454 Occasional Lifter Tick

[BigRandy]

My 74 C10 454 with 105,000 miles will occasionally develop a hard lifter clack after it's warm that will last for maybe a minute or two then go away. It's done it twice that I know of. The engine is smooth and quiet otherwise even when starting after sitting for days.

I don't know the full history of the truck but have service records from the original owner up to 89K when he sold it. I bought it with 103K miles and have put on another 2K, swapped it to HEI, new plugs, wires, fresh fluids and filters from bumper to bumper.

The engine is stock, and as far as I can tell it's never been open. The service records show it was in Wyoming most of its life whee it received regular oil changes with Quaker State 10W30. The truck is in S Texas now and I switched to conventional 15W40 HDEO with a Purolator filter.

The oil was a little dirty when I got it but not filthy black. I've seen a lot worse.

Oil pressure is 55-60 cold, 45+ on the highway and around 30-34 at hot idle in drive. Never lower.

Could it be the oil or does this sound like a lifter going bad? Maybe trash in the lifter caused by the HDEO loosening up some 44 year old gunk? I'm ready to change the oil again but if the 15W40 could be causing this I'll go with something else. Interesting note: The owners manual recommends 20W50 in hotter climates. Too bad the 20W50 today isn't the same as it was in '74.

She's an ugly old buzzard but I like her.

[truckster]

I would run some Marvel Mystery Oil through it. I've had great success with MMO solving hydraulic lifter problems.

[BigRandy]

Originally Posted by truckster

I would run some Marvel Mystery Oil through it. I've had great success with MMO solving hydraulic lifter problems.

Thanks truckster

I've heard about MMO for years and never a bad word about it, unlike some additives. I read your message and picked up a bottle on the way home.

According to the directions MMO should be used everywhere and often, but how is this normally used in the real world? Should I leave it in for the life of the oil or drain it after a few miles?

[truckster]

It won't hurt anything to leave it in the crankcase. I would put it in there at least a couple of days before you get ready to change oil.

[Mike C]

Agree with the above. I have a 71 GMC with a 402 in it I got cheap and it had bad lifter noise. I put quart of MM oil in it and quieted down a bunch. Need to do T-stat now as it seems stuck open and won't get hot. Looking to get some real temp in the oil before I change it.

[BigRandy]

Originally Posted by Mike C

Agree with the above. I have a 71 GMC with a 402 in it I got cheap and it had bad lifter noise. I put quart of MM oil in it and quieted down a bunch. Need to do T-stat now as it seems stuck open and won't get hot. Looking to get some real temp in the oil before I change it.

I put the MMO in it and ran it for about 15 minutes tonight Wasn't clacking at the time but I believe the idle smoothed out. It idled okay before but seems smoother now. Could be my imagination.

My temp gauge or sending unit is screwy. According to the gauge in the dash it was running cold when I got it so I replaced the T-stat with a 180 but it didn't help. The gauge still only gets to the first mark.

I'm going to drain the 15W40 soon and put another bottle of MMO in it and run that for a while. Maybe the HDEO got some trash moving that wound up in a lifter.

[Alex V.]

If you do the MMO and it still comes back intermittently I'd put some thinner oil (Rotella T5 10w30, Valvoline Maxlife 10w30/40, etc.) in it and put the prescribed dose of Seafoam in 500-1000 miles before the next change. That's plenty of oil pressure so I personally wouldn't run a 15w40 unless I was towing heavy, a lot.

I ran Schaeffer's syn blend 15w40 in my '85 C3500 (got it at 77K, 128K now) and while I don't believe it did any damage to the engine, when I changed to 10w30 of the same line about 10,000 miles ago the truck's manners improved substantially and oil pressure stayed within 5-7 PSI of what it was. My dad was of the old school that, quote, "If you put 10w30 in a big block you'll be looking through it in short order" but as I slowly gained more knowledge of oil chemistry improvements since the time of our trucks I have no fear in using a thinner grade because modern lubes don't shear (get thinner with use) nearly as much as they used to.

Also, I use Maxlife in 90% of the vehicles that come through my shop, from Honda's to Chevy 6.0's and Vortec 350's; it has shown some very good results, including keeping engines in one piece through repeated 15-20,000-mile oil change intervals. I also can usually notice some internal cleanup over a couple correctly spaced changes. I believe Schaeffer's cleans better than Maxlife but that coupled with it not being a high mileage formula seems to have the possibility to open up leaks if it's already leaking some or right on the brink. My 454 leaks quite a bit of it but that's just more motivation to re-seal the whole thing and adjust the valves in one fell swoop.

[BigRandy]

I guess I'm just naturally restless when it comes to oil and noises, so after reading this blog on everything anyone could ever ask about oil, I drained the 15W40 with 2K miles and poured in a pint of MMO and filled it with Penz 10W40 high mileage. I don't care for HM additives but it is seeping a little around the rear main seal. Not enough to leave spots but enough to stay wet. Another reason I went with Pennzoil high mileage is because the blog also rates it very high. But hell, I don't know what's good anymore. Years ago I ran nothing but Castrol GTX but oils aren't like they used to be.

It's probably my imagination but I'd almost swear it runs smoother now.
Oil pressure dropped a little but still just a little over 30 at 700 hot and a between 45-50 hot at 2500RPM.

My reason for using 15W40 in the first place was because I bought the truck in the summer and knew I would be pulling a loaded trailer 550 miles with it very soon. Talk about a leap of faith! The guy I bought it from only drove it once in a while to keep the battery up. It had the look, feel and smell of something that hadn't been used in a long time, and I had put maybe 200 miles on it before time came to hit the interstate for a 9 hour drive. The truck and a tandem axle trailer were loaded and it ran great. Never missed a beat - or a gas station.

I have a question about the Seafoam. Should that be added during the oil change or shortly before? It's pretty watery and looks like a solvent. I've used it for years in the fuel but never in a crankcase.

Thanks for the help!

R

[Boog]

Back in the 70's some 454's developed occasional lifter peck. If I recall correctly a factory service bulletin instructed to drill a small hole in a oil galley plug at the front of the motor. Apparently the 73-74 years oil didn't bleed off quick enough in the lifter oil galley and the oil got too hot and thin causing the peck.
My Dad had a 72 Chevy wrecker with a 74 454 that did this is the reason I know of the TSB. We replaced the #1 cylinder lifters twice but the issue returned. We drilled the galley plug on that engine and it took care of the issue.
I don't remember the size of the hole we drilled in it though. It was 1975.
Member Keith Seymore has worked for GM forever and may have more info about it.

[BigRandy]

Originally Posted by Boog

Back in the 70's some 454's developed occasional lifter peck. If I recall correctly a factory service bulletin instructed to drill a small hole in a oil galley plug at the front of the motor. Apparently the 73-74 years oil didn't bleed off quick enough in the lifter oil galley and the oil got too hot and thin causing the peck.
My Dad had a 72 Chevy wrecker with a 74 454 that did this is the reason I know of the TSB. We replaced the #1 cylinder lifters twice but the issue returned. We drilled the galley plug on that engine and it took care of the issue.
I don't remember the size of the hole we drilled in it though. It was 1975.
Member Keith Seymore has worked for GM forever and may have more info about it.

Great info. Thanks. This explains the issue I had years ago with a 454 in my 73 that always ticked. I'm guessing GM no longer supports that TSB. :-)

This motor is super quiet even cold after sitting for days. Just does it occasionally once it's warm. Since we have a few more months of cool weather and I won't be towing I went to 10w40. I've put 150 miles on it since the change and so far it's okay. As infrequent as it was I'll need to go another 100 or so to know if it helped.

I appreciate the TSB tip. Thanks.

[BigRandy]

Okay, I thought the pecking was gone but it's back. I've got maybe 100-150 miles on the Pennzoil 10W40 High Mileage. I put 6-1/2 quarts of oil and half a quart of MMO in it. Maybe I should have used a full quart or more of the MMO since it takes 7 to fill it up. The reason I didn't is because it looks pretty thin. I also don't know if it's good to run it for the full OCI which may be 3000 miles. The bottle says to use it at every oil change but that's likely a marketing thing to sell more. The motor wasn't terribly dirty when I bought the truck but I've been changing it at shorter intervals to clean out any crud that might have been in there.

Oil pressure still looks good even while clacking so I don't think it's a starvation problem. When hot tit's straight up 30 at 700 RPM and 50'ish at 2K and above.

The pecking is weird tho. It can sit for days and start up smooth as glass. The only time it will clack is after it's been warmed up, shut off and restarted again, but only once in a while. The clack will start gradually and then fade away after letting it idle 3-4 minutes. No way to make it do it. It might clack or it might not.

I can try adding more MMO since it holds more than most V8's. Also thought if it was a valve sticking I night try treating it through the fuel.

Anyone know of a good valve cleaning product to add to the fuel or dribble down the intake? I remember when I was a kid some guys swore that ATF would work wonders on cleaning valves but I don't remember how effective it really was.

I don't see what it would hurt to try it other than maybe fouling the plugs, but that Slobberjet card is so rich right now that the plugs are likely gas fouled anyway. They were 2000 miles ago when I kitted the carb. It runs much better but floods easily so I'll be going back in soon with a new float and to check the jets\metering rods. It's just overall running entirely too rich. Although it has 3.73's and a TH400 I can't do better than about 7 MPG on the highway at 2800 RPM. City MPG is 5.

Unless someone says not to do it I'll drain a little oil and add some more MMO. I'm really trying to avoid the TSB fix Boog mentioned if I can help it.

Thanks!

[geezer#99]

I use water to clean the valves and piston tops. Trickle a little into the carb. Steam cleans the chambers.
ATF works but can be quite smoky. Neighbors might get excited. Lol!

On your mileage quest.
What carb?
What’s your initial timing?

[truckster]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

I use water to clean the valves and piston tops. Trickle a little into the carb. Steam cleans the chambers.
ATF works but can be quite smoky. Neighbors might get excited. Lol!

TRICKLE is the key word here. I like to use a squirt bottle. Steam works really well for cleaning cylinders - if you've ever looked at an engine that's had a head gasket leaking coolant into one of the cylinders, it's amazing how clean that one cylinder can be. Just remember that water is not compressible, so too much can hydrolock your engine and make really bad things happen.

[BigRandy]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

I use water to clean the valves and piston tops. Trickle a little into the carb. Steam cleans the chambers.
ATF works but can be quite smoky. Neighbors might get excited. Lol!

On your mileage quest.
What carb?
What’s your initial timing?

Sure. thanks.

Quardajet.


I rebuilt it right after getting the truck, The reason was because of extreme flooding to the point that it wouldn't run unless I gave it lots of throttle so it wouldn't drown in fuel. Found the tiny itty bitty bas#%@d clip at the back of the float was missing.

I cleaned everything, looked at the jets and rods and put it back together. The poly-plastic float was stained white like it had been sitting in bad gas but I didn't have a replacement. I think it needs one.

It starts easy, no well plug leaks, but once warm if I so much as touch the accelerator when I hit the starter it will instantly flood. I pulled one of the plugs and it's wet and black. What I mean by wet is I can wet my finger just touching the plug.

I saw the seller later and mentioned the carb kit. He said that was not the original carb but one recently rebuilt by a carb guy who built it for him specifically for that motor.

I'm not knocking the carb guy's experience because I only know enough to be dangerous, but even if I was an expert I don't think I could confidently
take an unmatched Qjet and do a rebuild for a specific motor I'd never see and call it "ready."

Figuring there was more to learn about the carb problem I did some digging using the part number and the carb belonged on a later 70's motor with a manual transmission.

If I had known all of this before I rebuilt it myself I would have checked for the correct jets and rods, but I didn't look so I have no idea what the carb guy did to make it "ready" for my '74 454.


Initial timing is either 12 or 14. I've tried both and pretty sure I have it at 12BTDC. I should be more current on my info but have been busy working on the house to do much with the truck.

Thanks again.
Randy

[BigRandy]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

I use water to clean the valves and piston tops. Trickle a little into the carb. Steam cleans the chambers.
ATF works but can be quite smoky. Neighbors might get excited. Lol!

I think I'll dribble a quart of ATF for fun and tell the neighbors I'm helping my son with his science project, then follow up with a spray bottle to steam clean it.

[BigRandy]

Originally Posted by truckster

TRICKLE is the key word here. I like to use a squirt bottle. Steam works really well for cleaning cylinders - if you've ever looked at an engine that's had a head gasket leaking coolant into one of the cylinders, it's amazing how clean that one cylinder can be. Just remember that water is not compressible, so too much can hydrolock your engine and make really bad things happen.

It's been a while but I have. It's amazingly clean. I'll use something like a windex bottle. Any rule of thumb as to hoe much or how long you spray it?

[geezer#99]

You too!
House renovations!
We’re doing the kitchen. Getting tired of the drywall countertops though.
If you find time and want to compare what your original carb should have inside to what the carb you have should have in it, then find the info here.

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/foru...ad.php?t=88376

I’ve had quads like that too. If you touch the pedal you might as well go nap for an hour before trying to start it.

[truckster]

Originally Posted by BigRandy

It's been a while but I have. It's amazingly clean. I'll use something like a windex bottle. Any rule of thumb as to hoe much or how long you spray it?

The idea behind using the spray bottle is it's very unlikely you'd be able to spray too much water. I just do it until I get tired of spraying.

[grubsster]

When I had a very similar situation as you are describing I went as far as resetting all the rockers, then I changed all the rockers and pushrods, then I did a lot more research and found that a worn fuel pump or fuel pump rod can cause one to go crazy trying to find the lifter tick. Not to mention the possibility of an arcing plug wire or exhaust leak. I'd do the screwdriver/ extension stethoscope and find the offending lifter also checking the fuel pump drive rod, which was my issue...

[GM man]

As a rule, I'm not a big believer in oil additives, but recently my mechanic recommended I try a bottle of Rev X additive. It's expensive ($35 for 4oz bottle) but it worked wonders for me. Put it in a Ford with 3.5 ecoboost with over 250k miles and cold start up was very loud. Now it's silent. Since then I've put it in all my vehicles. No lifter noise from my wife's 5.3 anymore. You might give it a try.

[hjewell2]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

I use water to clean the valves and piston tops. Trickle a little into the carb. Steam cleans the chambers.
ATF works but can be quite smoky. Neighbors might get excited. Lol!

On your mileage quest.
What carb?
What’s your initial timing?

I remember adding water to the carb while running to clean the valves, never knew if it did anything, I was 16 at the time.

[BigRandy]

Originally Posted by GM man

As a rule, I'm not a big believer in oil additives, but recently my mechanic recommended I try a bottle of Rev X additive. It's expensive ($35 for 4oz bottle) but it worked wonders for me. Put it in a Ford with 3.5 ecoboost with over 250k miles and cold start up was very loud. Now it's silent. Since then I've put it in all my vehicles. No lifter noise from my wife's 5.3 anymore. You might give it a try.

I'm not a fan either. Have a friend of mine who swears by MotorKote so strongly he is almost ready to buy me a bottle to prove it.

I sort of trust MMO a little more since it's been around for decades and I never heard anything bad about it. I only added half a quart in a motor that takes 7 so I think I'll drain enough to get the rest in there, and try the water trick and see if it helps.

The clack is very random but loud when it's there. Only does it after it's warm and then only once in a while.

I'll toss my HF stethoscope in the front seat and maybe get to play doctor in a Walmart parking lot in a few days.

It could be the fuel pump rod but my good ear tells me t's near cyls 1 and 3.

Thanks much everyone. I appreciate the replies!

Had to edit and add this useless info:

I get 5MPG
Assuming it did better in it's younger years it may have a lifetime average of 6MPG
It's got 105,000 miles on it now
At 6 MPG it's used 17,666 gallons of fuel.
I'd say the fuel pump is getting a good workout.