there is nothing fun about a vehicle that handles like a turd. So in my case I'm leaning toward shaving money out of the motor and putting it in the suspension to stay in budget. I think sourcing a used/refurbished LS as opposed to a new built LS or 383 will get me there and still leave me with enough power to make one wheel tire fires all day long.

For your specific question about the Fat Bar 4 Link. I am personally leaning more toward No Limit's new Trailing Arm Kit because it is similarly priced and does not require welding. I don't know that I trust my welds for suspension parts! I could tack everything in place and have a professional weld it out but that would drive the cost up. But I plan on having a conversation with someone at No Limit before I make a final decision either way.

- Skippy

[jim-bob]

Thanks for the reply Skip..I also was interested in the Trailing Arms Kit but after talking to ROB he feels I will like the Fat Bar system better beings my truck is a 67 GMC with leaf springs..My disappointment was to find out that the Complete IFS that I wanted will have to have 16" or larger wheels because of the 12" rotors (I guess)..Learned this out only after bout 1/2 doz emails with Rob..I mentioned more than once that I AM NOT a mechanic..I already have my 15" wheels..OH Well..I like the looks of their front suspension so much that I may go ahead and get 17" wheels..
Are You thinking about using their Front Suspension?

[PGSigns]

Going LS may help with you budget. Here is a comparison between my two trucks. My 66 got a new GM crate engine for the 95 to 99 trucks with the vortec heads, ad intake, carb, ignition, cam, water pump and the rest of it along with a fresh 700R4 with a electronic lock up kit and I as at $4400. For the 65 I bought a complete pull out 5.3 and 4l60E with 31000 miles on it for $1700 and a new harness for $500. Stuff like headers hoses mounts are a wash between the two and I am sore when the 65 is done it will run better, longer and on much less fuel than the 66 does now.
Jimmy