1969 C50 4x4 Axle Swap?

[txagincali]

Hey Guys,

Has anybody out there successfully swapped their front I-Beam axle over to a 4wd axle? Not referring to the Napco or Rockwells 2.5 ton axles, but more like a Dana 60 out of the 01-04 Ford F350 line since they didn't have spring perches cast into the housing yet.

I know it is a lighter duty axle, but I am converting my C50 Fire Truck into a DuraBurb with a C50 front end. The weight will be reduced given the shorter frame, no flat bed with PTO, and definitely not hauling loads. I want it 4 wheel drive as an option but given its size, length and wheelbase, it won't be doing any rock crawling. I want the 4.10 or 3.73 axles and 8 lug although I realize the Ford bolt pattern will differ from the AAM 11.25" rear diff but gearing will match and be more highway friendly.

Just curious if anyone has had any success in the swap or if there are any other options out there short of building a $3500 axle from scratch.

[sweetk30]

maybe a even better option is the f450 and f550 axle as there a tad wider and much bigger parts over the f250 and f350 axle . then do a matched pair of axles and be done with it . and at the same time it gets you much closer to the gvw weight spec of th axle as the truck will be so you wont be hurting it as much . also gets you 19.5" rims and tires at the same time .

[txagincali]

Originally Posted by sweetk30

maybe a even better option is the f450 and f550 axle as there a tad wider and much bigger parts over the f250 and f350 axle . then do a matched pair of axles and be done with it . and at the same time it gets you much closer to the gvw weight spec of th axle as the truck will be so you wont be hurting it as much . also gets you 19.5" rims and tires at the same time .

Thanks k30 for the suggestion.

I had looked at the F450/550 route but the main issues I had with those for my build (being under a suburban):

1. You wind up with the 10 lug bolt pattern and then have to run commercial wheels/tires or get a turned down 22.5" rim to 22" which allows slightly more variation in tire selection. Or an insanely expensive aftermarket set

2. It does have a wider front axle track (2011 F450 DRW = 74.8" vs 2011 F350 68.3") but I'd like to maintain an 8 lug bolt pattern (whether 8x6.5 or 8x170 etc) but with having a deeper (more negative) offset will help allow for the lack of width the F350 axle provides.

Other than adding in the suburban body and a Duramax/Allison, the weight of the truck will be well down from its original >9,000 and GVWR of 15000 won't ever be touched.

Do you think running an F350 axle in general is too weak for this truck's weight to handle? A 2004 F350 ranged from 5400-6900 lbs with GVWR 9900-11000.

[Campbel45]

a couple of options come to mind..

#1. You may check out rtechfabrications and their instagram. He has a couple pictures posted using the original chassis and springs (may have taken some out of the spring pack) with chevy dana 60 and 14 bolt swapped in. If your not hauling big weights I don't see an issue with 1-ton parts.

#2. Swap the body over to a 4x4 chassis. I believe the front clip of the medium duty trucks swap over to the light duty.

#3. If your wanting to keep it medium duty, you might look at a rockwell f106 front axle.

[txagincali]

Thanks for the response Cambel, some good ideas.

Yep RTech is actually the one that has given me inspiration for my original truck build (Drill Sergeant) to something bigger like the Duke until I ultimately landed on the Suburban which he had a rendering made.

I liked the idea of a Chevy 1 ton axle setup but they are a PASSENGER SIDE DROP as opposed to the Ford which are a DRIVERS SIDE DROP. The DMax & Allison are a Drivers Side Drop which was why I was looking hard at Dana 60. Add to that I have the Duramax donor which has the AAM 11.5" rear end in 3.73 but I also have a different 2500 work truck with 4.10s. Both gear ratios Ford F350's have had from the factory (easier to swap, gearwise anyways).

The C50 chassis I have is already setup to fit a DMax and Allison, so I figured it would be easier to figure out the front axle swap issue instead of trying to fit the C50 front end to the half ton 4x4 chassis. I have seen a few threads that start fast but end just as quickly on here when they see the fenders run 6+ inches shorter than C10 fenders and way too much chassis work is involved there after, not to mention the kick up.

[txagincali]

This has always been my inspiration for the build. I'll likely go Black instead of Red, but Red does work as well. I can't take credit for it as I took it from RTech (ATVrider I believe is his screen name) and I can't wait until he gets his suburban painted!

[sweetk30]

the newer axles are all srw axles and the BOT ON ADAPTER makes them drw . so by unbolting the adapter you are now a srw axle and most i remember are 8 lug with out the adapter on them . but i cant verify this 100%

i know the 450-550 front axle alone uses bigger u-joints at the wheel and i think ball joints are bigger . i know the rear is a eaton based med duty axle so the stuff is beefy as hell .

[Pvmt-Pndr]

I cut this from your other thread and pasted it here before I read the entire thread.

It depends on what generation D60 you go with also. Everyone wants the king pin in the mud truck world to get away from ball joints, those axle shafts actually taper down while the newer ball joint style does not, making the newer style stronger.

If you go with a 60 that has the leaf mount cast into the housing (80-04) but it doesn't align with what you need I've seen guys cut the cast slot off all the way around the housing. In a 4 link setup it's quite a pain working around that but is doable. It also needs to be welded and strengthened after doing that.

I'm with sweetk30 if you're going to go that route go with bigger axles. Not only would you have the strength and possible 19.5" rim option depending on what you go with but you could also swap the front suspension to a coil spring. I have done this and it can be done very easily, it doesn't cost much, doesn't take much time and the added ride quality is leaps and bounds over what a leaf sprung front end is like. Not to mention if you go with a newer (Ford for instance) D60 05+ all the provisions would already be on the axle ready to drop in. At that point you would only have to mount spring perches on the frame and make a mount for a track bar. I'll throw this in also if you go F450/F550... your gear options are more then just 3:73/4:10s. If I recall correctly 4:30 was a gear option that was used more often then not in those axles.

I can verify that the AAM rear axle that dodge was using is a srw/drw by bolting and unbolting.

Depending on the weight of your truck which I can't imagine is going to be too heavy I would say as long as your tire height is reasonable that a set of 1 ton axles would be just fine for what you're doing. My old f250 weighed in at 8020 lbs and had a D50 front axle that was all good and well until I put 38x15.5R20s on it and bound the front end... busted the spider gears. The D60 is a nice step up from the D50.

I would consider F106 axles but not for what you're doing. They're great axles but the pumpkin is in the center and not off set like one tons are. You would probably have to lift your truck quite high to make sure you don't interfere with the engine pan. If you're using the original tcase from the Allison which is off set then by no means would that be a good option for you unless you decided to go with some sort of aftermarket transfer case like an SCS but that will set you back $2k+ (even used) and I believe the minimum being for one of those is 12.66"... also not a good option.

I would also like some clarification on what you posted. You said "I liked the idea of a Chevy 1 ton axle setup but they are a Drivers Side drop as opposed to the Ford which are a Passenger Side Drop. The DMax & Allison are a Passenger Side Drop which was why I was looking hard at Dana 60. Add to that I have the Duramax donor which has the AAM 11.5" rear end in 3.73 but I also have a different 2500 work truck with 4.10s. Both gear ratios Ford F350's have had from the factory (easier to swap, gearwise anyways)." ......Now as far as I know Ford has always been a drivers side drop and the older chevys were passenger side drops, did you just happen to get your wiring backward? If the duramax and Allison are in fact passenger side drop them you should actually be looking for an older Chevy axle. I even went into my arsenal of pictures to verify and the D60 Ford I was using for a project is in fact a driver side drop.

[Drewbee]

Hey Pvmt-Pndr,

This is someone else thinking the same thing I was asking in a different thread. Awesome, I’m going to follow this thread for the info.

I think txagincali is wanting to use the 1 tons like the rtech k50 build. I’m not looking to haul anything needing a two ton truck. It’s mainly for the looks. It looks like the c50 chassis will accept a Dana 60 on the front and 14 bolt on the back without really any modification. However, I may be wrong that’s why I was asking. If it does, you could build off the c50 chassis and have an overkill platform for a huge 1 ton truck.

[Pvmt-Pndr]

Thanks for setting me straight, I should have looked. Either way my response apply to both of you about equally.

[Campbel45]

Not to persuade you to one method or the other - just adding ideas.. although the Rockwell F106 is indeed centered, it can be altered. You would just need to make new axle shafts for when you cut/modify the axle housing.

Heres a couple links of companies that deal with F106 axles:

https://www.gearheartsgarage.com/app...1131508?page=1

http://www.trbmachine.com/

[txagincali]

Originally Posted by Pvmt-Pndr

I would also like some clarification on what you posted. Now as far as I know Ford has always been a drivers side drop and the older chevys were passenger side drops, did you just happen to get your wiring backward?

Thank you Pvmt-Pndr, you are spot on with your post. For clarifications sake, my original post on DS or PS drop for the Ford vs Chevy is flipped, thanks for the catch, I'll fix it right now. DMax and Allison are DRIVERS SIDE DROP, along with Ford D60 Front Axles. Older Chevy's are Passenger Side Drop.

The F450/550 gear ratios I've seen available start at 4.30 and go to 4.88's and even higher if I recall correctly. While my tire size will be larger to fit the wheel wells, I still will mostly be using the truck for cruising and camping so I'd like to stay with 3.73's-4.10s for the highway manners, but also for costs since I happen to have both from donors. Also allowing for 8 lug wheels which leaves open any wheel/tire combo imaginable.

And really digging into the D60 setups is where I'd love to hear some opinions. King Pin vs Ball joint strength arguments aside, the reason I was eyeing the 2001-2004 Ford F350 front axles is that they are leaf spring only. I do like the idea of running a coil spring with trailing arms, but I haven't found anyone/anywhere that has made that setup work on a flat and straight beam chassis. When looking at all the chassis of today, they tend to taper inwards the closer to the grill you go. That offset allows for a spring to mount on one side, and the trailing arms to install to the other without interference. On a straight frame, I don't see that working out quite as well without an awkward looking mounting plate or shock tower that sticks way out.

You say you've run that setup before? Have you done it on a C50 or similar chassis? I'd love to hear more about it.

[Drewbee]

pvmt pndr - hey no worries! I'm actually glad someone else was talking about it as well and you pointed me in the right direction.

As for a Dana 60 ball joint vs king pin, I always side with king pin. I've been rebuilding one and it looks daunting, however I say if I can do it, I think anyone can.

Also, I know it's a common sense thing as things get bigger they usually get heavier, so if you do rebuild one be careful.

Unfortunately, I've let a few choice words fly will banging on the thing.

[Pvmt-Pndr]

Honestly for either of your applications king pin or ball joints don't matter just about any version of it will work great... the main reason the off road wants the kingpin D60 vs the ball joint is well it's a kingpin but aside from that there is a about 3 extra inches on the tube on the (78/79 Ford for sure) driver side between the pumpkin and the thingy that slips my mind currently. That added 3" or so makes it a lot easier to run a 4 link setup. Later king pin models had the leaf spring mounts cast into the pumpkin. Which eats up the 3" or so on the tube. This is the version I had and it was a royal pain to work around when building a 4 link

We all know how ball joints are. Get a cheap set... well they're going to last about as long as a cheap set should. Spend the money where you don't want to touch again for awhile.

I'll throw this in just because I haven't touched on it yet. If you go with a 78/79 Ford king pin it should be priced around $1000 average in my area on average with 4:10 gears this is the most expensive option from a private seller. All other versions the last I looked which has been a couple of years should be somewhere just over half of that, so $600 ish. Give or take a couple hundred. I waited a long time before I purchased my 1 tons and was able to find my D60 and a rear D70HD for $800 both with 4:10 gears. Personally I would pony up a little more money and go with the F350 axles from a super duty for the simple fact the rear will have disc brakes also. My D70HD came with drum brakes and I made my own brackets and mounting hardware and converted it to rear disc also. That didn't cost much because I'm a journeyman millwright who can build about anything out of metal and get paid to build it at work but I will say it was very time consuming.

The swap I did was a mid 80s D60 that I have no idea what it was out of (I ran the numbers). The chassis I was using was a 1989 econoline 2wd that already had coil springs. I just made some not so fancy mounts on the axle and called it good. Oh and the best part was I slapped a 1953 willys truck on the frame with the 460 under the hood!! I did end up having to move a lot of things around with the suspension multiple times until I got it right though.

Now if either of you do go with a 2001-2004 D60 make sure it is in fact a D60!! You don't want to pay D60 money for a D50! They are identical from the ball joints out.

As far as the duramax/Allison goes I wouldn't throw the idea out the window about a set of 4:30s. You haven't said what size tires you are planning to run. Is the Allison 5 or 6 speed? I had a Cummins with a 6 speed auto on 35, 31s and 33" tires with 4:10 gears and it was an awesome combination for everything even with the 3 different sizes I ran. Plenty of gearing down low to get moving in a hurry (600hp) and the double OD had it running around 1400/1600 rpm at 60-70 ish.

Do your homework beyond me also guys. I'm not what I would call an expert I've just played around with what you guys are hitting on a lot of seems like and have done a lot of research myself. I'll keep answering any questions you have to the best of my knowledge though. Hell I might even post a picture of the Willy I was building if anyone wants to see it. It was a dedicated mud truck that I never finished because someone gave me enough money I would have been dumb to say no to.

[Drewbee]

The reason I’m asking is because I have a dana 60, 14 bolt, nv4500, np205 and 12v cummins. If the axles will bolt in, I may do a crew cab like rtech, but I’d like to get an idea of what I’m getting into. I realize sometimes if you have to ask you shouldn’t be doing it, but sometimes you have to jump in. Also, I like to learn from the experience of others before learning the hard way. 😀

[sweetk30]

well 2 of you guys were tering up others threads at the same time asking the same basics so i got mixed up on who was who .

so here ya go from the other thread i posted in .

1ton down is setup for 2.75" wide stock leafs . aftermarket like lift kits go 2.5" you cant cut in the the housing for 3" wide unless you do a home brew u-bolt conversion as you will loose the 2 bolt holes for the spring plate .

the width for a dana 60 front is 32" center to center .
the 1ton rear for a 14ff is 40.5" center to center and 2.5" wide springs .

the rear can be worked around a bit but the front has the pass side spring mount cast in to the diff housing .